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MILLITIAof1
11-12-2008, 4:45 PM
Can someone educate me on the legalities of owning or selling a vintage night vision scope?
I have the opportunity to get one but I thought I would check first.

M. Sage
11-12-2008, 5:02 PM
If it can be weapon-mounted and has an illuminator, it's illegal in CA as a "sniper scope". If it's not weapon-mountable, or doesn't have an illuminator it's legal.

Using NVG and an NVG-compatible sight (Certain EOTechs, Aimpoints, etc.) is alright, too.

CaptMike
11-12-2008, 5:22 PM
Do you know what model of NVG gear? Is it rifle mounted, handheld or head mounted? is it a starlight scope or one of the older infrared units? give us some info so we can be of assistance.

MILLITIAof1
11-12-2008, 5:33 PM
it is a old russian rifle scope, it does not have a illuminator.
I will post pics in a couple minutes of what it is.

MILLITIAof1
11-12-2008, 5:56 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/2lm9vrt.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/20hpmye.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/149qhww.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/33er4g3.jpg

MILLITIAof1
11-12-2008, 6:01 PM
I would appreciate If anyone has any info on the price of one or if I can even list it on here.

MILLITIAof1
11-13-2008, 4:50 AM
anyone?

zatoh
11-13-2008, 9:03 AM
I used to want one of those ... I think the model name is something like "Pons" or something. Gen I, rough equivalent to the US ANPVS2. I might have info at home. No idea on price now-a-days. 10 years ago they were going for $300 but now with all the new stuff out there is less of a market for the older, especially Soviet era stuff. It might appeal to a collector though. Nice scope though. Does it work?

redcliff
11-13-2008, 11:12 AM
It's value is only as a collector piece really, or to finish off a retro Dragunov type build imho. So I'd guess 200-300 would be fair, maybe a bit more if you needed it for a period correct retro build.

Gen 1 stuff doesn't work very well (especially on cloudy nights or without much moon) and its heavy and bulky. Also they sometimes use batteries that are unobtanium.

As far as buying/selling it there should be no problem as long as you don't sell it for export. I know people with Gen 3 riflescopes and even a Thermal Imaging riflescope, all are legal in Ca as long you don't use an illuminator.

However when purchasing them from the distributor you have to provide a statement acknowledging that you will not export it. In the case of the Thermal Imaging scope he needed a letter from the head of a local LEA attesting to his character, which obviously was just the company's policy for civillian sales.

CCWFacts
11-13-2008, 11:26 AM
I used to want one of those ... I think the model name is something like "Pons" or something.

The writing on that scope does say PON and it looks like the company still exists and makes night vision stuff.

http://zomz.sposad.ru/Nablprib/NitPrib/Prits/pr2.gif

http://zomz.sposad.ru/En/EMain_NPribs.htm

It's a really good company. I know that because this is what they say about their factory:

In 1994 it was reformed into open joint-stock company "Zagorsk optical and mechanical plant " with mixed form of ownership. It is located in town Sergiev Posad of Moscow region. The territory occupied by the plant is 45 hectares. Working areas are 160 000 m2. The length of the roads within the territory of the plant is 8364 m, including cement concrete ones 1394m, asphalt ones 6970 m. There is a railroad with the length 3560 m, including inner one 1900 m.

Any company with that much railroad, asphalt road and cement road has gotta be good.

dwa
11-13-2008, 12:49 PM
sorry to be newbish about nv legalities, but any active ir is illegal in ca but passive is okay? lol that makes no sense if you had nefarious intentions. whats the legalities to ir fire control devices?

383green
11-13-2008, 1:10 PM
sorry to be newbish about nv legalities, but any active ir is illegal in ca but passive is okay? lol that makes no sense if you had nefarious intentions.

Maybe somebody else is more familiar with the history of the CA night vision laws, but the legal definition that CA uses is an accurate description of the old active IR scopes used on guns like the M3 Carbine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M1_z_celownikiem_noktowizyjnym.jpg

I think the law is simply very old, and it pre-dates modern passive NV equipment. It was probably unanticipated that it would fail to apply to modern NV gear because of the lack of an illuminator, and it's just the lawmakers' luck that some modern gear still contains an IR illuminator (generally an IR LED now) and thus is covered by the law.

dwa
11-13-2008, 3:34 PM
Maybe somebody else is more familiar with the history of the CA night vision laws, but the legal definition that CA uses is an accurate description of the old active IR scopes used on guns like the M3 Carbine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M1_z_celownikiem_noktowizyjnym.jpg

I think the law is simply very old, and it pre-dates modern passive NV equipment. It was probably unanticipated that it would fail to apply to modern NV gear because of the lack of an illuminator, and it's just the lawmakers' luck that some modern gear still contains an IR illuminator (generally an IR LED now) and thus is covered by the law.

that thing is bigger than the carbine, and i used to get mad about pvs 14's being too big.

383green
11-13-2008, 3:39 PM
What is not shown in the picture is the LARGE battery pack that is carried separately and connected to the scope+light by a cable! That's a big incandescent spotlight with an IR filter, and it probably sucks power like a car headlight.

dwa
11-13-2008, 7:46 PM
What is not shown in the picture is the LARGE battery pack that is carried separately and connected to the scope+light by a cable! That's a big incandescent spotlight with an IR filter, and it probably sucks power like a car headlight.

ya it kinda looks like a surefire hellfire, that this was a battery pig

Army
11-14-2008, 1:46 PM
No law against possession. Can't use to hunt (other than using it to spot or navigate).

The law specifies it as a "sniper scope", but ONLY if an illuminator is used. GEN-I needs an illuminator...and is also what/when the law was written about.

GEN-II usually needs one, but can be passively used with a full moon.

GEN-III does not need an illuminator. Requires minimal passive light sources.

GEN-IV is heavily restricted. Needs no obvious passive light (crazy stuff I got to play with not too long ago. A single candle will light up about an acre very well, a single IR-LED will turn on the day).

If you have GEN-III WITHOUT an illuminator, then the law does NOT apply. Mount it up and have fun.....................I do :)

383green
11-14-2008, 1:54 PM
GEN-I needs an illuminator...and is also what/when the law was written about.

I don't think that's quite correct. What I've seen called GEN-I are scopes which amplify visible light without using microchannel plates, such as the AN/PVS-2. While these scopes do not amplify light as much as the later generations, they will still work just fine without an illuminator as long as there is sufficient ambient light (such as moonlight). Since these scope are sensitive to short wavelength infrared light in addition to visible light, an IR illuminator can be used with them when desired.

That sniper scope on the M3 rifle, however, just amplifies IR light if I'm not mistaken. It always needs an illuminator, since it's not sensitive to the visible wavelengths present in moonlight and starlight. This scope, and I think the law that we're talking about, pre-date what we call GEN-I NV equipment.

JohnJW
11-14-2008, 2:01 PM
I think the law is simply very old, and it pre-dates modern passive NV equipment. It was probably unanticipated that it would fail to apply to modern NV gear because of the lack of an illuminator, and it's just the lawmakers' luck that some modern gear still contains an IR illuminator (generally an IR LED now) and thus is covered by the law.


I think the law was pass within the last 10 years. It's just stupid law makers writing laws in area they have very little knowledge of. Had they mandate active IR illuminator with NV scope, it would have been far more effective in catching would be criminals. Sometimes I wonder if our law makers write gun laws base on what they saw in Hollywood movies. . . .

gunsrfun
11-14-2008, 2:13 PM
So does that mean you can have a IR laser mounted on you gun, and a head worn NV device, and you would be legal? I have been thinking about buying a ebay military knock off IR laser.

dwa
11-14-2008, 6:16 PM
No law against possession. Can't use to hunt (other than using it to spot or navigate).

The law specifies it as a "sniper scope", but ONLY if an illuminator is used. GEN-I needs an illuminator...and is also what/when the law was written about.

GEN-II usually needs one, but can be passively used with a full moon.

GEN-III does not need an illuminator. Requires minimal passive light sources.

GEN-IV is heavily restricted. Needs no obvious passive light (crazy stuff I got to play with not too long ago. A single candle will light up about an acre very well, a single IR-LED will turn on the day).

If you have GEN-III WITHOUT an illuminator, then the law does NOT apply. Mount it up and have fun.....................I do :)

does the gen IV have problems with whiteing out of does it adapt well if they alot of ambient light?

MILLITIAof1
11-14-2008, 6:53 PM
so here is the big question of the thread, does anybody think this scope would sell on here? I did not know if there was any demand for these at all...
what seems like a fairprice as well?

JDay
11-15-2008, 4:38 AM
sorry to be newbish about nv legalities, but any active ir is illegal in ca but passive is okay? lol that makes no sense if you had nefarious intentions. whats the legalities to ir fire control devices?

