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View Full Version : GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE: The TRUTH, whole Truth & nothing but...


melensdad
11-12-2008, 12:01 PM
This topic came up on another gun website and I thought there might be some people here who do not know that the heck the scam is behind the "gun show loophole" so I am posting my post from that website here. Let me preface this by saying I don't know the California laws, I live in Indiana. I suspect, from what I read here, that you folks probably have laws like Illinois and a few other very restrictive states


In the Sarah Brady email thread there were a couple posts about the so-called "gun show loophole" and I figured I would start a new thread about that topic so it was very clear exactly what this sham of a law is all about!

what is this gunshow loophole i keep hearing about ?Personal sales at gunshows are not required to do a background check on firearms. If you wanted to rent a booth at your local gunshow to get rid of some of your guns you wouldnt have to do background checks only dealers have to.

While I'm sure there are some gun shows that allow non-licensed individuals to rent a booth/table, I know of none in my area that allow this. I do know that occasionally people will walk a show floor with a gun they want to sell. But in any case these are rare sales at gun shows. They do exist. They probably amount to 1% of the gun show sales? Maybe less?

But where the real problem with the "gun show loophole" rests is not at gun shows!

They want to eliminate a gift from a father to a son. They want to eliminate inheriting guns that have been passed down over generations. They want to eliminate all legal private transfers (sales, gifts) of firearms. Why? Because these private father/son type transfers make up the vast majority of all private transfers in the USA So if you want to give your son his first shotgun, you have to buy it. Then you wrap it up with Christmas wrapping paper and give it to him. You legally still own the gun. But he opened it on Christmas morning and you all agreed it was his. Then on his 18th birthday you have to go to your local FFL dealer and pay a transfer fee to give it to your son again.

So why eliminate all private transfers when the overwhelming majority of them are between family members?

The 'gun show loophole' is called that because it sounds better and makes uninformed people believe that all sales at a gun show are exempt from the NICS back ground checks. Really what they are trying to do is eliminate all private sales or transfers of firearms, even those between family members.

It should also be noted that some states have closed the gun show loophole. Illinois is one of those. All transfers of guns go through a FFL, but first you must hold a Firearm Owners I.D. card before you can receive a transferred firearm.

Let me tell you a true "gun show loophole" story that involved some close family friends who live just over the state line from me, but they are in Illinois.

So my friend's father in Illinois died, the widow was left with several guns. Those guns became immediately illegal for her to possess because she did not have a FOID card. Shortly after the funeral my friend showed up in my office parking lot with her father's guns. 2 Winchester shotguns, a Baby Browning, Ruger 10/22 and a box of 22 ammo. They are now stored in my gun safe (which resides in the free state of Indiana) while they figure out what to do with the guns. Again, in Illinois you must have a F.O.I.D. card which is a state issued permission card to possess a gun. Since Illinois closed the loophole, when my friend's dad died her mother could not legally take "ownership" of the guns that she had in her house. My friend could not legally take "ownership" of the guns either. Neither had a FOID card. So no dealer could transfer the guns to either of them. So they spirited the guns out of state and locked them up while they figure out how to comply with the law. In the mean time the widow moved out of state and my friend moved out of state. So now I'm guessing that from the perspective of the state of Illinois these people can never own the guns.

Fortunately both the widow and my friend moved to 'free' states. I suspect both can legally possess these guns in their respective states, even without a transfer because both qualify as inheriting them and both live in states where the gift or inheritance of a gun is perfectly legal. Silly that their home state made them criminals for possessing them. Now if they wanted to stay in Illinois they could engage a lawyer, who could have worked through the system to get the gun ownership changed. But since when did you need a lawyer to take 'ownership' of what is already yours, in your house, and in your physical possession?

Had the same thing happened in Indiana, Pennsylvania, Florida, Texas, Wyoming, New Hampshire, Tennessee, or a few dozen other states, then the legal ownership of the guns would have transferred to the heirs. No paperwork, no added grief, no felony for illegal possession of a firearm.


That my friends, is the so-called gun show loophole.

Obama may be spreading the wealth,
I intend to spread the TRUTH!

Ding126
11-12-2008, 12:15 PM
How does one go about to get a FOID card? Would that have been the easiest thing to do?

megavolt121
11-12-2008, 12:42 PM
FOID's are a crock of $*** and only used in Illinois. Looks even a 10 month old has one:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3262259

melensdad
11-12-2008, 7:45 PM
How does one go about to get a FOID card? Would that have been the easiest thing to do?
Nope, its not quite that easy. It can take up to 6 weeks to get the card. In the mean time the possession of the guns is a felony. So the guns had to be moved out of state. If another family member had a FOID card at the time of death, then a dealer, with proper documentation from a lawyer/judge, could have initiated the transfer.

Realize that private transfers between family members are legal under federal law.

Also realize that California and Illinois are some of the few states that do not allow this type of transfer. I believe nearly 40 of our 50 states allow parents to gift guns to their children, grandparents to their heirs, etc. So the 'gunshow loophole' is something that affects a huge number of honest citizens and very very few criminals.

FOID's are a crock of $***
Yup

kermit315
11-12-2008, 9:03 PM
Illinois has no prohibition on private party transfers except that they tell you that you have to honor the waiting periods (24hrs for long gun, 72 for hand gun). Yes, you have to have a FOID to buy or possess guns or ammo in Illinois (actually, I am not sure on the possession of ammo, just the buying).**EDIT- I looked it up, and ammo is forbidden if you dont have a FOID also, so dont possess ammo in Illinois, if you are an Illinois resident, without a FOID.** When you sell a gun in Illinois, you are supposed to exchange FOID numbers and keep a record for 10 years.

Here is how to get a FOID:
1. have a passport picture taken of yourself. (polaroids also work, thats how I got my first one).

2. download and fill out the application.

3. put picture, application and 10 dollars now (for ten years, used to be 5 for 5) in envelope, put stamp on envelope, and mail to State Police in Springfield.

4. wait, wait, wait, they will issue it whenever they get around to it. Yeah, they say they will decide within 30 days, but I know of numerous people who have had their checks cashed and have to bug them for it for at least 3 months before they finally got their new cards in the mail.

and yes, FOID sucks

edit: the above is from personal experience. here is a link to confirm for those who would like more information.

http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/9-049.pdf

EDIT#2: She could have kept the guns, she just had to apply for and be approved for a FOID with in 60 days. after that, she would have had to get rid of them.

(430 ILCS 65/12) (from Ch. 38, par. 83‑12)
Sec. 12. The provisions of this Act shall not apply to the passing or transfer of any firearm or firearm ammunition upon the death of the owner thereof to his heir or legatee or to the passing or transfer of any firearm or firearm ammunition incident to any legal proceeding or action until 60 days after such passing or transfer.
(Source: Laws 1967, p. 2600.)

kermit315
11-13-2008, 9:09 PM
also, "private party transfer" is a California term. Here, when you say FTF, you mean (or should mean) PPT. Anywhere else, FTF means just that, FTF.