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MP301
11-19-2008, 5:32 PM
[B]BConcealed Carry: Stack the Salami [/]


By Chris Knox
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(October 14, 2008) Most of us are familiar with the “salami” illustration – the analogy of gun owners losing our freedoms one tiny piece at a time like a salami being sliced extra thin. With each oh-so-reasonable “first step” our rights are gradually diminished. What enables that “salami” strategy is that the other side is smarter than we are – they are willing to take what they can get, and when that doesn’t “work” they use it as evidence that more is needed. Meanwhile many in our movement look for a total repeal of existing gun laws and consider acceptance of anything less to be the rankest compromise of principle.

This finally came home for me personally just recently. I long resisted the idea of getting Concealed Carry of Weapons (CCW) permit. My Second Amendment fundamentalism just balked against the idea of being fingerprinted and investigated to prove that I’m an upstanding citizen. My spirit railed against taking a class to learn which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, and most of all, against paying a fee to put my name on a list just to be given a state-issued slip of paper.

Open carry in my state of Arizona has long been the law of the land and I have routinely taken advantage of it. Working a day job in a corporate environment I don’t carry everywhere I go, but some occasions that I have carried, I have pushed the envelope. That weapon in my briefcase? Well, officer, it’s not in my “immediate control,” as stated in Arizona Revised Statutes Title 13 Section 3102, not to mention if you know it’s there, it must not be concealed. Fortunately I’ve never had the issue come down to a real test and for that I’m thankful.

But in recent years I’ve come to rethink my doctrinaire views. The light dawned as I became exasperated listening to a fellow Second Amendment purist fulminate that Congress should immediately introduce legislation to repeal at least the 1968 Gun Control Act, the 1986 machine gun ban, and the 1934 National Firearms Act, and that furthermore any legislator who wouldn’t agree to immediately introduce such legislation was obviously and enemy of freedom who should be impeached. I may be exaggerating, but not by much.

It has finally occurred to me that my fundamentalism is playing into the hands of the anti-gun movement. I’ve been demanding that my team throw a Hail Mary pass on every play while the other side is pushing us back a yard at a time. It’s time – past time – that we fundamentalists (carefully) join those who have stolen a page from the other side’s playbook.

I’ve decided to start stacking the salami up and my first step is to grit my teeth and get my CCW permit. I no longer see obtaining the permit as just complying with an onerous law – which I still believe it is. Instead, I view getting the permit like showing up at a gun rights rally. It’s a way to stand and be counted. Anonymously packing has its merits, but there’s not much to build a political movement there.

My fundamentalist view of the Second Amendment hasn’t changed – I still consider the CCW permit an infringement on my Second Amendment rights. In an ideal world, I would tuck my .45 into a holster, not worrying if my jacket covered it or not, and go about my business. I would go to work, to the bank, the post office, to school, or to the airport to catch a plane to New York City, all without worrying about some misguided busybody’s unreasonable fear of weapons and armed people. Yes, I’m a Second Amendment utopian. But that’s not the world I live in. And wishing won’t make it so.

Exercising the right to carry, even within the confines of a permit system, expands our Second Amendment rights. Note that I don’t consider a permit law “Right to Carry” legislation and I cringe when I hear friends call it that. However the permit is a tacit admission by the State that such a right does exist. It remains to us, the law-abiding gun owners, to work to further that right.

Gun prohibitionists would really like to ban all guns, but they’ll take some restrictions as a “good first step.” I’ll appropriate their line. I’d like to see the privilege of carrying expand to a full-fledged right. But for now, lawfully carrying under the permit system is a good first step. The key is in the follow-up. As we establish that law-abiding citizens don’t become gunslingers when they put a holster under their jacket, it becomes easier to further loosen the restrictions – the infringements. And, like our mentors the gun prohibitionists, we can call each ratcheting back of infringements on the right to keep and bear arms just another “good first step.”



Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at www.FirearmsCoalition.org. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108.

©Copyright 2008 Neal Knox Associates

rayra
11-19-2008, 8:13 PM
meh. He can try to re-frame it anyway he likes, it's still a compromise with Evil.
But personally I'd do it. I'm already in so many databases it doesn't make one whit's difference. Nor would it alter my expected reaction when confiscation is finally attempted.
So might as well go along with it for my own personal defense and legal ***-covering until That Day.