Just active ir scopes, you ca go to big5 and buy active night vision gear that is not weapons mountable.

zatoh
11-19-2008, 11:03 PM
http://www.binoculars.ru/images/inv/ponik378.jpg
Here is your unit. I do not read cyrillic...maybe babelfish can translate:

http://www.binoculars.ru/article/rus/nv/ponik378r.htm

I don't know why but the word "ponik" popped up just right now and I told myself "that's it!". The mind is an amazing thing.

Here's a translation:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.binoculars.ru%2Farticle%2Fr us%2Fnv%2Fponik378r.htm&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

383green
11-19-2008, 11:54 PM
The translation says that the scope includes an IR illuminator, which would make it non-OK for rifle mounting in our fine state. I don't see where the illuminator is located, unless it is in the end of the doodad in the center of the objective lens (which may also contain the aiming reticle and a reticle illuminator, if the reticle isn't simply etched on the rear end of the tube; I've seen it done both ways).

Come to think of it, my old non-rifle-mounted Russian NV scope had an illuminator that was an IR LED mounted behind a focusing lens. It looks like there could be a similar assembly in that objective lens doodad.

zatoh
11-20-2008, 7:33 AM
From what I recall seeing these at the shows the IR illuminator is mounted center line with the axis of the lens, right smack dab in the middle.
The translation says that the scope includes an IR illuminator, which would make it non-OK for rifle mounting in our fine state. I don't see where the illuminator is located, unless it is in the end of the doodad in the center of the objective lens (which may also contain the aiming reticle and a reticle illuminator, if the reticle isn't simply etched on the rear end of the tube; I've seen it done both ways).

Come to think of it, my old non-rifle-mounted Russian NV scope had an illuminator that was an IR LED mounted behind a focusing lens. It looks like there could be a similar assembly in that objective lens doodad.

Czechsix
11-20-2008, 10:06 AM
GEN-IV is heavily restricted. Needs no obvious passive light (crazy stuff I got to play with not too long ago. A single candle will light up about an acre very well, a single IR-LED will turn on the day).

If you have GEN-III WITHOUT an illuminator, then the law does NOT apply. Mount it up and have fun.....................I do :)

So what's heavily restricted about GenIV?

Just curious, since it's just an upgrade from the previous generations, and doesn't need an IR spotlight/helper light. It should be G2G, other than cost. Which is probably a choker.

dwtt
11-20-2008, 6:24 PM
So what's heavily restricted about GenIV?

Just curious, since it's just an upgrade from the previous generations, and doesn't need an IR spotlight/helper light. It should be G2G, other than cost. Which is probably a choker.

Does anyone here really know the differences between Generation I, II, and III
image intensifiers? The Gen IV label is really a marketing tool and not a real significant technological advance.

redcliff
11-20-2008, 6:48 PM
Generation I light amplification is approximate 1,000x

Generation II light amplification is approximately 20,000x

Generation III light amplification is approximately 30-50,000x

Each successive generation also has improvements in clarity and optics.

383green
11-20-2008, 10:33 PM
I think that the Gen I AN/PVS-2 scope has light amplification considerably higher than 1000x, but it and its relatives like the AN/TVS-2 have three cascaded image intensifiers in the tube housing. I used to have one of each, and they worked much better than my crappy old Russian scope. I got rid of all of them once I got my first Gen II scope (an AN/VVS-2 night vision tank periscope), and then traded that off once I got a set of Gen II AN/PVS-5 goggles.

In my experience, the good US Gen I equipment makes the Russian Gen I stuff look like junk, and the Gen II stuff makes any of the Gen I stuff look like junk. I haven't managed to afford any Gen III stuff yet.

sb_pete
11-20-2008, 11:04 PM
I think the law was pass within the last 10 years. It's just stupid law makers writing laws in area they have very little knowledge of... Sometimes I wonder if our law makers write gun laws base on what they saw in Hollywood movies. . . .
I think that is exactly what they base many laws off of...


Had they mandate active IR illuminator with NV scope, it would have been far more effective in catching would be criminals.
I really can't imagine any criminal smart/sophisticated/financed enough to be using advanced NV gear that would be purchasing the stuff through std channels and leaving a paper trail. If the equipment gets lost or ditched, there would be a trail back to them. Also, what are you imagining their use of an IR illuminator would reveal? What kind of crime are you thinking of where the potential victim is going to be tipped off by IR light emissions?

tetris
11-21-2008, 6:21 AM
What kind of crime are you thinking of where the potential victim is going to be tipped off by IR light emissions?

Um, how about the crime of when you go to the gym and some bast4rd changes your TV station with an identical remote from the next treadmill?