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choiwonsuh
11-20-2008, 1:45 AM
I'm sure this has been asked before, but I didn't get a clear answer from searching the forum...

Is concealed carry of a loaded firearm at one's own business (retail store) legal without a CCW permit?

Anyone else here carry at their business, and what do you carry?

THANK YOU.

Steve O
11-20-2008, 1:52 AM
your property? private property?

should be.

dark45
11-20-2008, 2:17 AM
i believe thats a whole difrent permit. at my local boozing hole the guy carrys a 357 snub not sure of the model.

JDay
11-20-2008, 3:12 AM
i believe thats a whole difrent permit. at my local boozing hole the guy carrys a 357 snub not sure of the model.

Its not a permit, there is a provision in the law that says its legal to carry at ones place of business. If you do not own the business I believe you need permission from your employer although the code is not clear on that.

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.

choiwonsuh
11-20-2008, 3:45 AM
What I'm not clear about is whether or not the concealed firearm can be LOADED.

Librarian
11-20-2008, 9:37 AM
What I'm not clear about is whether or not the concealed firearm can be LOADED.

The answer, I think, is "probably" and "it depends". The critical item is whether the business can be considered "any public place" for purposes of PC 12031.

That's not settled. A quick, non-professional survey of the court cases turns up a number of 12031 violations at the superior court level and higher, and almost all are "public street" and associated with gang members.

All we can reasonably do at this point is suggest you consult your own attorney, get an opinion you trust, and then act in your own best interests.

My personal decision in that circumstance would be to carry loaded and concealed and not worry about it. But there's no comforting bit of explicit PC or case law to conclusively demonstrate that is always legal.

Glock22Fan
11-20-2008, 9:45 AM
As far as I'm aware, behind doors which can be locked to keep people out, the owner(s) of the business can carry loaded and concealed. Employees can carry loaded and open (but not concealed) with the owners' permission and do not need any other permit to do this. Customers can carry open and unloaded with the owners' consent (except perhaps in a school zone).

Of course, if they have CCW's they can all carry concealed

kenjimatic
11-20-2008, 10:18 AM
sorry to thread jack..

but what if the owner is a close relative and the business supposedly don't have any employees(family owned), will it be legal to conceal and carry without a permit?

Backcountry
11-20-2008, 10:24 AM
That's already been explained... you must have the permission of the business owner.

I own my own business and I carry whenever I want (loaded). If my employees want to carry they have to check with me first. I don't allow it for a number of reasons, mostly liability and the fact that I don't feel any of my employees are well trained enough in firearms handling and use of deadly force that I would trust them to not put my business in jeopardy from a liability standpoint. That is my right as the business owner. If they don't like my decision they can quit and start their own business.

They know that if a shootout happens they are to hit the deck while I perforate the scum.

Ironchef
11-20-2008, 10:40 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=129041
I asked this same question recently. Excellent answers inside.

Owner/leasee can openly or conceal carry on the property without any permit. He can authorize his/her employees to only openly carry.

That's about it. Pretty much the same as in the home.

choiwonsuh
11-20-2008, 12:00 PM
It's confusing because in the parts of section 12031 that's often been quoted here in this forum, it says you can have a loaded firearm on the property (subdivision H), says you can carry a loaded firearm when in immediate and grave danger (subdivision J) or making an arrest, etc...

It doesn't seem to plainly say, "Sure, you can conceal carry a loaded gun at your store everyday, just in case. It's your right!" It's either you keep it on the property but not on your person, or you need to be in immediate danger to carry... Unless I'm missing something in all the confusing law-speak.

I think Librarian is right. I shouldn't worry about concealed carrying a loaded gun at my store... I suppose the idea is to be discrete and remember that a gun is for avoiding danger, not causing it... I will look into talking with an attorney though. Thanks.

tpliquid1
11-20-2008, 1:00 PM
is it legal to carry assault weapon open?

Librarian
11-20-2008, 1:55 PM
is it legal to carry assault weapon open?