Meplat
11-19-2008, 9:23 PM
I used to have the same outlook and still have many friends that do. They refuse to say "mother may I" even though we live in a CCW friendly county. I changed my mind and now have a CCW. It irks me that my friends will not take advantage of an opportunity that fellow Californians would give their left nut for.

I have a question of an Arizona gun owner. I have a CA permit. I assume it is not good in AZ. From time to time I work in eastern Imperial County and go into Yuma for lunch. When I do this I put my gun in the center console of my truck (yes I know it is not accepted as a "container" in CA but is OK if you have a CCW) with the lid closed. Thereby remaining CA legale as the gun is supposed to be concealed in CA. As I cross the river into AZ I open the lid to make the weapon plainly visible to comply with AZ law.

Do you think I'm legale doing it that way?


[B]BConcealed Carry: Stack the Salami [/]


By Chris Knox



(October 14, 2008) Most of us are familiar with the “salami” illustration – the analogy of gun owners losing our freedoms one tiny piece at a time like a salami being sliced extra thin. With each oh-so-reasonable “first step” our rights are gradually diminished. What enables that “salami” strategy is that the other side is smarter than we are – they are willing to take what they can get, and when that doesn’t “work” they use it as evidence that more is needed. Meanwhile many in our movement look for a total repeal of existing gun laws and consider acceptance of anything less to be the rankest compromise of principle.

This finally came home for me personally just recently. I long resisted the idea of getting Concealed Carry of Weapons (CCW) permit. My Second Amendment fundamentalism just balked against the idea of being fingerprinted and investigated to prove that I’m an upstanding citizen. My spirit railed against taking a class to learn which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, and most of all, against paying a fee to put my name on a list just to be given a state-issued slip of paper.

Open carry in my state of Arizona has long been the law of the land and I have routinely taken advantage of it. Working a day job in a corporate environment I don’t carry everywhere I go, but some occasions that I have carried, I have pushed the envelope. That weapon in my briefcase? Well, officer, it’s not in my “immediate control,” as stated in Arizona Revised Statutes Title 13 Section 3102, not to mention if you know it’s there, it must not be concealed. Fortunately I’ve never had the issue come down to a real test and for that I’m thankful.

But in recent years I’ve come to rethink my doctrinaire views. The light dawned as I became exasperated listening to a fellow Second Amendment purist fulminate that Congress should immediately introduce legislation to repeal at least the 1968 Gun Control Act, the 1986 machine gun ban, and the 1934 National Firearms Act, and that furthermore any legislator who wouldn’t agree to immediately introduce such legislation was obviously and enemy of freedom who should be impeached. I may be exaggerating, but not by much.

It has finally occurred to me that my fundamentalism is playing into the hands of the anti-gun movement. I’ve been demanding that my team throw a Hail Mary pass on every play while the other side is pushing us back a yard at a time. It’s time – past time – that we fundamentalists (carefully) join those who have stolen a page from the other side’s playbook.

I’ve decided to start stacking the salami up and my first step is to grit my teeth and get my CCW permit. I no longer see obtaining the permit as just complying with an onerous law – which I still believe it is. Instead, I view getting the permit like showing up at a gun rights rally. It’s a way to stand and be counted. Anonymously packing has its merits, but there’s not much to build a political movement there.

My fundamentalist view of the Second Amendment hasn’t changed – I still consider the CCW permit an infringement on my Second Amendment rights. In an ideal world, I would tuck my .45 into a holster, not worrying if my jacket covered it or not, and go about my business. I would go to work, to the bank, the post office, to school, or to the airport to catch a plane to New York City, all without worrying about some misguided busybody’s unreasonable fear of weapons and armed people. Yes, I’m a Second Amendment utopian. But that’s not the world I live in. And wishing won’t make it so.

Exercising the right to carry, even within the confines of a permit system, expands our Second Amendment rights. Note that I don’t consider a permit law “Right to Carry” legislation and I cringe when I hear friends call it that. However the permit is a tacit admission by the State that such a right does exist. It remains to us, the law-abiding gun owners, to work to further that right.

Gun prohibitionists would really like to ban all guns, but they’ll take some restrictions as a “good first step.” I’ll appropriate their line. I’d like to see the privilege of carrying expand to a full-fledged right. But for now, lawfully carrying under the permit system is a good first step. The key is in the follow-up. As we establish that law-abiding citizens don’t become gunslingers when they put a holster under their jacket, it becomes easier to further loosen the restrictions – the infringements. And, like our mentors the gun prohibitionists, we can call each ratcheting back of infringements on the right to keep and bear arms just another “good first step.”



Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at www.FirearmsCoalition.org. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108.

©Copyright 2008 Neal Knox Associates

MP301
11-19-2008, 9:55 PM
Meplat,

Yeah, I used to feel the same way, but Knox is right...they (the anti-gunners) have been smarter then us! If we dont play the game, how can we prove that they are full of it? Good example is the latest number of permits issued in Florida is around 1.5 million, but the number of permits revoked is 167! I thank that little tidbit of info shows that normal people carrying a gun is not, and never will be the problem.

As far as the question you asked regarding Arizona...I lived there for years...they arre the only open carry state that actually prctices it that I am aware of...Coming from Ca when I moved there,, I was simply amazed at this because I would see people wearing guns and nobody cared....

Now check this out...Out of the shall isue states that Arizona is one of, they are also a state that automatically recognizes permits from other states without a reciprocity agreements! Your permit for Ca is good in Az,Ut,Id,Mt,Sd,Ok,Tx,Mo,Tn,Ky,In,Mi. Ak and Vt do not require a permit to carry concealed if you can legally own a gun.

WWW.handgunlaw.us is the best and most up to date resource for this info....they have a real cool interactive map...just click on the state you have a permit for and ii shows which states honor it. Of course, read the disclaimer..things chage so its always a good idea to check with the state you are agoing to...

Also...It is a bad idea to put guns in glove boxes and center consoles, regardless of permit for many reasons...if you have a permit or are going to open carry, keep it on you! Does no good igf you are away from your car or leave it there to be stolen...plus cops simply freak when your reaching for your reg and there is a gone there!

Joe

CCWFacts
11-19-2008, 10:17 PM
I agree with the gist of what he's saying here. We need to keep the goals in mind (full restoration of our freedom and rights) but we need to understand that it must be done incrementally and with some tactical thinking. It's a lot easier to say "from my cold dead hands". Or as one poster here said, "I won't join the NRA but I'll shoot if they come to confiscate my guns". Or "McCain is anti-gun because he supported NICS for all transactions". And so on. But we need to think in subtler ways about how to get to our goal.

CCWFacts
11-19-2008, 10:22 PM
I have a question of an Arizona gun owner. I have a CA permit. I assume it is not good in AZ.

Amazingly, your CA permit is valid in AZ.

Honestly, the practicalities of CA's system are so deficient, I don't see how any other state could accept them. There's no reasonable method for any AZ LEO to check the validity of the permit and it's unlikely they could distinguish real rice paper from fake rice paper or from real-but-not-properly-issued rice paper. We really need to upgrade our permits, in the sense of making them DL-style plastic cards with photos, and having a centralized database and a single call-in number that LEOs could use to verify them.

But regardless of that, your permit is valid in AZ, even though it's nearly impossible for an AZ LEO to quickly and accurately determine if it is valid or not.

yellowfin
11-19-2008, 11:07 PM
^ similarly we and the people out of state need to start demanding that out of state permits be honored here.

gravedigger
11-19-2008, 11:19 PM
I agree with MP301. Incremental encroachment is how the liberals are making so many advances. It is time to fight back ... incrementally! We need to make them start worrying about "The slippery slope of Conservatism!"

Part of the reason they are advancing so quickly, is because they are not wasting all of their time resisting our forward movement. The liberals are throwing up so much flak that we are spending all of our energy countering their B.S. Lets toss up a whole ****load of flak ourselves!

Spend a few bucks and register your family members with the NRA, the GOA or the pro-gun flavor of your choice. I'm going to give 1-year NRA memberships as Christmas gifts this year. They might line the bird cage with "Freedom First," but I'm betting they'll read it first!

It is not enough for conservatives to sit there and say, "Isn't that terrible." If it is terrible, get up off of your duff and DO something about it!

JDay
11-20-2008, 4:26 AM
Now check this out...Out of the shall isue states that Arizona is one of, they are also a state that automatically recognizes permits from other states without a reciprocity agreements! Your permit for Ca is good in Az,Ut,Id,Mt,Sd,Ok,Tx,Mo,Tn,Ky,In,Mi. Ak and Vt do not require a permit to carry concealed if you can legally own a gun.

In Alaska and Vermont you have to be a resident to conceal carry without a permit.

WWW.handgunlaw.us is the best and most up to date resource for this info....

I have to disagree, http://www.carryconcealed.net/ is up to date and much easier to navigate.

falawful
11-20-2008, 4:41 AM
"In Alaska and Vermont you have to be a resident to conceal carry without a permit."

WRONG!!

MP301
11-24-2008, 12:35 AM
Yeah, you dont have to be a resident to ccw in Ak or Vt...plus, www.handgunlaw.us is what the state of Nevada apparently refers people. like myself, to for the most updated info...example, i just compared the two sites using my permits and your (carryconcealed.com) site says mine are not good in New Mexico, even though they are as handgunlaw.us shows..

CA_Libertarian
11-24-2008, 11:48 AM
I agree we have to 'stack the salami,' but I don't think getting a CCW has that effect. If you really want to 'be counted' just donate your gun-rights tax to a worthy pro-gun organization.

Further, I would argue that using the system damages our cause. Any time you pay a tax or take a test your are accepting that you are earning a privilege. You send the message that 'this is acceptable.'

You know they used to say, "the pen is mightier than the sword." Perhaps we should require a tax and test to make sure nobody is injured by these dangerous words! Who here would willingly pay a tax and take a test in order to have the right to read a newspaper?

MP301
11-25-2008, 12:22 PM
You really cant compare apples and oranges..1st and 2nd amendments are very different things.... As far as the CCW issue, you have it wrong....as was said before, the anti gun folks have been smarter then us..they chip away and chip away in small increments and little by little take away our rights.

The attitude some have is of an all or nothing type thing...and please tell me, hows that working for you? Can you legally carry a gun without a permit? No. Do you own an assualt rifle and if you do, is it CA compliant or do you just say if you cant have it your way, you dont want one at all? No.

The thing is, there anti gun methodology of taking small steps has been working. They get some BS law passed in the name of safety and then when it doesnt work (and it never does), they say that more is needed!

Getting a CCW is important because it adds to the statistics that normal people with guns is not the problem and never was. Since Florida has issued in the area of 1.5 million permits and only 167 have been revoked....and apparently only 3 of those were for some type of gun crime, that proves our position quite nicely, dont you think? Kinda hard for some stuffed shirt to say that with all these people having guns there will be blood in the streets, when we can prove that this is a lie!

Increments....look at the "Shall issue" laws that we now have in some 30 states. That was done incrementally, state by state, little by little, just like the anti gun folks have been doin to us.

Lets all get on the same freakin page here. Get what you can when you can and keep chipping away at the anti gun position whereever and whenever possible. Its the only way this will work. And lets not cry about a little money spent...whats your 2A worth to you? Whats your life wort to you? $100? $1000? How much?

Joe

CA_Libertarian
11-26-2008, 6:48 AM
You really cant compare apples and oranges..1st and 2nd amendments are very different things....

I disagree. I think the issues are very similar. Both serve the same purpose: to protect us from our government. The only reason I value the 2A slightly higher than the 1A is that if the 2A falls, the rest are rather easily taken.

...The attitude some have is of an all or nothing type thing...and please tell me, hows that working for you? Can you legally carry a gun without a permit? No. Do you own an assualt rifle and if you do, is it CA compliant or do you just say if you cant have it your way, you dont want one at all? No.

Yes, I can and do carry a gun without a permit. I do so within the law. Others I know of carry loaded and concealed without permits. One man claims to have been doing exactly that for over 50 years. He reports that it is working out nicely for him. Both of us enjoy similar levels of self-defense capability; neither of us did anything to compromise our morals.

I don't own an 'assault rifle' simply because I've not had the opportunity to buy/build one yet. Again, there are people that push the limits while complying while others simply ignore the stupid laws. Then there are those that paid for the privilege to own an AW.

...And lets not cry about a little money spent...whats your 2A worth to you? Whats your life wort to you? $100? $1000? How much?

First off, I never complained that the 'gun privilege' tax is too high. I would refuse to pay it if it were $0.01! It's not that I'm cheap (which I am); it's that I have principles.

What's your 2A worth? You would pay a tax to enjoy a greatly diminished privilege just to avoid having to spend time in jail to exercise your right? If people were willing to put their body (instead of their money) where their mouth is we wouldn't have such greatly diminished rights! If you pay for a CCW permit, you are simply paying the government not to persecute you. We usually call it bribery when an individual pays for special treatment from the government.

When our rights are infringed upon, we need to be removing tyrants from power. Paying them for doing it is not a solution.

Lee F. Smith
11-26-2008, 7:41 AM
Talk about your flying pig alerts...are they abandoning the scorched earth approach? I think I have heard this incremental victory stuff before.:rolleyes: