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MP301
11-15-2008, 3:33 PM
It is obvious that at least half the battle in keeping our gun rights is the education of those that are, well, clueless. To pull this off, it has to be done tactfully. If you dont take the time to educate others or do it poorly, then you are part of teh problem, not the solution.


“RULES OF ENGAGEMENT”

Dump the rhetoric -

If you offend others in your views because of your presentation, what did you accomplish? You reaffirm their position that people shouldn’t have guns cause they are whackos! . “Pry my gun from my cold dead fingers” ? I may feel the same way, but when you voice that view in those words, it sounds like your an uneducated “Bubba” wing nut and your credibility is null. I cringe very time I here something said like that because I know that it turns people off.

Is there any doubt as to why our founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment into the constitution? Its obvious that it was to keep the Government in check if they tried the old tyranny thing again. However, if this fact is mentioned or argued to the neutral or anti gun people, we come across as paranoid right wing nuts. Again, I am smart enough to know and look at history to know that this is a real threat. But the “that couldn’t happen in this country” (why not?!?!?) People will stop listening if you use this argument.

Be non-confrontational -

Any of you that have ever been married or in an otherwise serious relationship, know that when things reach the heated argument level, you may as well be talking to a rock. Doesn’t matter if your right, they are no longer listening and you are wasting your time. Don’t let it get to this point. Out think and out maneuver your opposition.
Keep Church and State separate – Everyone has different religious views and will never agree with those that don’t share the same views. DO NOT cloud the gun rights issue by adding the god issue to the mix. Stay to the point. Statistics, points of common sense, or whatever, but don’t let yourself get put into the category of a “bible-thumping-gun-nut!”

Either support gun rights across the board or not at all -

Do not argue whether a gun is for hunting or not . It doesn’t matter if it’s a hunting firearm. The 2nd amendment wasn’t put in the constitution to protect hunting rights anyway. Sure, my Sig wasn’t made for hunting, and guess what, I don’t hunt with it! Its there for personal protection in case of emergencies. Should I not be able to protect myself because I wish to do it with a firearm designed for that purpose instead of one designed for hunting? Should I not be able to protect myself because of someone’s unreasonable fear of firearms?

“ Gee, I don’t see any reason for someone to own a machine gun.” Why not? Out of the literally thousands of legal machine guns in the hands of the general population, there has only been one documented instance of a legal machine gun being used in a crime. So tell me then, what is a valid reason for not being allowed to own one?

Yeah, there might be a better suited deer hunting rifle then my AR-15, but I don’t hunt with it anyway, so the point is moot. What I do with it is target practice. I don’t commit crimes with it or hurt anyone with it, so what is the problem with me having it?

Gee, what do you need that fancy 200 mph corvette for? The speed limit is only 70 or less in most places and a Hyundai will do that? Hmm, the corvettes are the car world’s version of assault rifles, so ban them! And hey, more people die in traffic related deaths then from guns, so this has more validity then banning firearms, right?

Remember to pick your battles when getting your point across. He or she that loses control of their emotions loses the battle....

Joe / New Member

Experimentalist
11-15-2008, 4:58 PM
I've recently encountered a few new hires at work who initially seemed a shade anti-gun.

Your advice above is pretty good stuff. I've found that a friendly attitude, combined with logical arguements, can go a long way.

I have tentative agreement from most to head out to the range sometime soon. One has admitted most of her fear of guns is a result of just not knowing much about them.

Hopefully I can convince them of the fun the shooting sports has to offer. :gunsmilie:

nicki
11-15-2008, 5:20 PM
It may work to also LISTEN to why they are ANTI GUN.

1.Often it is EMOTIONALLY based, not fact based.

The mistake many of us make is trying to attack emotion with facts because humans are wired to respond to emotion than facts.

Emotional arguments are 24X more powerful than logical ones.

Of course, the most powerful arguments are emotional ones solidified with facts.

2. Often we here arguments of why do we need a "Assault Weapon" or a 50cal BMG, or whatever. Some of us try to justify why we need and I have made that mistake myself.

I take a different approach, I ask someone what is the compelling need to restrict my gun rights.

At that point they start to hit me with "so called facts" which I can tear to shreds.

I have found that things start changing when they say "well, I'm not worried about you, it is the other nuts". That is when I know I'm on a roll.

I usually wind up equating how effective gun control laws would be with ineffective drug policies.

I realize many on this board support the drug war, if that is you, my line of reasoning won't work for you.

Typically I find that after I get someone to acknowledge that I'm responsible, that gun laws will be effective as drug laws, they have a dumb founded look.

I say, of course "gun control sounds great" and it allows proponents of gun control to avoid dealing with real issues of violence in our society.

After that, I make if things are going smooth they realize that they are being played for as fools by anti gun politicians, then I turn up the emotional rhetoric on all the issues that gun control allows attention to be diverted from.

Of course, there are hard core anti gunners you will never be able to reach because they have a irrational phobia of guns. If those same people had such fears of cars, planes or other objects, they would be treated for mental or emotional illness.

Fat chance that we will be able to get the Medical Community to recognize that fear of guns is a "Mental Illness" since most of the leadership of the medical community has that illness themselves:rolleyes:

Nicki

CavTrooper
11-15-2008, 5:29 PM
Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

Most antis are not logical, rational people and have no reasonable basis for being anti-gun. The conversation will enevitably end with them screaming, calling you names and spewing the old "its for the children!!!"

Bad Voodoo
11-15-2008, 6:05 PM
Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

Yep. Exactly. They're largely entirely irrational people. Actually, social liberals in general are largely entirely irrational. You see the same kind of arguments here over various issues. They're right. Everyone else is wrong. Venomous is an appropriate description.

Showed a buddy of mine a photo of the N4 Recce I've got spooled up for purchase and I thought the very sight of it might have given him an aneurism. "That's nothing but a killing machine!! That looks like it was only made for one purpose, to KILL people!" :rolleyes: Showed him a photo of a walnut M1A just to calm him down a little, then told him it had more firepower than the 5.56/.223 platform. Hey, as long as it LOOKS less evil, right? ;)

Antis just don't get it. I'd argue the various problems with their positions, but they can't hear me anyway.

forgiven
11-15-2008, 6:24 PM
Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

Most antis are not logical, rational people and have no reasonable basis for being anti-gun. The conversation will enevitably end with them screaming, calling you names and spewing the old "its for the children!!!"

:yes:

oddball
11-15-2008, 6:43 PM
Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

This is the key.

Mr friends who are antis are intelligent, logical hardworking professionals. They have families. Some go to church. But calmly mention firearms and they change into something else.

They don't care about CCW statistics. They don't care about details about the difference between semi auto and full auto. They don't care about the Framer's intent with the 2A. I'll take them to the range and shoot; they'll admit it's a lotta fun. But at the end of the day, they hate guns. And they still believe America would be better off without ownership :(.

Bad Voodoo
11-15-2008, 6:47 PM
Citizen, or Subject. The choice is ours.

MrLogan
11-15-2008, 6:48 PM
Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

Most antis are not logical, rational people and have no reasonable basis for being anti-gun. The conversation will enevitably end with them screaming, calling you names and spewing the old "its for the children!!!"

QFT

jcaoloveshine
11-15-2008, 6:51 PM
This is the key.

Mr friends who are antis are intelligent, logical hardworking professionals. They have families. Some go to church. But calmly mention firearms and they change into something else.

They don't care about CCW statistics. They don't care about details about the difference between semi auto and full auto. They don't care about the Framer's intent with the 2A. I'll take them to the range and shoot; they'll admit it's a lotta fun. But at the end of the day, they hate guns. And they still believe America would be better off without ownership :(.

This is something that has happened to me too. I guess unless they catch the bug and start yearning for a firearm of their own, they'll just see gun ownership as a hobby that's "fun" but not necessary.

And even if they do get a gun they still came from the other side of the fence so gun politics might not be as important to them when it comes to voting time.

jcaoloveshine
11-15-2008, 6:56 PM
It is obvious that at least half the battle in keeping our gun rights is the education of those that are, well, clueless. To pull this off, it has to be done tactfully. If you dont take the time to educate others or do it poorly, then you are part of teh problem, not the solution.


