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pacrimguru
11-13-2008, 3:01 PM
if you are driving and happen to have a firearm in the trunk and you get pulled over, should you immediately tell the officer that you have a firearm in the trunk?

Splinter
11-13-2008, 3:04 PM
Only if you want your stop to go from 5 minutes to 30 minutes.

Ballistic043
11-13-2008, 3:04 PM
no, do not tell him. and if he asks, lie through your teeth and pray he buys it.

lazyworm
11-13-2008, 3:06 PM
IANAL, but I'd suggest you don't volunteer any information.
Oldie but goodie -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

geeknow
11-13-2008, 3:06 PM
Why would you do that?

Ironchef
11-13-2008, 3:28 PM
If you honestly have no shooting periphenelia, clothing, magazines, stickers, gun racks, etc on your car or ANY such thing that would tip a cop off to ask such a question, then you might want to challenge his question or simply say you have no contraband or otherwise illegal items in your car. If he persists, repeat. If you want to push things, push him to reveal his probable cause for such a question.

And even if you did answer something like "i have an unloaded rifle in the trunk that I'm lawfully in posession of" I'd ad that I didn't consent to any searches when asked. If I'm not mistaken, confessing such a thing doesn't warrant the 12031 check if it was learned you had a gun via a non probable cause discover. Ack, probably wrong there.

Be nice if there were a precedent or some example of legally avoiding the answering of that question. Be nice if a cop throws out the general question while at a traffic stop "got any drugs or guns in your car?" you could answer "i'm not required to answer that."

DedEye
11-13-2008, 3:33 PM
No.

If the officer asks if you have any firearms in the car, feel free to tell him "Officer I have nothing illegal in the car."

Ironchef
11-13-2008, 3:39 PM
No.

If the officer asks if you have any firearms in the car, feel free to tell him "Officer I have nothing illegal in the car."

Yeah, I've heard this and always assumed saying it, but honestly, has anyone done this before and not been compelled to answer more directly the question? I can't imagine many cops wanting to play around with you after a scripted ACLU type answer like that.

DedEye
11-13-2008, 3:51 PM
Yeah, I've heard this and always assumed saying it, but honestly, has anyone done this before and not been compelled to answer more directly the question? I can't imagine many cops wanting to play around with you after a scripted ACLU type answer like that.

Worked when they asked me. Stick to your guns ;).

tyrist
11-13-2008, 3:53 PM
If it is within sight/or reach then you had better say something and firmly plant your hands on the windshield. If it were locked in your trunk it really does'nt matter.

Ballistic043
11-13-2008, 3:55 PM
sure that reply might get you by a few times.
but eventually you'll have some A-hole who tells you "thats not the question i asked". and assume if you immediately go to the "we have nothing illegal" routine, then that you must have something to hide. that is just my take on it

as far as having the gun in a trunk, any time you notify an officer of a firearm in the car, always keep your hands in view...regardless of where the firearm is.

Steve O
11-13-2008, 4:02 PM
Honestly, I alway say no. and that the end of it.

It's a lie, and I don't care. Cops lie to us all the time. And honestly, if you forgot you had a firearm in your trunk, then it isn't a lie, you just forgot.

Ballistic043
11-13-2008, 4:04 PM
hahah, oh come now. have you ever watched cops?

"oh sorry officer, i totally forgot that ar15 was in the trunk!"

i totally agree dude, but there is such a thing as being naive.

Ironchef
11-13-2008, 4:07 PM
sure that reply might get you by a few times.
but eventually you'll have some A-hole who tells you "thats not the question i asked". and assume if you immediately go to the "we have nothing illegal" routine, then that you must have something to hide. that is just my take on it

as far as having the gun in a trunk, any time you notify an officer of a firearm in the car, always keep your hands in view...regardless of where the firearm is.



And when they do an illegal search after you hold to your guns (not literally but rather by saying "i have nothing illegal"), they can't charge you with anything because their suspicion is not lawful probable cause if I heard correctly. In that sense, it's not a lawful command I guess..something you can just reply by saying "how can i help you officer? am I being detained?" lol

Honestly, I alway say no. and that the end of it.

It's a lie, and I don't care. Cops lie to us all the time. And honestly, if you forgot you had a firearm in your trunk, then it isn't a lie, you just forgot.

Good point too. Cops use guile and dishonesty plenty but what sucks is they're protected much more than you are. I wonder what would happen if you lied, and the cop decided to do an unlawful search, and found something, and then charged you with obstruction (for lying), if it'd get thrown out because of his illegal search? Of course that'd cost gobs of money to vidicate you (or get it thrown out) just because you didn't want to take another 20 minutes on a stop, yield gobs of 5th amendment silence by explaining things, etc, etc.

Also, about not knowing if you have a gun in your trunk, i think i saw it on that ACLU video about traffic stops saying you seriously may not know what's in your posession because you haven't watched your car 24/7..and therefore you should decline answering a question like that ("any drugs or guns in the car?").

hahah, oh come now. have you ever watched cops?

"oh sorry officer, i totally forgot that ar15 was in the trunk!"

i totally agree dude, but there is such a thing as being naive.

lol, yep. I sit there with a continual face-palm when watching as those suckers sit there just yielding their rights, left and 'right', not knowing they're screwing and incriminating themselves with every word they say. Sooo sad. And what sucks is, it's trained millions of viewers that you must answer ALL police questions, even the shamefully violating ones that have nothing to do with the encounter. Snowball after snowball, these cops just giggle as their jedi mind trick defiles and convicts one after another.

DedEye
11-13-2008, 4:11 PM
sure that reply might get you by a few times.
but eventually you'll have some A-hole who tells you "thats not the question i asked". and assume if you immediately go to the "we have nothing illegal" routine, then that you must have something to hide. that is just my take on it

as far as having the gun in a trunk, any time you notify an officer of a firearm in the car, always keep your hands in view...regardless of where the firearm is.

Doesn't matter if they say "that isn't the question I asked."

Reply with something along the lines of "Officer, you may not like the answer but it's the only one I can provide on the advice of my attorney. There is nothing illegal in the vehicle."

Don't give a LEO probable cause to search you or your vehicle, no matter how hard he tries to threaten you.

Ironchef
11-13-2008, 4:20 PM
I like the "I know you're just trying to do your job officer..." approach myself. I wonder if I'll have the balls to do any of these things if ever given the opportunity. Maybe i'll get pulled over saturday on the way to the range! Got my BB video recorder ready and all! lol

Josh3239
11-13-2008, 4:27 PM
Good point too. Cops use guile and dishonesty plenty but what sucks is they're protected much more than you are. I wonder what would happen if you lied, and the cop decided to do an unlawful search, and found something, and then charged you with obstruction (for lying), if it'd get thrown out because of his illegal search?

Cops are not more protected then us, I have as much a right to freedom of speech as a police officer does. A cop is allowed to lie to you and you are allowed to lie to a cop. But you cannot obstruct justice, you are not committing obstruction if you lie to a poice offier. You are committing obstruction if the officer is investigating a crime, but it isn't obstruction to lie to a police officer during a regular traffic stop about whether you have a legal weapon in the car.

NiteQwill
11-13-2008, 4:29 PM
FWIW, I was pulled over in June coming back from Burro on San Gabriel Rd. by CHP. Two officers.

Since it was so close to actual Burro, they asked if I had any "rifle or handguns" in the car. I replied with, "Yes, I have legal and unloaded rifles and handguns in my trunk." Older looking officer, "Do you mind if you pop your trunk?" I replied, "Yes, I do mind. And no, you may not search my car."

They left it at that and I drove away with only a fix-it ticket for no front license plate.

YMMV

Ballistic043
11-13-2008, 4:30 PM
Don't give a LEO probable cause to search you or your vehicle, no matter how hard he tries to threaten you.

do you realize how difficult that seems vs how it sounds? probable cause can literally be anything, from a freakin firearm sticker to a hat or pair of pants. ask me how i know....

elSquid
11-13-2008, 4:32 PM
You can always choose to say nothing at all.

A number of years ago I was nicked for speeding. I pull over to the side of the road and get my documents ready. It was night, so I also turn on my dome light and leave it on.

The officer walks up to me and says "Do you know how fast you were going?"

I was speeding and I do know how fast I was going. I say nothing, smile weakly, and offer the docs. He takes them and walks back to his patrol car.

A few minutes later he comes back to me and gives me a warning. He asks me to slow down.

I finally speak: "Thank you officer, I appreciate the break."

And that was that. :)

-- Michael

DedEye
11-13-2008, 4:46 PM
do you realize how difficult that seems vs how it sounds? probable cause can literally be anything, from a freakin firearm sticker to a hat or pair of pants. ask me how i know....

Your hat and pair of pants were used as probable cause? Please provide details.

Josh3239
11-13-2008, 4:54 PM
Your hat and pair of pants were used as probable cause? Please provide details.

+1

A sticker, hat, nor pants qualify as probably cause. Sounds like you got yourself an illegal search.

Ballistic043
11-13-2008, 4:56 PM
sort of. me and a few friends were coming home from the range with my OLL's, and the cops pulled us over for a cracked windshield. (not my car/wasnt driving) well one of the officers saw the back passenger had a Sig Sauer hat on and asked

cop: "Nice hat.. Got any guns in the car?"

back passenger: "yes, locked in the..."

cop: "...Get your f#)*($& hands on the roof and dont move!"

subsequently yanked us out, took my oll's, arrested me with posession of un-registered AW. then went to jail.. blah blah.. trutanich, money, headache, etc etc etc..

you guys must be new. here's the thread

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=54898&highlight=orange+county+sherriff+arrests+3

Casual Observer
11-13-2008, 4:56 PM
Cops are not more protected then us, I have as much a right to freedom of speech as a police officer does. A cop is allowed to lie to you and you are allowed to lie to a cop. But you cannot obstruct justice, you are not committing obstruction if you lie to a poice offier. You are committing obstruction if the officer is investigating a crime, but it isn't obstruction to lie to a police officer during a regular traffic stop about whether you have a legal weapon in the car.

Just to clarify- yes you can lie to a local/state cop. Lying to a federal agent is actually a crime. :cool:

If all else fails, just show him your "Concealed Weapon Permit" badge.
http://www.popguns.com/badge/badge%20images/heavybadge.jpg

Ironchef
11-13-2008, 4:58 PM
Cops are not more protected then us, I have as much a right to freedom of speech as a police officer does. A cop is allowed to lie to you and you are allowed to lie to a cop. But you cannot obstruct justice, you are not committing obstruction if you lie to a poice offier. You are committing obstruction if the officer is investigating a crime, but it isn't obstruction to lie to a police officer during a regular traffic stop about whether you have a legal weapon in the car.

In as much as I would need a witness to corroborate my story, the cop needs none. He is therefore more protected than me. That was the context I spoke of.

Also, thanks for the explanation/difference between obstruction and when to lie. And while I'm sure there isn't any code saying you can lie when questioned, I'd love to see any code/case law/example.

CalCop
11-13-2008, 5:12 PM
You can always choose to say nothing at all.

A number of years ago I was nicked for speeding. I pull over to the side of the road and get my documents ready. It was night, so I also turn on my dome light and leave it on.

The officer walks up to me and says "Do you know how fast you were going?"

I was speeding and I do know how fast I was going. I say nothing, smile weakly, and offer the docs. He takes them and walks back to his patrol car.

A few minutes later he comes back to me and gives me a warning. He asks me to slow down.

I finally speak: "Thank you officer, I appreciate the break."

And that was that. :)-- MichaelNicely done...the cop wants the stop to be over as quickly as you do...the easier you make it for him...the better.

Whether or not you tell the cop depends on where the guns are...the trunk, or passenger compartment. And be careful about what is considered passenger compartment. Some cops consider rear fold down seats to mean that you have ready access to the weapon, and may charge you for concealed carry...even if the seat is up. If you have rear fold down seats, it is safer to have it in a locked container as well.

Anytime you are pulled over, doing these things will make the cop like you...Car off, windows down, hands on the steering wheel, dome light on, documents and license readily accessible. When the cop asks for your docs, tell him where they are before you go for them. Cops don't really like the glovebox grab...for obvious reasons. If you have a place on your driver's visor, that is best. The quicker the stop goes, the better it is for everyone. If you are polite and apologize for the speed, you are much more likely to get off.

The only reason I would ask if a gun was in the car is if I had REASONABLE suspicion...(like loose rounds on the floor, or reports of shooting in the area). I would never ask based on an NRA sticker. Honestly, I don't want to know if you have guns in the trunk, because you can't reach 'em during the stop, and I could care less what kind of second amendment rights you have in the TRUNK.

However, if you have a gun in the PASSENGER COMPARTMENT, I want to know IMMEDIATELY. I want you to tell me about it. If I see it before you tell me where it is (especially if your hands are not on the wheel) there will be an unsnapped holster and some tense moments. If you have a legal reason to carry inside the vehicle, keep it concealed so I don't see it until you tell me about it. And don't say..."I have a gun." Instead say..."officer, I am a concealed carry permit holder"...and I will ask questions from there.

The reason why you should not volunteer that you have guns in your TRUNK is because then the cop will feel like he has to look at them. And many cops don't know how to tell the difference between legal and illegal weapons. Don't make them check...they really don't want to. Please don't tell them you have guns in the trunk...it wastes everyone's time.

Now, there are those young, gung ho cops who haven't figured out who the real bad guys are yet, and may harass you. In this case, you have a choice to make. If you know for a fact that your weapons are legal, car registration is current, clean license, no burned out tail lights, etc. You can choose to lie to the cop...the obstruction thing will only stick if you are obstructing the cop from investigating an actual crime. The DA will not pick up obstruction just because you lied to the cop and did nothing else wrong...however, if that is an UZI in your trunk and you lie, they can make the obstruction stick.

The other option for the gung ho cop is like "NiteQwill" said, "Yes, I have legal and unloaded rifles and handguns in my trunk." Older looking officer, "Do you mind if you pop your trunk?" I replied, "Yes, I do mind. And no, you may not search my car." That is the perfect answer...now, young and gung ho will waste 30 more minutes of your time trying to figure out how he can search you...old cop will smile and tell you to have a nice day. No two cops are the same.

But, the best policy is to stay out of trouble. If you have no outstanding fines, current registration, and are cooperative as I explained (car off, windows down, dome light on, hands on wheel) the cop will be happy to make the stop as short as possible.

One last pointer...if you have rear tinted windows and they are power windows...the cop will really like you if you roll them down.

buff_01
11-13-2008, 5:38 PM
Are you going to tell him you have a gallon of milk in there too?

sorensen440
11-13-2008, 5:51 PM
I never have and never will admit to having in my possession or even owning firearms when asked by law enforcement.

CalCop
11-13-2008, 5:57 PM
I never have and never will admit to having in my possession or even owning firearms when asked by law enforcement.Works for me...like I said, unless you just committed a crime involving the weapon...I really don't want you to tell me about the gun in the trunk.

CA_Libertarian
11-13-2008, 7:14 PM
imo, not unless he asks. transporting rifles isn't illegal


"sir, do you have any firearms in the car? "

"yes, i have an empty, unloaded rifle in the trunk."


what transcends from that, is up to you and the officer.

Bad advice, IMO. You'd be giving the officer much more power than he already has.

12031(e):
In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Now, if you refuse to let the officer inspect the firearm, you may be arrested. If you cooperate, the officer is getting a free search of your trunk (unless the officer doesn't mind you retrieving the firearm yourself - yeah, right...).

Always refuse to answer questions; no good can come of it. Keep it short and polite. Ask questions; don't answer them. Here's how it should go down:

Officer: "Do you know what I pulled you over for?"
You: "Why did you pull me over, officer?"
Officer: "For going 70 in a 65... do you have any drugs, guns, or anything else I need to know about in your vehicle?"
You: "Am I required by law to answer that question?"
Officer: "No... but I would feel more at ease and I might let you off with a warning if you are cooperative."
You: "Am I free to leave now?"
Officer: "Not yet... let me finish writing your ticket and I'll send you on your way."

