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View Full Version : Can I sell C&R FTF


nrakid88
11-12-2008, 2:39 PM
I originally posted this in C&R but I think this is a better place for it. I have five rifles that I have collected over the past four years that I want to sell. I bought them all at Big5 and turners, but I think they might all be C&R. Mosin Nagant 91/30, Yugo M24/47 mauser, Enfield No. 4 Mk. I, and a Swiss K-31. I have done cosmetic work on all but the Yugo, refinishing wood and metal, so would that void the C&R status. And if they are C&R does that mean I can sell them to someone without a FFL doing the paperwork? Or do they still have to go through an FFL, I don't have a C&R license. Also I have a Yugo 59/66, but I don't know if that is C&R. Thanks for the help guys.

Saigon1965
11-12-2008, 2:47 PM
You can sell the C&R FTF - Get the buyers driver's license for your records.

nrakid88
11-12-2008, 2:54 PM
Does the SKS qualify as C&R?

Saigon1965
11-12-2008, 3:00 PM
That I am unsure of - Not familiar with the rifle. Someone will chime in soon enough.

Librarian
11-12-2008, 4:01 PM
I originally posted this in C&R but I think this is a better place for it. I have five rifles that I have collected over the past four years that I want to sell. I bought them all at Big5 and turners, but I think they might all be C&R. Mosin Nagant 91/30, Yugo M24/47 mauser, Enfield No. 4 Mk. I, and a Swiss K-31. I have done cosmetic work on all but the Yugo, refinishing wood and metal, so would that void the C&R status. And if they are C&R does that mean I can sell them to someone without a FFL doing the paperwork? Or do they still have to go through an FFL, I don't have a C&R license. Also I have a Yugo 59/66, but I don't know if that is C&R. Thanks for the help guys.

PC 12078 (t)
(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

Transfers of non-handgun Curios and Relics, at least 50 years old, do not have to go through a FFL dealer, and no paper is required. This applies both to licensed C&R collectors and those without the license.
I have no idea what refinishing does to legal C&R status.

And, as usual, 'infrequent' means 5 or fewer transactions per calendar year. Nope - that's handguns. Thanks, EODGuy!

Mssr. Eleganté
11-12-2008, 5:02 PM
Does the SKS qualify as C&R?

Yes, the SKS qualifies as C&R.

But no, the SKS does not qualify for paperless FTF sale.

To qualify for paperless FTF sale a long gun needs to be C&R and at least 50 years old. The Yugo M59/66 started production in 1966 and was produced for many years.

M. Sage
11-12-2008, 5:04 PM
The 59/66 is not an SKS, it's an SKS derivative.

IIRC, all long guns older than 50 years are FTF paperless.

Moonclip
11-12-2008, 5:50 PM
You can sell the C&R FTF - Get the buyers driver's license for your records.

I personally wont do this as it is not required except when buying from a C&R FFL holder and because I am not giving a perfect stranger my dl info which also contains the address of where many more of the guns I own may be stored...

If this precludes me from buying a $100 Mosin Nagant, so be it.

.22guy
11-12-2008, 6:15 PM
Yes, the SKS qualifies as C&R.

But no, the SKS does not qualify for paperless FTF sale.

To qualify for paperless FTF sale a long gun needs to be C&R and at least 50 years old. The Yugo M59/66 started production in 1966 and was produced for many years.

Correct. Make sure the 59/66 doesn't have the grenade launcher or is welded over with a sleeve before you try to sell it.

PsychoTrucker
11-12-2008, 6:50 PM
when you start selling them let me know and i'll buy that mauser from you

762cavalier
11-12-2008, 7:17 PM
:Ivan:

nrakid88
11-13-2008, 1:20 AM
Holy crap, everyone is sending me PM's asking for my guns, I guess I will just put them up in the for sale forum and it'll be first come first serve...

EOD Guy
11-13-2008, 4:06 AM
And, as usual, 'infrequent' means 5 or fewer transactions per calendar year.

No, it means "occasionaly and without regularity." The 5 transaction limit is for handguns.

Librarian
11-13-2008, 9:43 AM
No, it means "occasionaly and without regularity." The 5 transaction limit is for handguns.
Ah, you're right! Obviously have been too focused on handguns.
(c) (1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being
concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar
year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or
transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without
regularity.

Pouchey
03-15-2009, 1:39 PM
Fellas,
Is there a link you can send me to that digs through this a little deeper? I really want to get my ducks in a row before I as a non-ffl ppt a 91/30.

Thx guys,

Ian

Mssr. Eleganté
03-15-2009, 1:46 PM
Fellas,
Is there a link you can send me to that digs through this a little deeper? I really want to get my ducks in a row before I as a non-ffl ppt a 91/30.

Thx guys,

Ian

The actual California Penal Code was posted in post number 5 of this thread. What other information are you looking for?

Pouchey
03-15-2009, 1:54 PM
Thank you, I read the code, but I had questions on liability etc.
If I as a legal owner of a DROS'd firearm was to PPT to an other qualified (if that is even relevant) buyer and said buyer had said weapon stolen by a 'bad guy' and this 'bad guy' was to commit a crime with said weapon, would I be free of liability even though I was the only individual (other than a russian soldier) to ever have any paperwork associated with said 50+ year old rifle? It may be silly and I may be over doing it here but I want to keep in good legal standing.

Thx again,

Ian

Mssr. Eleganté
03-15-2009, 2:13 PM
You wouldn't have any criminal liability, since you would have followed the law to the letter. If the guy you sold the gun to used it to commit a crime you might be sued by the victim in civil court. But you can be sued in civil court for anything these days.

Another thing, when the cops find a criminal with a gun, they can easily find the last registered owner by checking CalDOJ's database. But this only works for most handguns and registered assualt weapons. Regular long guns are not registered in California. If they wanted to find the last owner of a long gun they would have to get the manufacture's or importer's name off of the weapon and run the serial number through them. The manufacture or importer would then check to see which distributer they sold the gun to. The distributer could then check to see what gunshop they sold the gun to. The gunshop could then check to see who they sold the gun to.

This is a time consuming process for the police. They aren't going to do it if they already have the badguy. They will typically only do it if they find a murder weapon by itself, with no suspect, and need to associate the gun with somebody in order to have a suspect.

Pouchey
03-15-2009, 2:19 PM
Thank you. I am always scared that the DROS is defacto registration, which it appears to be, but sure I can stick to the letter.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-15-2009, 2:30 PM
Thank you. I am always scared that the DROS is defacto registration, which it appears to be, but sure I can stick to the letter.

The DROS really is defacto registration for handguns. But for a long gun DROS, the type, make, model, caliber, and serial number information are not even included. All CalDOJ knows from a long gun DROS is that you bought a long gun from a Dealer on that date. And they don't even retain that information for very long.

The information they need to trace a long gun is only stored by the FFL's who handled the gun along the path from importer/manufacturer to the dealer. And if the cops only have the gun then they can only start at the beginning of the line, with the importer/manufacturer. If the cops only have your name and wanted to know what long guns you own, then they would have to ask every FFL in the country to search 20 years of handwritten 4473 records for your name. They would also have to ask BATFE to search through all of the records from FFL's who have gone out of business since your 18th birthday. Not gonna happen.