“RULES OF ENGAGEMENT”

Dump the rhetoric -

If you offend others in your views because of your presentation, what did you accomplish? You reaffirm their position that people shouldn’t have guns cause they are whackos! . “Pry my gun from my cold dead fingers” ? I may feel the same way, but when you voice that view in those words, it sounds like your an uneducated “Bubba” wing nut and your credibility is null. I cringe very time I here something said like that because I know that it turns people off.

Is there any doubt as to why our founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment into the constitution? Its obvious that it was to keep the Government in check if they tried the old tyranny thing again. However, if this fact is mentioned or argued to the neutral or anti gun people, we come across as paranoid right wing nuts. Again, I am smart enough to know and look at history to know that this is a real threat. But the “that couldn’t happen in this country” (why not?!?!?) People will stop listening if you use this argument.

Be non-confrontational -

Any of you that have ever been married or in an otherwise serious relationship, know that when things reach the heated argument level, you may as well be talking to a rock. Doesn’t matter if your right, they are no longer listening and you are wasting your time. Don’t let it get to this point. Out think and out maneuver your opposition.
Keep Church and State separate – Everyone has different religious views and will never agree with those that don’t share the same views. DO NOT cloud the gun rights issue by adding the god issue to the mix. Stay to the point. Statistics, points of common sense, or whatever, but don’t let yourself get put into the category of a “bible-thumping-gun-nut!”

Either support gun rights across the board or not at all -

Do not argue whether a gun is for hunting or not . It doesn’t matter if it’s a hunting firearm. The 2nd amendment wasn’t put in the constitution to protect hunting rights anyway. Sure, my Sig wasn’t made for hunting, and guess what, I don’t hunt with it! Its there for personal protection in case of emergencies. Should I not be able to protect myself because I wish to do it with a firearm designed for that purpose instead of one designed for hunting? Should I not be able to protect myself because of someone’s unreasonable fear of firearms?

“ Gee, I don’t see any reason for someone to own a machine gun.” Why not? Out of the literally thousands of legal machine guns in the hands of the general population, there has only been one documented instance of a legal machine gun being used in a crime. So tell me then, what is a valid reason for not being allowed to own one?

Yeah, there might be a better suited deer hunting rifle then my AR-15, but I don’t hunt with it anyway, so the point is moot. What I do with it is target practice. I don’t commit crimes with it or hurt anyone with it, so what is the problem with me having it?

Gee, what do you need that fancy 200 mph corvette for? The speed limit is only 70 or less in most places and a Hyundai will do that? Hmm, the corvettes are the car world’s version of assault rifles, so ban them! And hey, more people die in traffic related deaths then from guns, so this has more validity then banning firearms, right?

Remember to pick your battles when getting your point across. He or she that loses control of their emotions loses the battle....

Joe / New Member

Totally agree. People are definitely more apt to listening to your side of the argument if you first don't come off as a stereotypical knuckle dragging bubba gun nut.

The biggest obstacle I think in advancing the 2a movement is getting rid of the redneck stereotype associated with gun owners. People are usually pretty shocked when they find out I'm a gun owner especially since I'm probably the farthest you can get from that image. We will have won a big battle if we can get people to understand there are no "gun owners", only people who happen to own guns.

yellowfin
11-15-2008, 7:12 PM
Totally agree. People are definitely more apt to listening to your side of the argument if you first don't come off as a stereotypical knuckle dragging bubba gun nut.

The biggest obstacle I think in advancing the 2a movement is getting rid of the redneck stereotype associated with gun owners. People are usually pretty shocked when they find out I'm a gun owner especially since I'm probably the farthest you can get from that image. We will have won a big battle if we can get people to understand there are no "gun owners", only people who happen to own guns.That will happen when the NRA stops being so Fudd centric on a national basis.

SJgunguy24
11-15-2008, 9:40 PM
The family accross the street from me are good people. Very left of center but good neighbors. The Mom of the house saw my bud and I loading up for a range day. She came by later and wanted to "talk".

She asked me about my collection and I assured her everything would be O.K. They can't jump up and walk through the neighborhood randomly shooting anything that moves. She has left me alone since.