The above scenario assumes the officer is polite and only requests the info. Even if the officer is rude or threatening, I encourage you to keep your cool. Just keep the recorder rolling so you can make sure the local newspaper gets some good audio to encourage an attitude adjustment.

CalCop
11-13-2008, 7:26 PM
Bad advice, IMO. You'd be giving the officer much more power than he already has.

12031(e):


Now, if you refuse to let the officer inspect the firearm, you may be arrested. If you cooperate, the officer is getting a free search of your trunk (unless the officer doesn't mind you retrieving the firearm yourself - yeah, right...).

Always refuse to answer questions; no good can come of it. Keep it short and polite. Ask questions; don't answer them. Here's how it should go down:

Officer: "Do you know what I pulled you over for?"
You: "Why did you pull me over, officer?"
Officer: "For going 70 in a 65... do you have any drugs, guns, or anything else I need to know about in your vehicle?"
You: "Am I required by law to answer that question?"
Officer: "No... but I would feel more at ease and I might let you off with a warning if you are cooperative."
You: "Am I free to leave now?"
Officer: "Not yet... let me finish writing your ticket and I'll send you on your way."

The above scenario assumes the officer is polite and only requests the info. Even if the officer is rude or threatening, I encourage you to keep your cool. Just keep the recorder rolling so you can make sure the local newspaper gets some good audio to encourage an attitude adjustment.I'm cool with that...just keep em out of sight so I don't have to worry about it. I would never ask such a silly question with out a reason anyway (like I said, loose rounds or something)...but there are those young and gung ho dudes who will ask...and I like Libertarian's response. I can't wait till the young one comes back to the station after you do it...all pissed off after he figured out he couldn't make you answer.

tiko
11-13-2008, 8:16 PM
+1 for Calcop

The Director
11-13-2008, 8:29 PM
Calcop,

Appreciate very much what you do, so don't take this the wrong way.

It's just that so much has to be done as a firearms owner to create the "impression" of legality when in fact it is merely for the benefit of police so that I don't get people nervous, or god forbid invoke a holster strap unlatching.

I can legally carry and unloaded OLL rifle on my dash, I can legally carry a holstered pistol unloaded on my hip in dowtown LA. I can have a whole case of loose ammo rolling around on my floor. I can pick my teeth with a .223 cartridge while you write my traffic ticket. My bumper sticker could read "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out". It's all legal!

Sure, most of this is facetious, but personally, I'm kinda tired of stepping on eggshells around cops so they don't get "nervous". It's way over the top and starting to feel like a police state.

I just had an encounter with BLM Rangers while shooting on BLM land. Friendly, courteous and all. I answered every question they asked because they were nice from the get go (when was the last time a cop introduced himself and shook your hand!).

Let me tell you though, if I get Mr. Gung Ho in your scenario on my next encounter, he's going to get a crash course on all the relevant laws regarding whatever I am doing plus the constitution. He wants to make it a 30 minute stop I'll make it a two hour long stop.

just my $.02

leelaw
11-13-2008, 8:36 PM
I wouldn't volunteer that I have a firearm in the vehicle unless it was on my person or in an area where he may likely see it during a minimal stop (on me, in the driver's area, in the glove box, between me and the glove box, etc).

The last thing I want is a jumpy cop, especially a new officer, who suddenly sees a firearm that he didn't expect to see. I'd want to tip him off beforehand: keep my hands on the steering wheel and let him know immediately "officer, I have a CCW/am on my way to hunt and am lawfully carrying/whatever, and I have my firearm on my side holster/pocket/glove box/whatever. My ID is in <insert pocket or location> and my insurance and registration are in <insert location>. Let me know when you want me to get these for you."

If you honestly have no shooting periphenelia, clothing, magazines, stickers, gun racks, etc on your car or ANY such thing that would tip a cop off to ask such a question, then you might want to challenge his question or simply say you have no contraband or otherwise illegal items in your car. If he persists, repeat. If you want to push things, push him to reveal his probable cause for such a question.

LOL. He needs PC to ask a question? :p


Be nice if there were a precedent or some example of legally avoiding the answering of that question. Be nice if a cop throws out the general question while at a traffic stop "got any drugs or guns in your car?" you could answer "i'm not required to answer that."

A better answer is "Am I free to go?"

leelaw
11-13-2008, 8:38 PM
Cops are not more protected then us, I have as much a right to freedom of speech as a police officer does. A cop is allowed to lie to you and you are allowed to lie to a cop. But you cannot obstruct justice, you are not committing obstruction if you lie to a poice offier. You are committing obstruction if the officer is investigating a crime, but it isn't obstruction to lie to a police officer during a regular traffic stop about whether you have a legal weapon in the car.

Josh,

What is the officer is not conducting a traffic stop, but an investigative stop because your vehicle matches the description of one broadcast in a robbery with weapons just a few minutes ago? Now you're obstructing an investigation, and you just thought you were pulled over for speeding.

I'd skip the "tell a lie - it's OK!" route.

leelaw
11-13-2008, 8:41 PM
sort of. me and a few friends were coming home from the range with my OLL's, and the cops pulled us over for a cracked windshield. (not my car/wasnt driving) well one of the officers saw the back passenger had a Sig Sauer hat on and asked

cop: "Nice hat.. Got any guns in the car?"

back passenger: "yes, locked in the..."


Sounds like your answer, and not the firearm insignia, gave PC to search for weapons and verify their unloaded state.

forgiven
11-13-2008, 8:42 PM
No!!!:no:

CalCop
11-13-2008, 8:46 PM
Calcop,

Appreciate very much what you do, so don't take this the wrong way.

It's just that so much has to be done as a firearms owner to create the "impression" of legality when in fact it is merely for the benefit of police so that I don't get people nervous, or god forbid invoke a holster strap unlatching.

I can legally carry and unloaded OLL rifle on my dash, I can legally carry a holstered pistol unloaded on my hip in dowtown LA. I can have a whole case of loose ammo rolling around on my floor. I can pick my teeth with a .223 cartridge while you write my traffic ticket. My bumper sticker could read "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out". It's all legal!

Sure, most of this is facetious, but personally, I'm kinda tired of stepping on eggshells around cops so they don't get "nervous". It's way over the top and starting to feel like a police state.

I just had an encounter with BLM Rangers while shooting on BLM land. Friendly, courteous and all. I answered every question they asked because they were nice from the get go (when was the last time a cop introduced himself and shook your hand!).

Let me tell you though, if I get Mr. Gung Ho in your scenario on my next encounter, he's going to get a crash course on all the relevant laws regarding whatever I am doing plus the constitution. He wants to make it a 30 minute stop I'll make it a two hour long stop.

just my $.02I like what you have said, Director, I was posting what people can do to make the stop as short and painless as possible. If you want to stick it to the cop, and make your point...go ahead, that is your right. But it will prolong the stop and make it more uncomfortable for both you and the cop. It's just easier for all if they are out of sight. By the way...most bad guys don't use holsters, so when I see a normal lookin dude with a nicely strapped holster...I pretty much assume he is okay. I get nervous when I see it carried unconventionally on a unsavory looking individual. I support the open carry movement.

Weapon in gun rack, rounds of ammo in box, gun in holster = responsible citizen exercising his rights.
Gun on dash or seat and ammo loose all over the floor = probably gonna have a problem with this guy.
Just because these scenarios aren't necessarily legally different...experience shows which one is gonna try to shoot it out with the cops.

Satex
11-13-2008, 8:51 PM
Yeah, I've heard this and always assumed saying it, but honestly, has anyone done this before and not been compelled to answer more directly the question? I can't imagine many cops wanting to play around with you after a scripted ACLU type answer like that.

If you are easily influenced or pressured then I guess you won't be able to hold your guns, no pun intended.

Meplat
11-13-2008, 9:41 PM
Get real, I don't even save receipts for the IRS.


imo, not unless he asks. transporting rifles isn't illegal


"sir, do you have any firearms in the car? "

"yes, i have an empty, unloaded rifle in the trunk."


what transcends from that, is up to you and the officer.


advise: you should always carry receipts with you to prove ownership. although rifles are not technically registered in any database, it would show your good intentions.

speedy
11-13-2008, 9:43 PM
CalCop it warms my heart to know there are LE folks out there as knowledgeable about firearms law and OLL's as you. Thank you !

hill billy
11-13-2008, 9:49 PM
Just because these scenarios aren't necessarily legally different...experience shows which one is gonna try to shoot it out with the cops.

Spoken like a wise cop, thanks for your input.

CalCop
11-13-2008, 9:57 PM
CalCop it warms my heart to know there are LE folks out there as knowledgeable about firearms law and OLL's as you. Thank you !Let's just say I own more than one OLL, in various stages of builds.

Meplat
11-13-2008, 10:20 PM
How about if I have a North American Arms revolver in my hip pocket, or a S&W Mod-64 .357 in an inside the waist band holster, concealed? I have a CCW. I have been asked by copes "do you have anything I should be concerned about"? I tell them no because I mean them no harm and they really don't need to be concerned about any thing I have.


Works for me...like I said, unless you just committed a crime involving the weapon...I really don't want you to tell me about the gun in the trunk.

Deamer
11-13-2008, 10:29 PM
Josh,

What is the officer is not conducting a traffic stop, but an investigative stop because your vehicle matches the description of one broadcast in a robbery with weapons just a few minutes ago? Now you're obstructing an investigation, and you just thought you were pulled over for speeding.

I'd skip the "tell a lie - it's OK!" route.

I have a feeling if you are getting pulled over for that situation the LE is not just going to stroll up to your car and ask if you have a gun in the car.

Meplat
11-13-2008, 10:31 PM
Better answer is NO.

I wouldn't volunteer that I have a firearm in the vehicle unless it was on my person or in an area where he may likely see it during a minimal stop (on me, in the driver's area, in the glove box, between me and the glove box, etc).

The last thing I want is a jumpy cop, especially a new officer, who suddenly sees a firearm that he didn't expect to see. I'd want to tip him off beforehand: keep my hands on the steering wheel and let him know immediately "officer, I have a CCW/am on my way to hunt and am lawfully carrying/whatever, and I have my firearm on my side holster/pocket/glove box/whatever. My ID is in <insert pocket or location> and my insurance and registration are in <insert location>. Let me know when you want me to get these for you."



LOL. He needs PC to ask a question? :p




A better answer is "Am I free to go?"

CalCop
11-13-2008, 10:39 PM
How about if I have a North American Arms revolver in my hip pocket, or a S&W Mod-64 .357 in an inside the waist band holster, concealed? I have a CCW. I have been asked by copes "do you have anything I should be concerned about"? I tell them no because I mean them no harm and they really don't need to be concerned about any thing I have.
I don't ask people if they have anything I should be concerned about unless I plan to search them. If the cop asks you to step out of the car...then you should probably say, "officer, before I step out of the car, you should know that I have a permit to carry concealed." At this point, if I have no clues that you are an idiot (you have poor hygiene, your tags are expired, or your girlfriend is ugly...j/k) I will be cautious, but will not unsnap my holster, because if you voluntarily tell me you are legally carrying, I will more than likely have a law abiding citizen talking to me. However, if you step out and I see it before you tell me about it...it will get tense and I will probably unsnap. That is why I say to keep it concealed as long as possible, and don't tell me that you have it until it is likely that I am going to find out before you say something...like if I ask you to step out of the car...that would be a good time to speak up...before you get out.

leelaw
11-13-2008, 10:40 PM
Better answer is NO.

We've already covered why lying isn't the best choice.

sorensen440
11-13-2008, 10:52 PM
Works for me...like I said, unless you just committed a crime involving the weapon...I really don't want you to tell me about the gun in the trunk.

yup theres no reason for it
its not about your saftey as I dont have loaded firearms in my vehicle unless i'm on private property and thats rare

Now if I am in Arizona my understanding is that if I am concealed carrying I am supposed to inform the officer and I dont have a problem with that as If I have a loaded firearm on me I would prefer him to find otu through me vs. noticing a gun out of the corner of his eye

CalCop
11-13-2008, 11:01 PM
If I have a loaded firearm on me I would prefer him to find out through me vs. noticing a gun out of the corner of his eyeBingo. If I am surprised by its sight, and your hand is near the weapon...it doesn't take much for me to articulate why you went to the ground...but, I don't want that, and you don't want that...I don't want to write the report...I don't want to worry about liability...you don't need that kind of contact on your record (yes, even detentions stay on your record, even if no arrest takes place)

It is better for both of us if you think I'm gonna see it, tell me first.

sorensen440
11-13-2008, 11:19 PM
Bingo. If I am surprised by its sight, and your hand is near the weapon...it doesn't take much for me to articulate why you went to the ground...but, I don't want that, and you don't want that...I don't want to write the report...I don't want to worry about liability...you don't need that kind of contact on your record (yes, even detentions stay on your record, even if no arrest takes place)

It is better for both of us if you think I'm gonna see it, tell me first.

I wish more leo's had your attitude

leelaw
11-13-2008, 11:21 PM
I wish more leo's had your attitude

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised how many do. :)

DedEye
11-14-2008, 1:28 AM
Sounds like your answer, and not the firearm insignia, gave PC to search for weapons and verify their unloaded state.

Agreed, just because he asked a question based on a hat doesn't mean he would have had probable cause if you'd kept your mouth SHUT. Fail for saying "yes." You could have answered "nothing illegal," shrugged, or said "None that are relevant to this traffic stop" for all I care. You may have been searched anyway if the cop had an attitude (and given their response to your answer of "yes," I wouldn't be shocked if they HAD still searched you), and you probably would have still been arrested, but the case may have been substantially cheaper and easier to fight.

I dont have a problem with that as If I have a loaded firearm on me I would prefer him to find otu through me vs. noticing a gun out of the corner of his eye

If you've got a CCW in CA, don't you have a duty to inform if you're carrying? Best way I've been told to properly inform is to hand over your CCW with your license and don't utter a syllable about "gun" or "firearm" unless the officer asks, then proceed cautiously and honestly.

Ballistic043
11-14-2008, 12:27 PM
sorry, i guess im the only one here who was brought up and taught never to lie for stupid reasons. if thats giving bad advise, oh well. in my experience the cops search you first find PC later so there is no point to lying unless you want the stop to go from 10 minutes to 45.


by the way, im curious to the statement that you can lie as long as you arent breaking the law. and then "but the case may have been substantially cheaper and easier to fight." suggesting that lying is going to save anyone money or time.



scenario: what happens when the cop doesnt take your word for it (After lying) and uses something else as PC to search the car for weapons?

then he assumes your OLL Is an un registered weapon, and thinks you ARE breaking the law? then you could be slapped with additional charges of obstructing on top of the original charges. because you lied about something that he thinks and is going to have to prove illegal. that means more legal fees for YOU

sure you'd be proven innocent, but not after being reamed financially.

nicki
11-14-2008, 1:09 PM
Cops don't pull you over unless they have a reason, if they run your plates and you they will probaly find out you are a "gun owner", especially if you own a "Registered AW".

Police may have the right to pull you over for traffic violations, they don't have the right to excessively detain you.

As far as consent for vehicle searches, if you consent, you just waived your
4th amendment rights.

This is a case by case issue. In theory, most of us should just say no, but most of us if we have nothing to hide, will probably say, go ahead, I;ve got nothing to hide.

If you stand up for your rights, you probably will get some traffic citation though.

Keep it in mind.

Nicki

eta34
11-14-2008, 1:13 PM
Cops don't pull you over unless they have a reason, if they run your plates and you they will probaly find out you are a "gun owner", especially if you own a "Registered AW".

Police may have the right to pull you over for traffic violations, they don't have the right to excessively detain you.

As far as consent for vehicle searches, if you consent, you just waived your
4th amendment rights.

This is a case by case issue. In theory, most of us should just say no, but most of us if we have nothing to hide, will probably say, go ahead, I;ve got nothing to hide.

If you stand up for your rights, you probably will get some traffic citation though.

Keep it in mind.

Nicki

No, no, no! We don't find out that you own guns by "running" you. It doesn't happen.

Casual Observer
11-14-2008, 1:17 PM
If you've got a CCW in CA, don't you have a duty to inform if you're carrying? Best way I've been told to properly inform is to hand over your CCW with your license and don't utter a syllable about "gun" or "firearm" unless the officer asks, then proceed cautiously and honestly.

Varies between issuing agencies. OC, for example, reguires you to notify law enforcement if you make contact with them in any way shape or form...

...yes, even standing in line at Starbucks shooting the proverbial sht, you still have to inform them. :rolleyes:

Most cops though, like CalCop said, seeing a high-dollar handgun in an high-quality holster on a well-dressed individual is probably not going to give it as much attention as say a guy with a seecamp shoved in his waistband of shorts that are so big they might as well be pants.

Glock22Fan
11-14-2008, 1:24 PM
Not a police officer, but a British customs officer who asked me over and over "Do you believe marijuana should be legal?"

My reply was: "My opinions do not matter; as skipper of this yacht I assure you that, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing illegal aboard."

After about thirty five repetitions, he gave up.

As a customs officer, he could have searched anyway, but he didn't.

nicki
11-14-2008, 1:35 PM
If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

Some other states have tied there CCW permits into the DMV base.

I figured that California would be doing that by now, even unofficially.

Local sheriffs get notified of handguns sales, I wouldn't be surprised if some are creating a local data base.

This stunt was being done in Pa. a few years back.

Nicki

The Director
11-14-2008, 1:43 PM
Calcop,

I think I was a little hard on you. It really wasn't my intention. I think my angst was directed more at your "young gung ho" junior officer scenario.

I realize the older more mature officers have had more experience and thus maturity to boot.

I feel that the role of police is public service (so do most LE agencies), therefore they work for the people, not against them. It's not as if I NEED them to defend me, I'm 6'-3 and 220, 2nd degree black belt and a lifelong firearms owner with military training. Someone wants to start something, I'm going to finish it.

Still, I EXPECT them to defend me in my time of need, not immediately suspect me of some type of crime. FYI - I've no criminal record and never engaged in any sort of criminal activity, so when I encounter a LEO it is with a clear conscience.

Just a background into my mindset.

Thanks for your service!

Theseus
11-14-2008, 2:25 PM
Varies between issuing agencies. OC, for example, reguires you to notify law enforcement if you make contact with them in any way shape or form...

...yes, even standing in line at Starbucks shooting the proverbial sht, you still have to inform them. :rolleyes:

Most cops though, like CalCop said, seeing a high-dollar handgun in an high-quality holster on a well-dressed individual is probably not going to give it as much attention as say a guy with a seecamp shoved in his waistband of shorts that are so big they might as well be pants.

Where does it say that I have to inform a cop I am OC? If he wants to know he can see. The only place I might tell him is during a stop.

nobs11
11-14-2008, 2:36 PM
No, no, no! We don't find out that you own guns by "running" you. It doesn't happen.

In what scenarios do the police check the handgun/AW database?

I was driving through a college campus (UCSD) once and was stopped because my left side tail light was out. The UCPD officer said to me "Sir, I noticed that you have several guns registered to you. Do you have any in the car?" I did not and said no.

I was driving my girlfriend's (at the time) plain vanilla Honda Accord with nothing to give away that I was a gun owner. I was driving at the speed limit, don't do drugs and had done nothing to arouse suspicion.

So I'm not sure that LE doesn't know that you are a gun owner when they stop you.

AaronHorrocks
11-14-2008, 2:56 PM
Officer: Do you have any firearms or explosives in the car?
Jimbo: YesÖ I-I mean, no! No!
Officer: Open your trunk please, sir.
Jimbo: Damn! Damn, I always get that question wrong!

ke6guj
11-14-2008, 2:58 PM
Where does it say that I have to inform a cop I am OC? If he wants to know he can see. The only place I might tell him is during a stop.Casual is not talking about Open Carry, he is talking about Orange County. Reread the post with that in mind and you'll see that The Orange County agency that issued the CCW permit may require you to inform any LEO you encounter.

Meplat
11-14-2008, 4:48 PM
I have heard my registered assault rifle reported over the police radio during a traffic stop.




In what scenarios do the police check the handgun/AW database?

I was driving through a college campus (UCSD) once and was stopped because my left side tail light was out. The UCPD officer said to me "Sir, I noticed that you have several guns registered to you. Do you have any in the car?" I did not and said no.

I was driving my girlfriend's (at the time) plain vanilla Honda Accord with nothing to give away that I was a gun owner. I was driving at the speed limit, don't do drugs and had done nothing to arouse suspicion.

So I'm not sure that LE doesn't know that you are a gun owner when they stop you.

Theseus
11-14-2008, 5:07 PM
Casual is not talking about Open Carry, he is talking about Orange County. Reread the post with that in mind and you'll see that The Orange County agency that issued the CCW permit may require you to inform any LEO you encounter.

:notworthy:

CalCop
11-14-2008, 5:08 PM
If you've got a CCW in CA, don't you have a duty to inform if you're carrying? Best way I've been told to properly inform is to hand over your CCW with your license and don't utter a syllable That is good advice...assuming that the weapon is indeed concealed, as it should be.

CalCop
11-14-2008, 5:17 PM
Calcop,

I think I was a little hard on you. It really wasn't my intention. I think my angst was directed more at your "young gung ho" junior officer scenario.No offense was taken...I understood what you were getting at.

I feel that the role of police is public service (so do most LE agencies), therefore they work for the people, not against them.
I'm with you 100%, check out my signature. I like to go home happy that I have improved in some small way the image of cops...we should be an extension of law abiding citizens...for you, not against you.

CalCop
11-14-2008, 5:23 PM
I have heard my registered assault rifle reported over the police radio during a traffic stop.Ooooh. That's a no-no. Check out the CA penal code:

12288.5. (a) No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to
this chapter, unless there exists a reason to believe in good faith
that one of the following conditions exist:
(1) The individual has engaged, or may be engaged, in criminal
conduct.
(2) The police are responding to a call in which the person
allegedly committing a criminal violation may gain access to the
assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle.
(3) The victim, witness, or person who reported the alleged
criminal violation may be using the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle
to hold the person allegedly committing the criminal violation or may
be using the weapon in defense of himself, herself, or other
persons.
(b) This section shall not prohibit a peace officer or dispatcher
from broadcasting over a police radio that an individual has not
registered, or has not obtained a permit to possess, an assault
weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to this chapter.
(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

ilbob
11-14-2008, 5:36 PM
lots of context that would need to be answered first.

generally unless there is some law that requires you to do so you are never well advised to tell police anything at all.

its just none of their business.

lehn20
11-15-2008, 12:49 AM
I dont like lying about my trunk rifle either, but again, I have to be places, and a "No, Sir" has always been satisfying to the LEOs I have come across.


CA CCW holders are not required to tell a LEO during a traffic stop. Some cities might encourage you to do when they issue a CCW, but by law you are not required to.
Other states are.
I have never voluntered that information if I was pulled over for a rolling stop, speeding etc and I always carry.
If I had done anything so bad that I was asked to step out of the car, I would let the officer know, but if he is just going about his business writing a ticket, I wont say anything. I dont have time to sit around waiting to have the OMG, lets check serial# etc etc.
I mostly work in suits and drive nice vehicles around BH protecting my clients so I dont really come across as a scumbag anyway. Appearance has alot to do with how a stop is performed IMO.
Always be curtious and respectful so the LEO recognizes that you are a good citizen with nothing to hide.
I work with and around LEO from many agencies around the country everyday, and 95% of them have been pleasent to deal with and I have hired many to help out on protective details, estate details, airport escorts etc

I dont like lying about my trunk rifle either, but again, I have to be places, and a "No, Sir" has always been satisfying to the LEOs I have come across.

Meplat
11-15-2008, 1:01 AM
What can I say? **** happens. Ooooh. That's a no-no. Check out the CA penal code:

12288.5. (a) No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to
this chapter, unless there exists a reason to believe in good faith
that one of the following conditions exist:
(1) The individual has engaged, or may be engaged, in criminal
conduct.
(2) The police are responding to a call in which the person
allegedly committing a criminal violation may gain access to the
assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle.
(3) The victim, witness, or person who reported the alleged
criminal violation may be using the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle
to hold the person allegedly committing the criminal violation or may
be using the weapon in defense of himself, herself, or other
persons.
(b) This section shall not prohibit a peace officer or dispatcher
from broadcasting over a police radio that an individual has not
registered, or has not obtained a permit to possess, an assault
weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to this chapter.
(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

leelaw
11-15-2008, 1:23 AM
What can I say? **** happens.

If their band was encrypted, then it is reasonable for them to assume that only LE is able to listen and therefore in compliance... unless there is some case law or other decree that such transmission isn't legal.

NiteQwill
11-15-2008, 10:11 AM
I dont like lying about my trunk rifle either, but again, I have to be places, and a "No, Sir" has always been satisfying to the LEOs I have come across.


CA CCW holders are not required to tell a LEO during a traffic stop. Some cities might encourage you to do when they issue a CCW, but by law you are not required to.
Other states are.
I have never voluntered that information if I was pulled over for a rolling stop, speeding etc and I always carry.
If I had done anything so bad that I was asked to step out of the car, I would let the officer know, but if he is just going about his business writing a ticket, I wont say anything. I dont have time to sit around waiting to have the OMG, lets check serial# etc etc.
I mostly work in suits and drive nice vehicles around BH protecting my clients so I dont really come across as a scumbag anyway. Appearance has alot to do with how a stop is performed IMO.
Always be curtious and respectful so the LEO recognizes that you are a good citizen with nothing to hide.
I work with and around LEO from many agencies around the country everyday, and 95% of them have been pleasent to deal with and I have hired many to help out on protective details, estate details, airport escorts etc

I dont like lying about my trunk rifle either, but again, I have to be places, and a "No, Sir" has always been satisfying to the LEOs I have come across.

Negative, county Sheriff's can impose restrictions on CCWs. In OC (as well as other counties), you are REQUIRED to notify a LEO on contact or you will easily get your CCW revoked (it's happened).

CalCop
11-15-2008, 1:24 PM
If their band was encrypted, then it is reasonable for them to assume that only LE is able to listen and therefore in compliance... unless there is some case law or other decree that such transmission isn't legal.
Really? The penal code section I posted doesn't discriminate between encrypted or not. It says:

"No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon"

I don't see any wiggle room, how about you?

ke6guj
11-15-2008, 1:32 PM
encrypted should not be enough, It would also need to be a point-to-point transmission between only that offcer and the dispatcher. Did that info come out of any other police radio that could have been overhead by anybody else?

regarding that PC section, I saw that is was a "shall not" section, but I did not see any punishments listed. Is it a law with no teeth?

nobs11
11-15-2008, 2:14 PM
Sometimes we pretend to know more than we do inorder to get people to willfully incrimate themselves. You basically state something which is most likely to be legit and hope they roll over on themselves.

example

Sir where do you keep your crack cocaine? :)

If I cop asked me that, I hope I'm recording because it will be in the press (I have friends who work for local newspapers). That is unprofessional behavior. In my case, the cop actually knew that I had several handguns registered to me. I'm pretty sure he had asked for that info.

Moonclip
11-15-2008, 4:12 PM
I have around 100 handguns registered to me. How likely is the average traffic stop or field interogation going to come up with this info?

CalCop
11-16-2008, 12:26 AM
regarding that PC section, I saw that is was a "shall not" section, but I did not see any punishments listed. Is it a law with no teeth?Not sure if this applies:
CA PC 19.4. "When an act or omission is declared by a statute to be a
public offense and no penalty for the offense is prescribed in any
statute, the act or omission is punishable as a misdemeanor."

Or, maybe you would sue civil and push for administrative action against the cop?

ke6guj
11-16-2008, 12:29 AM
cool. I've wondered about that when I've seen a PC section prohibiting something but not having a punishment specified. Looks like that should cover it.

Leon75x55
11-16-2008, 6:17 AM
I have a small SUV that does not have a slide to cover the "Trunk" area. All the windows are tinted in the back so it is hard to see in there. When I go to the range, I usually cover all my gear with a blanket that I use at the range to avoid wandering eyes. I never leave the car un-attended while I have guns inside. I do not travel in the dark with guns in the car. I have never been pulled over with guns in th ecar. My question is this: if I get pulled over with my gear, should I mention to the officer that I just came back/going to the range before he sees all my stuff? I usaully have 2-3 rifles and 3-4 hand guns + ammo in cans.

CalCop
11-16-2008, 9:18 AM
I have a small SUV that does not have a slide to cover the "Trunk" area. All the windows are tinted in the back so it is hard to see in there. When I go to the range, I usually cover all my gear with a blanket that I use at the range to avoid wandering eyes. I never leave the car un-attended while I have guns inside. I do not travel in the dark with guns in the car. I have never been pulled over with guns in th ecar. My question is this: if I get pulled over with my gear, should I mention to the officer that I just came back/going to the range before he sees all my stuff? I usaully have 2-3 rifles and 3-4 hand guns + ammo in cans.To be legal, your handguns have to be either in a locked container...OR, if they are not, they must be unloaded and in plain view...NOT concealed by a blanket. Not sure if some would interpret the tinted windows to be "concealing" your firearms, seems like a stretch. If you are covering up handguns with a blanket...they must be in locked container. If you don't have enough locked containers for you handguns to fit in...I would suggest not having the blanket cover them. At the range...not sure if someone would sweat guns covered by a blanket there...you are probably parked on private property.

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

under blanket=concealed

leelaw
11-16-2008, 12:22 PM
If their band was encrypted, then it is reasonable for them to assume that only LE is able to listen and therefore in compliance... unless there is some case law or other decree that such transmission isn't legal.

Really? The penal code section I posted doesn't discriminate between encrypted or not. It says:

"No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon"

I don't see any wiggle room, how about you?


Exemptions...
(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

I see wiggle room right there.

If the radio is encrypted then it is a "medium that is legally accessibly only to peace officers or other authorized personnel" (those who have had such encrypted radios issued to them). Of course encrypted networks can be broken into, as can the computer communications, but the key is "legally accessible". If you're breaking into the encrypted or secure communications then you're obviously not authorized to listen in in the first place.

CalCop
11-16-2008, 12:28 PM
I see wiggle room right there.

If the radio is encrypted then it is a "medium that is legally accessibly only to peace officers or other authorized personnel" (those who have had such encrypted radios issued to them). Of course encrypted networks can be broken into, as can the computer communications, but the key is "legally accessible". If you're breaking into the encrypted or secure communications then you're obviously not authorized to listen in in the first place.
Yeah, I guess you're right.

Meplat
11-16-2008, 2:13 PM
I listen to Fresno PD on scanner all the time. They don't have incription. They use other local Gvt. freqs such as ag commissioner and others when they are doing drug raids and stuff to try to avoid detection.


If their band was encrypted, then it is reasonable for them to assume that only LE is able to listen and therefore in compliance... unless there is some case law or other decree that such transmission isn't legal.

CalCop
11-16-2008, 2:31 PM
Maybe this is the distinction:

12288.5. (a) No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to
this chapter
(b) This section shall not prohibit a peace officer or dispatcher
from broadcasting over a police radio that an individual has not
registered, or has not obtained a permit to possess, an assault
weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to this chapter.
(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

So, the cop radio CANNOT transmit whether you have registered or obtained a permit to possess

But, it CAN transmit over an ENCRYPTED channel the "ownership status" of the said firearm.

In other words, the cop accidentally asks the dispatcher, "is this rifle registered to Joe Blow?"

The dispatcher responds, "I can only tell you that the rifle is legally owned, and I can only do that because this channel is encrypted."

Maybe that is the distinction?

Smokeybehr
11-16-2008, 10:53 PM
Maybe this is the distinction:

12288.5. (a) No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to
this chapter
(b) This section shall not prohibit a peace officer or dispatcher
from broadcasting over a police radio that an individual has not
registered, or has not obtained a permit to possess, an assault
weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to this chapter.
(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

So, the cop radio CANNOT transmit whether you have registered or obtained a permit to possess

But, it CAN transmit over an ENCRYPTED channel the "ownership status" of the said firearm.

In other words, the cop accidentally asks the dispatcher, "is this rifle registered to Joe Blow?"

The dispatcher responds, "I can only tell you that the rifle is legally owned, and I can only do that because this channel is encrypted."

Maybe that is the distinction?

You're reading it wrong. The only way that the dispatcher can send you the info is over the MDT through a text message, or if you've got a secure WWAN link to CLETS and the databases.

Whether the radio is encrypted or not, it doesn't matter.

swhatb
11-17-2008, 12:50 PM
no radio brodcast on AWs in most cases. period.

SenorJefe
11-17-2008, 1:17 PM
Just to clarify- yes you can lie to a local/state cop. Lying to a federal agent is actually a crime. :cool:

If all else fails, just show him your "Concealed Weapon Permit" badge.
http://www.popguns.com/badge/badge%20images/heavybadge.jpg

This is about people who transport unloaded, and locked, firearms...not those with concealed carry permits. But, I believe CCW badges are a bad idea. Law enforcement, in particular, don't like them at all. Police feel such a badge incorrectly "labels" someone as a sworn peace officer.

Besides, if you're legally CCW in California, you must inform the officer and present your card.

Glock22Fan
11-17-2008, 2:15 PM
Besides, if you're legally CCW in California, you must inform the officer and present your card.

There is nothing in pc12050 that requires this, but some CLEO's add it as one of the conditions on the permit.

So read your permit, and if it doesn't say this, use your discretion; there are pro's and cons for both positions.

Ironchef
11-17-2008, 2:53 PM
Really? The penal code section I posted doesn't discriminate between encrypted or not. It says:

"No peace officer or dispatcher shall broadcast over a
police radio that an individual has registered, or has obtained a
permit to possess, an assault weapon"

I don't see any wiggle room, how about you?

Shucks, I've heard plenty of weapon discussion over the air on my scanner/radio from Antioch PD, probably CCC SO, and Oakley PD (also ccc so).

Sometimes when running plates, if they request wants and warrants, or have a group of people and they're running IDs, or when there's parties to a 415/211/245/10851/h&s, etc, I'm pretty sure I've heard chatter about gun registration or the lack thereof. I've also been in squad cars and realize that most information is over their computer. Perhaps the radio information on guns is because the officer is out of the car. I"ll pay attention and see if I can get an actual violation as mentioned above. Should I call the dispatcher and ask her if the transmission was lawful? I know i won't get an answer from the APD chief...he's afraid to answer me! lol

seephor
11-17-2008, 3:05 PM
Why not just say yes, I have a legal, unloaded and properly stored gun in my trunk. If you are doing everything by law you shouldn't have anything to worry about and so what if it takes 10 minutes of your time.

GuyW
11-17-2008, 3:38 PM
To be legal, your handguns have to be either in a locked container...OR, if they are not, they must be unloaded and in plain view...NOT concealed by a blanket.

Hey, boss: you missed the PC exceptions that allows a target shooter to have concealed (but not loaded unless otherwise authorized) handguns while they travel to/from the range....also hunters and fishermen...
.

Ironchef
11-17-2008, 3:42 PM
Why not just say yes, I have a legal, unloaded and properly stored gun in my trunk. If you are doing everything by law you shouldn't have anything to worry about and so what if it takes 10 minutes of your time.

True, and like calcop said, most cops don't want to search your trunk..but when you say that, you may be silently requiring him to do his 12031 check. And if you have a cop not knowing alot of lawful weapon code like we all know, you run the risk of an accident. And if you get a cop who's had a bad day and is under pressure by an angry sergeant...

Can you imagine something like this happening?

1) Your legal SKS gets confiscated because they think you have a grenade launcher on it when it's just a big old thing CAI had welded on the muzzle before selling at Big5 and while they have it in their possession, they get it to slam fire and then you're out tens of thousands of dollars and you lose your gun rights.

2) Or maybe you get the new guy who seizes your OLL even though you've explained 12276 and your bullet button to him, and he jams 11 rounds in your 10/20 mag..

Point being...we all tote around legally configured weapons...and that's just not good enough some times..especially with the shady, evil black rifle.

CalCop
11-17-2008, 6:16 PM
You're reading it wrong. The only way that the dispatcher can send you the info is over the MDT through a text message, or if you've got a secure WWAN link to CLETS and the databases.

Whether the radio is encrypted or not, it doesn't matter.

(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

Can't the radio be "any other medium?"

CalCop
11-17-2008, 6:20 PM
This is about people who transport unloaded, and locked, firearms...not those with concealed carry permits. But, I believe CCW badges are a bad idea. Law enforcement, in particular, don't like them at all. Police feel such a badge incorrectly "labels" someone as a sworn peace officer.

Personally, the badge doesn't bother me, I can tell the difference between a real badge, and that. I know what its purpose is. But, I do know some cops who don't like the CCW badge.

CalCop
11-17-2008, 7:07 PM
Shucks, I've heard plenty of weapon discussion over the air on my scanner/radio from Antioch PD, probably CCC SO, and Oakley PD (also ccc so).

Sometimes when running plates, if they request wants and warrants, or have a group of people and they're running IDs, or when there's parties to a 415/211/245/10851/h&s, etc, I'm pretty sure I've heard chatter about gun registration or the lack thereof. Well, in these cases, it would be acceptable, because:

"(1) The individual has engaged, or may be engaged, in criminal
conduct."

CalCop
11-17-2008, 7:18 PM
Hey, boss: you missed the PC exceptions that allows a target shooter to have concealed (but not loaded unless otherwise authorized) handguns while they travel to/from the range....also hunters and fishermen...
.I believe this is what you are referring to:
12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.

It also says this:
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.

mej16489
11-17-2008, 7:45 PM
(c) This section does not limit the transmission of an assault
weapon or a .50 BMG rifle ownership status via law enforcement
computers or any other medium that is legally accessible only to
peace officers or other authorized personnel.

Can't the radio be "any other medium?"

No, because unless the radio transmission is encrypted it doesn't meet the "Legally accessible only to peace officers" clause.

Technically even some antiquated mobile computer terminals wouldn't be legal because they simply use nonstandard modulation techniques vs actual 'secure' transmissions.

In fact, to my knowledge, the only thing that makes 'listening' and decrypting encrypted digital radio signals is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) and that would be a very loose interpretation.

CalCop
11-17-2008, 8:03 PM
No, because unless the radio transmission is encrypted it doesn't meet the "Legally accessible only to peace officers" clause.Yeah, that's what I said, that it had to be encrypted...read the last few posts between me & smokeybehr

Steve O
11-18-2008, 2:39 AM
Cops are not more protected then us, I have as much a right to freedom of speech as a police officer does. A cop is allowed to lie to you and you are allowed to lie to a cop. But you cannot obstruct justice, you are not committing obstruction if you lie to a poice offier. You are committing obstruction if the officer is investigating a crime, but it isn't obstruction to lie to a police officer during a regular traffic stop about whether you have a legal weapon in the car.

Don't you have to be actually committing a crime to be guilty of obstructing justice?

ohh wait here you go..



Now, there are those young, gung ho cops who haven't figured out who the real bad guys are yet, and may harass you. In this case, you have a choice to make. If you know for a fact that your weapons are legal, car registration is current, clean license, no burned out tail lights, etc. You can choose to lie to the cop...the obstruction thing will only stick if you are obstructing the cop from investigating an actual crime. The DA will not pick up obstruction just because you lied to the cop and did nothing else wrong...however, if that is an UZI in your trunk and you lie, they can make the obstruction stick.





The reason why you should not volunteer that you have guns in your TRUNK is because then the cop will feel like he has to look at them. And many cops don't know how to tell the difference between legal and illegal weapons. Don't make them check...they really don't want to. Please don't tell them you have guns in the trunk...it wastes everyone's time.


lol. thats always how I seen it.

Steve O
11-18-2008, 3:03 AM
Bad advice, IMO. You'd be giving the officer much more power than he already has.

12031(e):


Now, if you refuse to let the officer inspect the firearm, you may be arrested. If you cooperate, the officer is getting a free search of your trunk (unless the officer doesn't mind you retrieving the firearm yourself - yeah, right...).

Always refuse to answer questions; no good can come of it. Keep it short and polite. Ask questions; don't answer them. Here's how it should go down:

Officer: "Do you know what I pulled you over for?"
You: "Why did you pull me over, officer?"
Officer: "For going 70 in a 65... do you have any drugs, guns, or anything else I need to know about in your vehicle?"
You: "Am I required by law to answer that question?"
Officer: "No... but I would feel more at ease and I might let you off with a warning if you are cooperative."
You: "Am I free to leave now?"
Officer: "Not yet... let me finish writing your ticket and I'll send you on your way."


That seems like a bad way to answer questions. Believe me guys, I have "tested" LEO many times as a youth...and interfering with their questions, may result in a legal terry search that does not stop with in the drivers vicinity, (as it legally should) But usually ends up with all your sh*t on the curb for you to pick up after the cops hands you the ticket and leaves!

Not my idea of sunny afternoon...

[QUOTE=Deamer;1695300]I have a feeling if you are getting pulled over for that situation the LE is not just going to stroll up to your car and ask if you have a gun in the car.

That would be a "Felony stop" usually 2 cars, commands form loud speaker, out one by one, toss your keys, ect. then walk backwards and lay face down. All this while in gun sights.

Norcalkid
12-01-2008, 3:49 PM
I found this thread interesting. I was pulled over for a broken mirror when coming home from the range about 2 weeks ago (CHP). He didn’t ask and I didn’t volunteer any info. Everything was in the trunk. Nothing illegal to worry about anyway, but I sure didn’t want to get into a discussion about my OLL with him.


The question I have is. My lock on my trunk is broken. So the guns are in an unlocked trunk. If I do not consent to a search can they still search the trunk because it is not locked?

Norcalkid
12-01-2008, 4:28 PM
If your guns aren't otherwise locked up in a case, then transporting them in that fashion is illegal (12026.1). But back to your question.... I'm pretty sure just because your trunk isn't locked that that doesn't mean you can have your trunk searched (without probable cause). They're allowed to look at what's in plain sight, but opening your trunk is getting into your things.....probable cause would be needed, as far as I understand things.

Pistols in a locked case and cable lock on rifles.

NiteQwill
12-01-2008, 5:30 PM
I found this thread interesting. I was pulled over for a broken mirror when coming home from the range about 2 weeks ago (CHP). He didnít ask and I didnít volunteer any info. Everything was in the trunk. Nothing illegal to worry about anyway, but I sure didnít want to get into a discussion about my OLL with him.


The question I have is. My lock on my trunk is broken. So the guns are in an unlocked trunk. If I do not consent to a search can they still search the trunk because it is not locked?

Any long guns you don't need to worry about. 12025 does not cover long guns. You can have them unlocked, gun rack, whatever. Unloaded.

Handguns only need to be locked & concealed (unloaded) OR unloaded and plain sight.

Be wary of school zones though.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long day... :sleeping:

ke6guj
12-01-2008, 5:32 PM
Any long guns you don't need to worry about. 12025 does not cover long guns. You can have them unlocked, gun rack, whatever. Unloaded.
Minor correction. Any long guns that are not Registered AWs or 50BMG.

Norcalkid
12-01-2008, 5:43 PM
Minor correction. Any long guns that are not Registered AWs or 50BMG.

I regularly shoot my AR, itís a RAW. Does that mean it should be in a locked case?

MudCamper
12-01-2008, 5:47 PM
Hey, boss: you missed the PC exceptions that allows a target shooter to have concealed (but not loaded unless otherwise authorized) handguns while they travel to/from the range....also hunters and fishermen...

I believe this is what you are referring to:
12026.2.

No. He is refering to an additional, and little known, but very nice exemption from 12025 in 12027:

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

There are no locked case requirements for this exemption. But you must be a licensed hunter or a member of a shooting club, and on your way to/from the activity.

NiteQwill
12-01-2008, 5:57 PM
I regularly shoot my AR, itís a RAW. Does that mean it should be in a locked case?

yes

anthonyca
12-01-2008, 6:36 PM
This post is about a MINORITY of LEO and in no way a generalization of all LEO. My reason for posting is this small number of LEO type has caused much heartache, lost freedom, resentment and cost to many law abiding gun owners. I could not figure out how to ask these questions with out sounding like I was bashing all LEO.


Can the people who have been asked if they own a gun list to the best of their memory word for word how the conversation went? Some smilies to show how you and the officer were projecting through body language would help.

I am asked about weapons pretty much every time I am pulled over. Most of the time they make it sound like a joke and say something like "do you have any guns, knives, nukes, biological weapons, drugs or anything else I should know about? Then they usually smile or throw in a fake laugh. I drive a lot for work and have been pulled over many times and have gotten out of a ticket at least 8 of the last 9 times I was pulled over. Most of the time I was in my work truck when I was asked this.

The nature of a LEO position is one of authority and most of my friends and family and other LEO I have known become EXTREAMLY upset when that authority is challenged in anyway. Not answering a question fully or being a smart *** is like setting off a switch in many of their heads and the chemicals of anger start flowing. One of my best friends is an LEO and he shoots his gun in no shooting zones and drives like a maniac but you should see how upset he gets when I do something I shouldn't or talk about the 2nd amendment protecting our rights. So what is the experience of most of you? Am I just having bad luck or is this your experience?

The confusion above about how to transport legally is a reason I believe every gun owner in California should have this book with them any time they carry weapons incase some California minute detail slips their mind and they find them selfs in jail and loosing their rights and out their life savings. http://www.gunlawpress.com/

A copy of the calguns flowchart would also be with any OLL I was carrying.
Also some of the letters from the DOJ that Hoffmang, Bwise and Oaklander have posted would be very helpful. Not sure if a card from TMLLP or Don Kilmer would piss them off more or make them think twice about false arrest. What are your thoughts on this? By the way TMLLP KICKS A**. They do great work for us but if you get in this situation even if your are 100% legit and its a clear case of fasle arrest you need ATLEST a $10k evergreen retainer upfront for most good gun lawyers to help you. At the least carry their card and have them advise your counsel to consult them before doing ANYTHING with regards to firearms as this is a speacalty that most attorneys know almost NOTHING about. Don't ask me how I know.

A gun loving great SFPD officer I know though a friend tells us how there are many "haters" who want to make a name for them selfs and don't think that we have a right to own weapons. They love to gloat and after they arrest someone for doing something with a firearm that gets them an arrest. That is a small number of officers but only one needs to do this to you to ruin your life. Don't ask me how I know that either.:(

Most of us know how the media and DAs love to nail a gun owner as a "nut' with an "huge cache" of 2 OLLs and 250 rounds.

Sorry for the rant. So how did it go for you when your exercised your constitutional rights?

Any recomendations of vioce recorders?

ke6guj
12-01-2008, 6:40 PM
I regularly shoot my AR, itís a RAW. Does that mean it should be in a locked case?Yes, locked case or trunk in compliance with 12026.1.

12285(c) A person who has registered an assault weapon or registered a .50 BMG rifle under this section may possess it only under any of the following conditions unless a permit allowing additional uses is first obtained under Section 12286:
(7) While transporting the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle between any of the places mentioned in this subdivision, or to any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12290, for servicing or repair pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 12290, if the assault weapon is transported as required by Section 12026.1.

CalCop
12-01-2008, 7:42 PM
No. He is refering to an additional, and little known, but very nice exemption from 12025 in 12027:

There are no locked case requirements for this exemption. But you must be a licensed hunter or a member of a shooting club, and on your way to/from the activity.
Good stuff.

CalCop
12-01-2008, 7:46 PM
Any recomendations of vioce recorders? Dude, cops come in all shapes, sizes, and attitudes. If I told you all the cops I've worked with were cool, I'd be lying. If you want to play it safe. Keep em in the trunk. If you have the money to spare, and you want your name on case law while you teach a jerk cop his lesson...more power to ya...and yes, have a nice digital audio recorder if you choose that route.