PDA

View Full Version : Easing knife laws with Heller? Any chance?


CHS
11-13-2008, 2:00 PM
Just something I was thinking about a little bit earlier today. Most knife laws are based on the same unsound principles as Assault-Weapon laws.

"Ban what seems/sounds/looks scary, but functionally identical and in some cases less functional".

A switch-blade (or automatic) knife might open a little bit faster than my Benchmade axis-lock, but when it comes to USING the knife, it's functionally identical. Plus, some people and some standard knives can open faster than automatic knives.

Double-bladed knives? Please. They're going to make a stab wound just as easily as a single-edged knife. In fact, they'll do it cleaner which means less work in the hospital many times.

Bali-song/Butterfly knives. My god, I don't even know where to start on these things. A slower knife to open I've never seen in my life, except for maybe a little lock-back buck knife. Hell, these things cause more damage to users while opening than a would-be assailant! But they are scary looking. They make freaky ratchety noises while being opened.

Anyways, all of these kinds of knives and more are in many places illegal or regulated. You can have a switch-blade in CA as long as the blade length is under 2".

What chance is there to challenge some of these insane laws under the 2A and Heller? No one can reasonably say that these knives are any more dangerous than all of the millions of fixed or folding knives already legal. Well, they can, but they would be wrong or lying. Knives are definitely a type of arm (coming from the word armament). And Heller said that you can't just ban an entire category of functionally-equivalent arms. Some of these knives may be "unusual" but they aren't "dangerous" as in "more dangerous than the already-legal knives", so they shouldn't pass the "dangerous and unusual" test.

What say you guys?
















P.S. Yes, I *KNOW* firearms laws are a MUCH higher priority. They are to me as well. But it doesn't hurt to discuss/debate/educate.

Decoligny
11-13-2008, 2:33 PM
Double-bladed knives? Please. They're going to make a stab wound just as easily as a single-edged knife. In fact, they'll do it cleaner which means less work in the hospital many times.

There is nothing in the California Penal Code making double bladed (I assume you mean "double edged") knives illegal in California. This is a common misconception due to the Penal Code using the words "Dirk" and "Dagger".

The common definition of a dagger is a short pointed weapon with sharp "edges".

This insinuates that a dagger is a double edged knife.

The California Penal Code definition for a dagger is: a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

No mention at all of a dagger being "double bladed" of "double edged".

Basically a "dirk" or "dagger" is any knife at all, even a folder as long as it is open.

Thus according to the definition above, you could even have a pointed "knife" with no sharpened edge at all, and it would still be considered a "dirk" or "dagger".

hoffmang
11-13-2008, 4:04 PM
Knife laws can be attacked with Heller post Nordyke. That said, the state laws aren't all that bad. It is the localities that have some craziness.

-Gene

dwa
11-13-2008, 4:30 PM
if anything they should have a min leng reqirement, ie your switchblade must be at least 3 in long. i think knife laws are entirely stupid. whats next you cant have any improvised "clubs" which would be anything.

bulgron
11-13-2008, 4:45 PM
Knife laws can be attacked with Heller post Nordyke. That said, the state laws aren't all that bad. It is the localities that have some craziness.

-Gene

The one that says my 3" locking folder is a felony on school grounds pisses me off. I'm constantly having to remember to take it out of my pocket whenever I have to go to my kids' school for some function or another.

I don't think Heller or Nordyke will grant me any relief on that, though, since schools are acknowledged to be a "sensitive" area.

CCWFacts
11-13-2008, 4:48 PM
Knife laws might be challengeable but it's going to be hard attracting the funding or legal talent to take on knife issues. They will probably get challenged by criminal defendants, not in well-thought-out lawsuits like our current crop of gun rights cases. That's my guess.

GuyW
11-13-2008, 5:08 PM
Just wait for the winning gun-law Legal Briefs, then cut-n-paste "knife" into them... :)

forgiven
11-13-2008, 6:00 PM
25 years ago a police officer was taking me to jail before he decided that he wanted to be a nice guy over a double edge knife I had in my trunk. He said they were illegal in this state. I asked how come the knife store could sell them. He said they could be sold, but citizens couldn't be caught in possession with one. Go figure, I was just glad to get out of the back seat of the police car.

762cavalier
11-13-2008, 9:59 PM
Yup I had a nice police officer cut me a break by just confiscating my K-bar
:rolleyes:

Moonclip
11-14-2008, 1:34 AM
I am leery of carrying my Cold Steel triple action double edged folder due to the dirk and dagger thing and butterfly knifeish type action. I carry the single edged one a lot though.

CalNRA
11-14-2008, 2:43 AM
Knife laws can be attacked with Heller post Nordyke. That said, the state laws aren't all that bad. It is the localities that have some craziness.

-Gene

and the University police departments that threaten students with arrest for have a knife with locking blade of any blade length since they decided that a lock makes the knife a "fixed blade".:rolleyes:

nicki
11-14-2008, 1:48 PM
We have local knife laws because we don't have "state preemption on knifes".

The "Local Knife Laws" show us what could happen with "Guns" if we didn't have state preemption laws.

Another issue to look at are "Martial Arts" arms, things like swords, nunchuks, throwing stars, blow guns etc.

These are not "Common Arms" for Westerners, but they were common arms in Asia. The laws banning them obviously are racist in nature.

Certain martial arts arms would be useful defensive carry tools, such as nunchuks.

The issue is "Dangerous and Unusual Weapons" is a strange legal standard.

If weapons weren't "Dangerous", they wouldn't be "Weapons".
What defines "Unusual".

Perhaps this is something for future litigation, those are vague terms and need to be narrowed alot, personally I would like them eliminated, but that probably won't happen.

Nicki

Mulay El Raisuli
11-14-2008, 4:30 PM
Just wait for the winning gun-law Legal Briefs, then cut-n-paste "knife" into them... :)


I may just do that. Only using the word "sword" instead. After all, MILLER mentioned them. And, I see them at the shows a lot, which makes the "common" enough to challenge the laws, I think.

The Raisuli

Dont Tread on Me
11-15-2008, 8:49 AM
That said, the state laws aren't all that bad.

FIxed blade concealed carry being a felony is bad. I agree that we don't have blade length restrictions at a state level.

Max-the-Silent
11-15-2008, 9:01 AM
I bet you guys aren't old enough to remember the Kefauver hearings on Organized crime and Juvenile Delinquency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Subcommittee_on_Juvenile_Delinquency

It really was the AW hysteria of that time, and out of the hearings came the fed. switchblade laws - history repeats itself.

To answer your question, knife law reform isn't going to happen.