Well one day i'm hanging out and I hear SJPD air 1 (Helo) and it's like 1:30 in the afternoon. So I go outside and 7 SJPD cars come tearing up to the house accross the street. O.K. WTF is what i'm thinking. I go back inside and don't think about it again.

A couple days later I see the Mom and I told her about the Police action. She tells me "Yeah I know about that, I was home ALONE." No dog,no husband and NO WAY TO PROTECT HERSELF.

From what the cops told her there was 4 worthless P.O.S. gangbangers that robbed a 12 year old kid for his Ipod and some cash. The Police chased them into her backyard and they tried to get in. The cops were right behind them and they didn't get in.

I asked her what she thinks could of happened IF they broke in? She kinda looked at me and asked me "How do I buy a gun?"

I told her not to worry,i'll help you out.

What's sad, is the fear of death maybe the only way to open some peoples eye's.

CSACANNONEER
11-15-2008, 10:34 PM
Citizen, or Subject. The choice is ours.

It appears that over half of the country has already decided to be subjects.

Captain Evilstomper
11-15-2008, 10:50 PM
It may work to also LISTEN to why they are ANTI GUN.
.....

I say, of course "gun control sounds great" and it allows proponents of gun control to avoid dealing with real issues of violence in our society.

Nicki

Nicki, two excellent points.
i always have said that if we ban guns, then we might as well ban knives, baseball bats, sticks, rocks, and we might as well start with registrations of kitchen knives, too. because those will be the next 'assault weapons'

Codelphious
11-15-2008, 11:19 PM
Why do you feel the need to own a gun?

For protection.

But that's why we have police.

And we also have fire departments but you still own a fire extinguisher, right?*

Touché, good sir.



A perfect analogy in my opinion.

*may not apply to people who do not own fire extinguishers.

MP301
11-16-2008, 1:28 AM
Thanks for doing your part with your neighbor! Thats exactly what is needed.

I have had similar experiences with several people before. I own a Security company in Ca that operates strictly armed patrol and response. I find it dangerous as well as silly to do any kind of protection or enforcement unarmed and unprepared. Ill pay the extra insurance!

Years ago, at one of the apartment complexes I was responsible for, I had a single female apartment manager who leaned way too far to the left. She was imported from San Francisco if that helps draw the picture. She was a nice enough person and all, very intelligent and ok in general to deal with. We didnt have any problems with the fact that we were armed, because she viewed it in the same light as the police being armed...someone other then a private person to protect her and get their hands dirty, etc.

Well, I had to avoid conversations with her regarding private firearms ownership as she made her position clear after an incident at her complex.

Then one day, her world came crashing down from utopia to reality. She started the eviction process on one of her tenants who was not firing on all cylinders. A very scary guy who told her in no uncertain terms that if she was going to evict him, he had 30 days to return the favor and would enjoy doing so.

That night she called me up and requested I come talk to her about this problem. I told her I could add extra patrols and all of that, but unless she hired a 24r hour body guard she would not be safe. He was very capable and willing to follow through with his threats. He was on parole for assualt with a deadly weapon, assualt with the intent to commit great bodily injury or death and a laundry list of other offenses.

Or...I said, you may wish to consider protecting yourself. She wanted to rresist where I was taking her with every fiber of her being, but when it comes down to it, self preservation will usually win out. And if someone is that much of a pacifist that self preservation doesnt kick in, well, i call that natural selection!

But here is what I did. I told her I would that I would take her to the range on my own time, teach her how to shoot and help her pick out a firearm, but only on one condition.

The condition was that she could not be a hypocrit and sing the anti-gun song amongst her liberal friends a month down the road when the danger is past. She would have to promise me that she would tell her friends when the subject came up that yeah, she used to believe people shouldnt have guns right up until the time her *** was on the line and realized that she was mistaken!

Well, she gave me her word and I took her to the range and she did really well for a first timer. She bought a gun and totally freaked out when she learned she had a waiting period to pick up her gun. I explained to her that folks with her old way of looking at things were responsible for this waiting period and found it incredible that she was not even aware of this!

So, I let her off the hook and loaned her a gun until the waiting period was up for hers. I figured I made such good progress with someone that I thought would never see the light, that I would keep the good feelings rolling right along.

