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armandolo
11-18-2008, 11:41 AM
I want to know who and where do I write a letter asking a legality of a firerms in CA before I purchase it. Any suggested letter content?

I wanted to purchase an Arsenal Saiga SGL10 and a reputable CA firearms dealer who initialy had no issues, changed their mind and did not want to do the transfer due to the Arsenal SGL being so close to Arsenal SLG on the Kasler List.

I talked to a guy named Mike Kelly at CA DOJ and he seemed to thinks that the SGL10 rifle as long as it does not have Category 3 features is ok in California (he even looked through the Arsenal Website). I want to find out for sure in writing

tmuller
11-18-2008, 11:48 AM
Good luck...

rayra
11-18-2008, 11:49 AM
The link's right on the main page of this site (calguns)

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html

Bureau of Firearms
Contact Us

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Telephone Numbers
General Information

Phone: (916) 263-4887

Fax: (916) 263-0676


Firearm Dealer Licensing

Phone: (916) 263-8100

Fax: (916) 263-0790


Firearm Transaction Denials and Delays

Phone: (916) 227-3749

Fax: (916) 227-3744


Assault Weapon Registration and Special Weapon Permits

Phone: (916) 263-8100

Fax: (916) 263-0790


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Bureau of Firearms Addresses
Mail may be sent to the Bureau of Firearms at the following address:

Bureau of Firearms

P.O. Box 820200

Sacramento, CA 94203-0200


Firearms licensing and permits mail should be sent to the Bureau of Firearms at the following address:

Bureau of Firearms-FLPU

P.O. Box 981118

W. Sacramento, CA 95798-1118


Express mail and common carrier shipments may be sent/shipped to the Bureau of Firearms at the following address:

Bureau of Firearms

4949 Broadway

Sacramento, CA 95820

tmuller
11-18-2008, 12:01 PM
From the OP I believe the CA DOJ has been contacted...he just wants something written.

armandolo
11-18-2008, 12:18 PM
Man, I'm wondering even if it's worth it. Too much hastle... "Starts with an S you can't have it, Starts with a T its OK, Letters are flipped, its a no-no" and blah blah blah. What a bull crap. Hows is anyone to know?

tmuller
11-18-2008, 12:22 PM
Man, I'm wondering even if it's worth it. Too much hastle.

That was my point. I would be shocked if you were able to get them to say something was legal on paper. It has happened in the past but is not normal and is a PITA. The best way to know if something is legal is to read the law. If YOU are not sure than it is probably best to pass on it, if YOU are sure it's legal there will be someone who will transfer or get it for you. Good luck!!

Quiet
11-18-2008, 12:59 PM
My $0.02...
When dealing with CA DOJ, talking to them on the phone is pretty much useless. Because you can call them three different time asking the same question and chances are you'll get three different answers. Get everything in writing, it make take 6-8 weeks and be a pain in the rear, but you'll have physical proof of what they are saying.

armandolo
11-18-2008, 1:11 PM
OK here is what I'm gonna send them. Thnaks for the address Rayra!

'Bureau of Firearms
P.O. Box 820200
Sacramento, CA 94203-0200

Dear Sir or Madam:
I am considering the purchase of a Arsenal SGL10-01 rifle but would like to confirm in writing that it is legal for me to do so as a resident of the state of California. In my November 14, 2008 conversation with CA DOJ employee Mike Kelly, I was told that as long as the rifle does not have Category 3 features, the rifle is legal to own in California.
The rifle does NOT have any Category 3 features, however the Arsenal designation of SGL10-01 is very close to the ‘Kasler v. Lockyer’ listed Arsenal SLG (all) (Note the SGL vs SLG). Is there a known typographic error on the ‘Kasler v. Lockyer’ list? If not, then what is the legality of Arsenal SGL10-01 in California?
'

bwiese
11-18-2008, 4:19 PM
There is no typo for that item in the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499).

If you don't wanna rely on DOJ BoF website, you can also drill down into:
http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/linkedslice/default.asp?SP=CCR-1000&Action=Welcome

What entities are formally published form the law - regardless of whether they wanted that actual listed item there. In fact, IIRC there are some banned nonentities in the lists (i.e., they banned a gun or two that doesn't exist! Apparently they don't read Shotgun News while on the john, unlike the rest of us)

And since it's regulatory law, they could have made administrative changes/ corrections to it after it was published, but they haven't - and now they can't: "the lists" (Roberti-Roos & Kasler) have been frozen since Jan 1 2007, due to passage of AB2728. There is a very small chance a prior correction to some item could be attempted, but that would open AW floodgates for owners of the typo'd item.

[Remember that when the 12/31/00 cutoff date for Kasler-listed gun registrations was misprinted by Secretary of State's office as "1/23/01", that action extended the Kasler AW registration period for AR/AK guns into late January.]

So what is, is -- and what-coulda-been, ain't!

Just ensure that the rifle in question is indeed marked as an "SGL...", and that Arsenal itself hasn't made a typo - which I don't think they have.

Do not necessarily expect a correct answer by phone from DOJ phone staff on complex issues. Many times they will mention "spirit of the law" BS, which has no force here.

If you ask in writing you may well get an unhelpful "58 DA answer" and be advised to talk to your own attorney.

fairfaxjim
11-18-2008, 4:30 PM
Do not necessarily expect a correct answer by phone from DOJ phone staff on complex issues. Many times they will mention "spirit of the law" BS, which has no force here.

If you ask in writing you may well get an unhelpful "58 DA answer" and be advised to talk to your own attorney.

Any writted or email response will most definitely have several levels of disclaimers, CYA, possible mistakes, possible FUD, and will for sure advise you to talk to your own attorney. The DOJ takes the position that they are not your attorney, and you are really on your own. I don't recall seeing any letter from them, including the ones that were furnished with the FAB-10 lowers, that provide any definitive yeah or nay without some level of hedging.

armandolo
11-18-2008, 5:42 PM
Just ensure that the rifle in question is indeed marked as an "SGL...", and that Arsenal itself hasn't made a typo - which I don't think they have.



I dont think the rifle has any reference to SGL10. I believe it's just marked Saiga. The papers that come with the rifle though say SGL10.

bwiese
11-18-2008, 5:44 PM
I dont think the rifle has any reference to SGL10. I believe it's just marked Saiga. The papers that come with the rifle though say SGL10.

Well, then, an Arsenal Saiga is not a banned rifle.

Only "Kalashnikov USA" Saigas are banned - those from EAA or RAAC are not and thousands of RAAC Saigas have been sold in CA over the last year or so.

armandolo
11-18-2008, 5:59 PM
My FFL dealer who said he will transfer initially changed his mind while the rifle was in transit. I kinda told them to ship it back and I was gonna loose my shipping and 10% restocking. :(

And Bill, thanks for the link to CCR.

armandolo
11-20-2008, 10:47 AM
Well, then, an Arsenal Saiga is not a banned rifle.




Yeah, but unfortunately the FFLs in South Bay don't want to transfer it. In fact I lost $80 because I was told they would transfer and then changed their mind.

bwiese
11-20-2008, 10:50 AM
Yeah, but unfortunately the FFLs in South Bay don't want to transfer it. In fact I lost $80 because I was told they would transfer and then changed their mind.

Talk to AmmoBros in Cerritos, ask for Darren. They handle off-list Saigas.

Darren has my #, tell him to feel free to call/email me if he has questions.

armandolo
11-20-2008, 10:53 AM
They are in SoCal, I'm in Bay Area. I'm not sure I want to drive that long. But thanks anyway Bill. Do you know anyone here in south bay

bwiese
11-20-2008, 11:08 AM
They are in SoCal, I'm in Bay Area. I'm not sure I want to drive that long. But thanks anyway Bill. Do you know anyone here in south bay


Oh hold it, sorry - I thought you were in SoCal for some reason.

In SF Bay Area, talk to these fine folks:

http://www.irvingtonarms.com in Fremont
http://www.gunexchange.com in San Jose
http://www.bayareagunvault.com in Mt. View
http://www.bullseyerange.com in San Rafael



These folks all transfer legal off-list rifles.

Tell 'em Bill Wiese sent you, and for them/you to feel free to contact me if they have questions.

armandolo
11-20-2008, 11:16 AM
Irvington (my original choice) - changed their mind, they are shipping it back

Rogers - wont do it.

I'll try the other guys. Or I may just get a regular RAA Saiga. Irvington may credit the money lost.

DedEye
11-20-2008, 12:18 PM
Irvington (my original choice) - changed their mind, they are shipping it back

Rogers - wont do it.

I'll try the other guys. Or I may just get a regular RAA Saiga. Irvington may credit the money lost.

Bullseye may do it, ask for the owner (Bill). Tell him to talk to BWiese if he has any questions.

JDay
11-20-2008, 4:19 PM
Why hasn't the CA DOJ been sued to force them to do their job and be clear on the laws yet? I just can't believe they've been allowed to spread FUD and give you 20 different answers to one question for so long.

bohoki
11-20-2008, 7:11 PM
make sure you phrase it in a way asking if the item is illegal

asking them if something is legal seems to be beyond their scope but asking if something is illegal should be their job to handle

its a fine line but the law is set up to make contraband not to say what is ok cause it would take all the books in the world to codify every legal scenario