If you're in a place where it's legal to carry an aw at all, sure.

Most don't meet the definition of 'capable of being concealed', so they could also be carried concealed.12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
Just an oddity that only certain kinds of weapons invoke the carry concealed prohibitions - it's not necessarily a good idea.

Ironchef
11-20-2008, 2:09 PM
It's confusing because in the parts of section 12031 that's often been quoted here in this forum, it says you can have a loaded firearm on the property (subdivision H), says you can carry a loaded firearm when in immediate and grave danger (subdivision J) or making an arrest, etc...


The 12031 confusion seems to be stemming from where you are and when you can do it.

For example, as you stated, you can have the loaded gun on the property (private or business). THe part that looks like it might be confusing you is the grave danger part. That is assuming you're off your property and are exempt from 12031 because you are stopping the threat of bodily harm or death from someone, or effecting an arrest...OFF your property/business.

So while on your property, 12031 doesn't apply. When off your property and you are effecting an arrest or stopping bodily harm or death, you can bring your loaded gun there (or load your unloaded gun)..and of course you'd be calling 911 and waiting for the cops so they can draw down on you as you exercise your rights to defend human life..and the bad guy runs away, and you get your gun taken away..blah blah blah! (big reason to wisely pick when you help someone)

JDay
11-20-2008, 2:42 PM
That's already been explained... you must have the permission of the business owner.

I own my own business and I carry whenever I want (loaded). If my employees want to carry they have to check with me first. I don't allow it for a number of reasons, mostly liability and the fact that I don't feel any of my employees are well trained enough in firearms handling and use of deadly force that I would trust them to not put my business in jeopardy from a liability standpoint. That is my right as the business owner. If they don't like my decision they can quit and start their own business.

They know that if a shootout happens they are to hit the deck while I perforate the scum.

If one of them ever goes postal you know who they're coming for first. Personally I wouldn't let them know I was packing.

JDay
11-20-2008, 2:50 PM
Where in that penal code does it say that only the owner can carry concealed? I do not see where anyone is getting that part.

Librarian
11-20-2008, 3:17 PM
Where in that penal code does it say that only the owner can carry concealed? I do not see where anyone is getting that part.

12025 says it's illegal to carry concealed.

12026 says, in part, 12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
The issue is whether the citizen or resident has control over the property - Machtinger (http://www.gunlawpress.com/) calls it a "possessory interest", and since he's a lawyer I'm pretty sure that's the correct term; owners have it, employees generally do not.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-20-2008, 3:21 PM
Where exactly in the PC do you see any restriction for an employee to CCW while at work with the owners permission?

Meplat
11-20-2008, 3:24 PM
You help someone if they are in danger of death or great bodily harm. Not a lot of picking to be done there. If someone is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, you act. Youd draw. You shoot. buy the time you call 911 the aggressor should no longer be capable of fleeing and you should no longer be "brandishing".:43:
(big reason to wisely pick when you help someone)

JDay
11-20-2008, 3:40 PM
12025 says it's illegal to carry concealed.

12026 says, in part, The issue is whether the citizen or resident has control over the property - Machtinger (http://www.gunlawpress.com/) calls it a "possessory interest", and since he's a lawyer I'm pretty sure that's the correct term; owners have it, employees generally do not.

I get what you're saying here but the only part I see about ownership is the "or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident" part. Still don't see anything that says you must own your place of business. The reason I said earlier you would need the business owners permission is because of other parts of the law that say you cannot conceal carry on private property without permission.

sorensen440
11-20-2008, 3:43 PM
If I work somwhere isnt that my place of bussiness regardless of ownership??

JDay
11-20-2008, 3:59 PM
If I work somwhere isnt that my place of bussiness regardless of ownership??

Thats what I would think.

fairfaxjim
11-20-2008, 4:37 PM
If I work somwhere isnt that my place of bussiness regardless of ownership??

If you are not the business owner, then you are an employee if you work there, it is your place of employment, the owner's place of business.

The owner can carry loaded & concealed in his place of business. With the owner's permission, you can carry loaded, but not concealed. In you own home, you can carry both loaded and concealed because it is your property, not a public place or on a public street.

Codelphious
11-20-2008, 4:42 PM
If you are not the business owner, then you are an employee if you work there, it is your place of employment, the owner's place of business.

The owner can carry loaded & concealed in his place of business. With the owner's permission, you can carry loaded, but not concealed.

I don't buy this.

I can carry concealed in my own home. If I invite people over they can carry concealed as well, if I allow them. I simply don't see the difference in logic, or in law, that differentiates the two (business vs. residence).

Librarian
11-20-2008, 5:40 PM
I get what you're saying here but the only part I see about ownership is the "or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident" part. Still don't see anything that says you must own your place of business. The reason I said earlier you would need the business owners permission is because of other parts of the law that say you cannot conceal carry on private property without permission.
Machtinger says the person must have a 'possessory interest' - generally the right to exclude other people from the premises - see Revenue and Taxation Code, 107 107. "Possessory interests" means the following:
(a) Possession of, claim to, or right to the possession of land or
improvements that is independent, durable, and exclusive of rights
held by others in the property, except when coupled with ownership of
the land or improvements in the same person. For the purposes of
this subdivision:
(1) "Independent" means the ability to exercise authority and
exert control over the management or operation of the property or
improvements, separate and apart from the policies, statutes,
ordinances, rules, and regulations of the public owner of the
property or improvements. A possession or use is independent if the
possession or operation of the property is sufficiently autonomous to
constitute more than a mere agency.
(2) "Durable" means for a determinable period with a reasonable
certainty that the use, possession, or claim with respect to the
property or improvements will continue for that period.
(3) "Exclusive" means the enjoyment of a beneficial use of land or
improvements, together with the ability to exclude from occupancy by
means of legal process others who may interfere with that enjoyment.


I think you are slipping on an overload of the term "your" - in this case, according to a lawyer who specializes in gun law, the 12026 "your" is ownership.

But feel free to hire a lawyer and get your own opinion (which, if you pay for it, is both "yours" and the lawyer's).

Ironchef
11-20-2008, 6:53 PM
You help someone if they are in danger of death or great bodily harm. Not a lot of picking to be done there. If someone is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, you act. Youd draw. You shoot. buy the time you call 911 the aggressor should no longer be capable of fleeing and you should no longer be "brandishing".:43:

You can act. I'll make sure there's less variables that can turn on me. I'm still more important than that man or woman getting beat down or shot at. If i didn't have a wife and kids, it'd also be easier. If you haven't read mas ayoob's "gravest extreme" book, it'll more than teach these variables and make the choice harder than just doing the hero bit.

Backcountry
11-20-2008, 7:56 PM
If one of them ever goes postal you know who they're coming for first. Personally I wouldn't let them know I was packing.

Most don't... the ones that do, if they ever go postal, I'll put my training and constant situational awareness up against their getting the jump on me and lack of training any day. In simplest terms... bring it.

choiwonsuh
11-20-2008, 9:01 PM
The 12031 confusion seems to be stemming from where you are and when you can do it.

For example, as you stated, you can have the loaded gun on the property (private or business). THe part that looks like it might be confusing you is the grave danger part. That is assuming you're off your property and are exempt from 12031 because you are stopping the threat of bodily harm or death from someone, or effecting an arrest...OFF your property/business.

So while on your property, 12031 doesn't apply. When off your property and you are effecting an arrest or stopping bodily harm or death, you can bring your loaded gun there (or load your unloaded gun)..and of course you'd be calling 911 and waiting for the cops so they can draw down on you as you exercise your rights to defend human life..and the bad guy runs away, and you get your gun taken away..blah blah blah! (big reason to wisely pick when you help someone)

Subdivision H confused me the most perhaps... it says that 12031 can't keep a person "from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business." It doesn't say CARRY... just says you can HAVE it on the property. Whereas the word "carry" is explicitly used in other subdivisions, like the part about carrying when in grave danger. It's confusing...

edit. And 12025 says you can carry concealed to protect property/business, but doesn't explicitly say the weapon can be LOADED.

fairfaxjim
11-20-2008, 9:02 PM
I don't buy this.

I can carry concealed in my own home. If I invite people over they can carry concealed as well, if I allow them. I simply don't see the difference in logic, or in law, that differentiates the two (business vs. residence).

Nothing to buy, nobody is selling anything. Don't try using logic in this, there really isn't any.

In the law, 12025 is concealed carry.
12025 (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

The exception that allows concealed carry in residence or business is 12026:

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the application of Section 12031.

This section does not provide any authority to allow others to carry concealed at either your residence or business. C specifically states that 12031, loaded firearms, still applies, 12025/12026 only deal with concealed carry, not loaded.

Having (note this does not specifically say carry) a loaded firearm in your business is covered in 12031(h):
PC12031 (h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property.

This does allows the "person engaged" in business, and anyone authorized by them to "have" a loaded firearm at that business. This is for loaded only, not concealed.

A loaded firearm at your residence is:
PC12031 (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

Note that this paragraph does NOT give the authority to authorize others to have a loaded firearm in your residence as paragraph h specifically does.

Realistically, do I think there is a chance that you or your friends will get busted for this in your own home, not really. However, the law appears to only allow you in your own home, both concealed and or loaded, only you in YOUR business concealed, and loaded by anyone authorized by you in your business. It gets even a little stickier in the business environment when, even though private business property, it becomes a "public" place.

This is not legal advise, simply my understanding of the PC on this issue.

Librarian
11-20-2008, 9:21 PM
Subdivision H confused me the most perhaps... it says that 12031 can't keep a person "from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business." It doesn't say CARRY... just says you can HAVE it on the property. Whereas the word "carry" is explicitly used in other subdivisions, like the part about carrying when in grave danger. It's confusing...

edit. And 12025 says you can carry concealed to protect property/business, but doesn't explicitly say the weapon can be LOADED.
12026(b) does say carry - (b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, 12031 is loaded in a public place - as I pointed out earlier, the crux is whether the business is a "public place" - if it's not, then carry loaded is fine.

tenpercentfirearms
11-21-2008, 5:23 AM
Yeah I would like to see the local cops try to bust your employees for concealed carry on your business property. If you have owner permission, do it. If you don't, don't. If you are Army, just open carry straight into the gun shop and screw what the red-headed shop owner thinks! :D

Max-the-Silent
11-21-2008, 5:47 AM
I won't name names, but a certain agency got in a little hot water over the arrest of a business owner who was CCW on his premises.

The story is that some customer made a complaint (not brandishing, the customer was "concerned" that "the man had a gun") and an officer responded, and asked the guy if he was carrying, who answered in the affirmative... and you know what happened next.

The guy attempted to explain to the arresting officer that he was legally carrying, the officer of course ignored him, and the city ended up making a pay-out.

If you are on your property, or you are on private property with the consent of the owner, you can carry open or concealed.

A little screwy exception to this is with uniformed security guards. To the best of my knowledge when a private property owner employs uniformed security guards, said guards have to have the state guard card and the firearm permit and can not carry concealed.

Army
11-21-2008, 8:08 AM
If you are Army, just open carry straight into the gun shop and screw what the red-headed shop owner thinks! :D

Yeah!!

:D

JDay
11-21-2008, 8:21 AM
I won't name names, but a certain agency got in a little hot water over the arrest of a business owner who was CCW on his premises.

The story is that some customer made a complaint (not brandishing, the customer was "concerned" that "the man had a gun") and an officer responded, and asked the guy if he was carrying, who answered in the affirmative... and you know what happened next.

The guy attempted to explain to the arresting officer that he was legally carrying, the officer of course ignored him, and the city ended up making a pay-out.

If you are on your property, or you are on private property with the consent of the owner, you can carry open or concealed.

A little screwy exception to this is with uniformed security guards. To the best of my knowledge when a private property owner employs uniformed security guards, said guards have to have the state guard card and the firearm permit and can not carry concealed.

How can you tell us about something without giving us facts to back it up? We need names and dates.

fairfaxjim
11-21-2008, 9:01 AM
I won't name names, but a certain agency got in a little hot water over the arrest of a business owner who was CCW on his premises.

This is specifically exempted from PC 12025 (Concealed Carry) in PC12026 Perfectly legal for business Owneres to do, and for you to do in your private residence or private property "owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident."

If you are on your property,

This is also specifically exempted from PC 120025 in PC 12026, and from PC1231(a)(1) (Loaded carry) in PC12031(h).

or you are on private property with the consent of the owner, you can carry open or concealed.

PC12031(h) exempts loaded carry for "or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business,". PC12025 does not have, at least that I can find, a similar exemption for CCW for employees or other non business owners.

I also cannot find any exemption to either 12025 or PC12031(a)(1) for invitees, guests or others, besides the resident or lawful possesor.

Like I said before, I seriously doubt that you or your friends are going to get nailed, but if something goes down and LE ends up in your face, only you are covered by the PC for CCW or loaded carry, as far as I can tell, at your residence/property.

A little screwy exception to this is with uniformed security guards. To the best of my knowledge when a private property owner employs uniformed security guards, said guards have to have the state guard card and the firearm permit and can not carry concealed.

This comes into play from the Department of Consumer Affairs, who regulate the training and issue of guard cards. There is a whole separate bureau in Consumer Affairs, Bureau of Security and Investigative Services (BSIS) that regulate private guards and investigators. Even active duty LEO's working off duty as gards are required to have BSIS issued certificates for exposed carry and a guard card. They don't have to duplicate any training, but do have to apply for and get the certs.

sorensen440
11-21-2008, 9:52 AM
regardless of if you can conceal carry while at work I dont see a legal way to transport it there :(

Glock22Fan
11-21-2008, 10:03 AM
I don't buy this.

I can carry concealed in my own home. If I invite people over they can carry concealed as well, if I allow them. I simply don't see the difference in logic, or in law, that differentiates the two (business vs. residence).

Doesn't matter if you buy it or not. Doesn't matter if you think it is logical or not.

That's the law. Like it or not.

Librarian
11-21-2008, 11:57 AM
regardless of if you can conceal carry while at work I dont see a legal way to transport it there :(
Unloaded in a locked case, just like any other person, or unloaded openly carried in a holster. Load when you get inside.

Tunnel vision - it's not just for lawyers any more! :):)

Omega13device
11-21-2008, 3:54 PM
12031 is loaded in a public place - as I pointed out earlier, the crux is whether the business is a "public place" - if it's not, then carry loaded is fine.
Librarian got it right. If your place of business is a public place and you carry loaded you're in violation. What's public vs. non-public? I don't know. The Overturf case dealt with an outdoor location (apartment building driveway, and it was the owner of the apartment building) but didn't address public/non-public for an indoor business location.

Max-the-Silent
11-21-2008, 4:24 PM
How can you tell us about something without giving us facts to back it up? We need names and dates.

Because I'm disinclined to tell tales out of school.

It happened in the 90's, the business is no longer in operation, and the officer involved found gainful employment elsewhere, eventually.

Throw the BS flag if you so choose.

XDshooter
11-21-2008, 6:42 PM
Two laws will get you into trouble here.

12025 Concealed carry
and
12031 Loaded carry (concealed or open)


Open carry is legal per this PC
12025(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.Concealed carry at you place of business is legal per this PC (DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS PUBLIC OR NOT)
12026 (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. Loaded carry is legal per this PC (AGAIN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS PUBLIC OR NOT)
12031(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property. Loaded carry whether concealed or open is legal at your place of business.

Librarian
11-21-2008, 6:51 PM
Two laws will get you into trouble here.

12025 Concealed carry
and
12031 Loaded carry (concealed or open)


Open carry is legal per this PC
Concealed carry at you place of business is legal per this PC (DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS PUBLIC OR NOT)
Loaded carry is legal per this PC (AGAIN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS PUBLIC OR NOT)
Loaded carry whether concealed or open is legal at your place of business.
Putting on my GuyW hat here, (h) allows HAVING loaded but not CARRYING loaded.

The 12031 public/private unclarity is what is gumming up the works for loaded - 12026 has carry entirely covered. In fact, the Overturf case caused 12026 to be rewritten on exactly this point - carry at home or at one's business was made explicitly legal. Loaded carry in private is also legal - but whether a particular business premises is public or private is a matter that is not settled.

I agree with your conclusion: I think - without PC or case law to back it up - that loaded concealed carry in one's own business is fine.

XDshooter
11-21-2008, 6:55 PM
I think the fact that many gun store employees are armed is sure enough reason for it to be okay.

Unless there is some part of 12031 that specifically exempts them.

Librarian
11-21-2008, 7:01 PM
I think the fact that many gun store employees are armed is sure enough reason for it to be okay.

Unless there is some part of 12031 that specifically exempts them.
I think that's positive evidence that enforcement goes that way. My experience has been that those employees generally open carry - but if they're not loaded I'd be REALLY surprised.

GuyW
11-21-2008, 8:04 PM
I think the fact that many gun store employees are armed is sure enough reason for it to be okay.


You betcha - they have a great grasp of the legalities...

(how many gunstore FUD threads are here at CalGuns??)
.

Omega13device
11-21-2008, 9:59 PM
Concealed carry at you place of business is legal per this PC (DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS PUBLIC OR NOT)
12026 (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. Concealed yes, but unloaded only. Note that you left out 12026(c), the last section, which is critical because it says, "Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the application of Section 12031." Of course 12031 is loaded carry so the point is that 12026 is not an exemption from 12031.



Loaded carry is legal per this PC (AGAIN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS PUBLIC OR NOT)
12031(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property.Loaded carry whether concealed or open is legal at your place of business.

Your comment that it doesn't matter if it's public or not is INCORRECT. It does matter because of the difference between "have" and "carry". The exemption in (h) is only to "have" a loaded firearm, not to carry one. Please re-read the very beginning of 12031:

12031(a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in avehicle while in any public place or on any public street in anincorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in aprohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So...you may not carry in a public place. The exemption in 12031(h) is only for "having" a loaded firearm. This was decided in Overturf (http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html).

Again this returns to the question of whether your business is a public place. If it's a public place you can have a loaded firearm but not carry it. If it's not a public place you can carry loaded/open or loaded/concealed. The "place" at issue in Overturf was a driveway and I suppose one could make some very good arguments that a business with four walls and a door isn't public in the same way that a driveway is. I'm not an expert in the definition of "public place" though. As for gun stores, well, I just think it's common sense that no LEO is going to walk into a gun store and start arresting employees for carrying loaded. Whether that standard applies to other businesses is an open question.

XDshooter
11-21-2008, 11:26 PM
You betcha - they have a great grasp of the legalities...

(how many gunstore FUD threads are here at CalGuns??)
.


Your sarcasm doesn't make any sense. Gunstores go the other way on legalities, meaning not coming even close to the line. While this would be right on it.

XDshooter
11-21-2008, 11:45 PM
Concealed yes, but unloaded only. Note that you left out 12026(c), the last section, which is critical because it says, "Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the application of Section 12031." Of course 12031 is loaded carry so the point is that 12026 is not an exemption from 12031.

Your comment that it doesn't matter if it's public or not is INCORRECT. It does matter because of the difference between "have" and "carry". The exemption in (h) is only to "have" a loaded firearm, not to carry one. Please re-read the very beginning of 12031:

I never said 12026 exempts you from 12031. Don't misconstrue what I said. I said 12026 exempts you from concealed carry meaning 12025.




12031(a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in avehicle while in any public place or on any public street in anincorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in aprohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So...you may not carry in a public place. The exemption in 12031(h) is only for "having" a loaded firearm. This was decided in Overturf (http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html).

Again this returns to the question of whether your business is a public place. If it's a public place you can have a loaded firearm but not carry it. If it's not a public place you can carry loaded/open or loaded/concealed. The "place" at issue in Overturf was a driveway and I suppose one could make some very good arguments that a business with four walls and a door isn't public in the same way that a driveway is. I'm not an expert in the definition of "public place" though. As for gun stores, well, I just think it's common sense that no LEO is going to walk into a gun store and start arresting employees for carrying loaded. Whether that standard applies to other businesses is an open question.


Wasn't aware of that case law. It looks as thought they went through "carry" and "having" which sucks.

E Pluribus Unum
11-22-2008, 12:18 AM
This brings up an interesting question....


I have been told that with regards to a motorhome, the rules are different.

I have heard that while on a public roadway, a motorhome is a vehicle. While on private property, plugged into commercial power, it is a residence.

I have also heard that it has limited "residence" protections even on the roadway. For example, in the "coach area" one can have an open container of alcohol and it is legal. When pulled over, with probable cause, the police can search the immediate area of the driver, but cannot search the coach.

In this most recent issue with my motorhome, they had a hard time towing it because they had no authority to gain entry to turn the wheels. Because my motorhome is a Class A motorhome, there are no driver/passenger doors. There is only the two coach doors. I had a firearm in the vehicle and I was afraid that they would do an inventory search and find it. In the entire process of towing the vehicle they never opened the coach door to do a search or to turn the wheel. I was told by my LEO friend this was because, as a class A motorhome, there is no separation from a "coach area" and a "driver's area" and because it qualifies as a residence, any search would have required a search warrant.

If this is the case... concealed, loaded, carry would be legal in the coach area even while on a public street.

I also heard of a California case where taxi cab drivers used the "workplace" exemption to carry a concealed weapon in their cabs. If one ran a home business out of his motorhome, one would think that too would qualify.

What say you guys? :)

fairfaxjim
11-22-2008, 6:48 AM
This brings up an interesting question....


I have been told that with regards to a motorhome, the rules are different.

I have heard that while on a public roadway, a motorhome is a vehicle. While on private property, plugged into commercial power, it is a residence.

I have also heard that it has limited "residence" protections even on the roadway. For example, in the "coach area" one can have an open container of alcohol and it is legal. When pulled over, with probable cause, the police can search the immediate area of the driver, but cannot search the coach.

In this most recent issue with my motorhome, they had a hard time towing it because they had no authority to gain entry to turn the wheels. Because my motorhome is a Class A motorhome, there are no driver/passenger doors. There is only the two coach doors. I had a firearm in the vehicle and I was afraid that they would do an inventory search and find it. In the entire process of towing the vehicle they never opened the coach door to do a search or to turn the wheel. I was told by my LEO friend this was because, as a class A motorhome, there is no separation from a "coach area" and a "driver's area" and because it qualifies as a residence, any search would have required a search warrant.

If this is the case... concealed, loaded, carry would be legal in the coach area even while on a public street.

I also heard of a California case where taxi cab drivers used the "workplace" exemption to carry a concealed weapon in their cabs. If one ran a home business out of his motorhome, one would think that too would qualify.

What say you guys? :)

Check Machtinger's book "How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail". He claims that a more recent case, People v. Wooten, has stated that a business must be in a fixed place. That goes back to your first question, is a parked motorhome a "fixed" place. People v. Melton is cited as the case law for your residence having to be a fixed place, with the example of if you live in a van, the van driving down the road is not your residence. It has to be parked. I have no idea if that means on a public street, or not.

sorensen440
11-22-2008, 7:30 AM
Unloaded in a locked case, just like any other person, or unloaded openly carried in a holster. Load when you get inside.

Tunnel vision - it's not just for lawyers any more! :):)

I was under the impression that you had to be going to or from a specific destination but it would appear after some research that this was hashed out and turned out not to be the case.

Omega13device
11-22-2008, 11:45 AM
I was under the impression that you had to be going to or from a specific destination but it would appear after some research that this was hashed out and turned out not to be the case.

Correct, as long as you are going to or from your vehicle for any lawful purpose, and the firearm is unloaded in a locked container, you're legal. For example, from car to your place of business, to your house, to the range, etc., or from any of those places back to your car.


12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Librarian
11-22-2008, 12:07 PM
[ Imagine the iconic general store of the early 1900s. Wood floor, pot-bellied stove, rocking chairs complete with geezers whittling. http://www.mainepuzzles.com/Images/Lee-Stroncek-Jigsaw-Puzzles/6171_The_Olde_General_Store_Jigsaw_Puzzle_md.jpg

A geezer speaks: ]

Librarian: "I remember, back in ought-6, or mebbe ought-7, me and MudCamper had some righteous go-rounds about 12026. Yep, I useta think that ol' .2 was a list a places yeh were allowed to go with yer pistols, and goin' any place else, well, yeh were taken a chance, kinda.

Took a while, but ol' MudCamper convinced me I were wrong about that. And sometime later a young fella came by, with a letter from some Johnny at the DOJ, sayin' they din't much care 'bout how long yeh carried yer gun in the trunk o' yer car, s'long as it were unloaded.

Gee whillikers! Stay off those school properties and yeh could even drive around with yer pistols locked in the trunk, not that mosta yer John Law types would know it were legal."

Other geezers, in chorus: "Shaddap, y'old fool!" :)

sorensen440
11-22-2008, 12:11 PM
Correct, as long as you are going to or from your vehicle for any lawful purpose, and the firearm is unloaded in a locked container, you're legal. For example, from car to your place of business, to your house, to the range, etc., or from any of those places back to your car.

Yeah I get it now
I was bitten by the rare calguns fud bug.

choiwonsuh
11-24-2008, 10:20 PM
The mere fact that this question had to be so deeply debated just goes to show what an anti-2nd amendment state we are in. "Carry vs have, loaded vs unloaded, public vs not public, penal code this, exemption that..." God, can't I, a law abiding citizen, just do whatever it takes to defend myself? Isn't that my right?

Thank you all for the info.

CA_Libertarian
11-25-2008, 6:47 AM
As we know from the Overturf decision, the courts differentiate between 'carry' and 'possession'. It may only be legal to 'possess' a loaded firearm that is not 'carried.' This is obviously very bad case law, but it is law.

Liberty1
11-25-2008, 7:31 AM
As we know from the Overturf decision, the courts differentiate between 'carry' and 'possession'. It may only be legal to 'possess' a loaded firearm that is not 'carried.' This is obviously very bad case law, but it is law.


Still this doesn't apply where 12031 is not applicable such as non-public areas.

Justice
11-25-2008, 8:02 AM
I would also like to add to the above carrying-in-a-locked-case scenarios that one can also carry BETWEEN any of the places listed in .2. That is, from the range, to your friend's house to have your gun serviced etc., not just always back to your car like it was a FedEx hub.

GuyW
11-25-2008, 9:17 AM
God, can't I, a law abiding citizen, just do whatever it takes to defend myself? Isn't that my right?

I'll quote what I once heard in that context:

"We have LAWS in this state, son".
.

choiwonsuh
11-25-2008, 10:00 PM
I'll quote what I once heard in that context:

"We have LAWS in this state, son".
.

Yeah... gotta wonder who the laws are for sometimes... "By the people, for the people"?