I have no idea after she was transfered if she kept her promise, but I sure felt good about things in general. I will always bend over backwards to help someone who may see things in a different light, no matter what causes them to open their eyes!

Joe

vladbutsky
11-16-2008, 9:28 AM
Greate story! You did a right thing.
Stories like this should be published in NRA magazines so more people could read it.

Steyrlp10
11-16-2008, 10:09 AM
I've been lucky to be judged by my bosses as a staff member who does my job and is a team player. They know I split my free time between bass tournaments and pistol matches. Because their views of me began with my postive work ethics, they weren't so freaked out when they found out that I like things that go boom.

So, I've got my coworkers laughing at the fun I have -- I can see they wish they were doing the same thing. One of the guys is bringing his wife to my match at the end of the month and maybe, she'll be bitten by the bug!

Of course it helps that I live with a cop, but some attorneys have a bad view of law enforcement too. They tend to forget that the individuals protecting their be-hinds are people too.

Me, I just take things slowly. Not everyone is going to agree with what I do, but as long as they don't get in my face about it, I can be tolerant of their "hobbies" also.

At any event, I agree with all of you when you say it pans out if you're talking with an open-minded person. Ignorance knows no bounds!

Meplat
11-16-2008, 1:23 PM
There are a lot of fence sitters out there that can be reasoned with. A lot of people are not really anti they just have never heard the other side from anyone they know and trust. I have turned a lot of women around. Some buy into hand guns relatively quickly but still can't see a "reason" for "assault" weapons. If you get them into handguns for their own protection and they start to liking it they usually come around on the other stuff eventually.



Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

Most antis are not logical, rational people and have no reasonable basis for being anti-gun. The conversation will enevitably end with them screaming, calling you names and spewing the old "its for the children!!!"

Meplat
11-16-2008, 1:28 PM
Showed a buddy of mine a photo of the N4 Recce I've got spooled up for purchase and I thought the very sight of it might have given him an aneurism. "That's nothing but a killing machine!! That looks like it was only made for one purpose, to KILL people!" :rolleyes: .

That's usually about the time I tell them; "Well, some people need killing." And blow the whole sale.:(

Meplat
11-16-2008, 1:29 PM
This is the key.

Mr friends who are antis are intelligent, logical hardworking professionals. They have families. Some go to church. But calmly mention firearms and they change into something else.

They don't care about CCW statistics. They don't care about details about the difference between semi auto and full auto. They don't care about the Framer's intent with the 2A. I'll take them to the range and shoot; they'll admit it's a lotta fun. But at the end of the day, they hate guns. And they still believe America would be better off without ownership :(.

Then don't waist your time.

P. S. Is there any way you can arrange a break failure for these folks before the next election?

CALM DOWN IT'S A JOAK!

Meplat
11-16-2008, 1:37 PM
The biggest obstacle I think in advancing the 2a movement is getting rid of the redneck stereotype associated with gun owners. .

I don't know about that. The knuckel dragging red neck thing actually gets some girls wet.

Meplat
11-16-2008, 1:46 PM
I understand this is already on the adgenda in the UK. It cracks me up because all you need is a flat pieace of steel and a rock and you can make an effective dagger.



Nicki, two excellent points.
i always have said that if we ban guns, then we might as well ban knives, baseball bats, sticks, rocks, and we might as well start with registrations of kitchen knives, too. because those will be the next 'assault weapons'

rayra
11-16-2008, 2:57 PM
Good advice if youre able to have a conversation with a rational anti-gunner, however, thats highly unlikey.

Most antis are not logical, rational people and have no reasonable basis for being anti-gun. The conversation will enevitably end with them screaming, calling you names and spewing the old "its for the children!!!"

This. The OPs post reads like some liberal 'conflict resolution' pap.


"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."
- Jonathan Swift

What we really need is a public education campaign, be it via public service type commercials or counter-programming for the deep liberal bias in textbooks / education / liberal-indoctrination.

jcaoloveshine
11-16-2008, 3:19 PM
I don't know about that. The knuckel dragging red neck thing actually gets some girls wet.

What part of CA are you from??!! :eek: