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DrjonesUSA
11-12-2008, 11:29 AM
I just started reading this book last night and had to force myself to put it down & get to bed.

The author absolutely nails the reasons why conservatives lose, and this is also why we lost the white house. It is something that I realized some time ago: WE ARE COWARDS. Or at least those we have chosen to represent us are.

We are always on the defensive, never the offensive.

We allow the left to frame the issues and the debate.

We do not stand up and YELL for what we believe in.

Ignore this book and let's continue to lose.

Read it and let's get back on track.


http://www.amazon.com/Art-Political-Other-Radical-Pursuits/dp/1890626287/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226517787&sr=8-1

M. D. Van Norman
11-12-2008, 1:50 PM
There’s that, and then there’s the fact that when “conservatives” are in power, they ignore their core principles of limited government.

Whiskey_Sauer
11-12-2008, 2:00 PM
There’s that, and then there’s the fact that when “conservatives” are in power, they ignore their core principles of limited government.

Yep. Conservatives didn't lose, the GOP did.

CCWFacts
11-12-2008, 2:18 PM
There’s that, and then there’s the fact that when “conservatives” are in power, they ignore their core principles of limited government.

Some people are saying that this thrashing defeat will serve as a wake-up for conservatives to get back to their core principles: small government, low taxes, avoid foreign interventions, etc. Certainly the Bush administration did not follow those concepts.

Ford8N
11-12-2008, 4:19 PM
Some people are saying that this thrashing defeat will serve as a wake-up for conservatives to get back to their core principles: small government, low taxes, avoid foreign interventions, etc. Certainly the Bush administration did not follow those concepts.

Yup

Conservatives can start by getting the hell out of people's bedrooms and doctor's offices. They sure would stand a better chance of getting elected here in this state.

bwiese
11-12-2008, 4:27 PM
Yup

Conservatives can start by getting the hell out of people's bedrooms and doctor's offices. They sure would stand a better chance of getting elected here in this state.

Yep, certainly in California.
And gun control issues in CA are a direct result of this due to R's rendering themselves well-nigh unelectable to statewide office.

movie zombie
11-12-2008, 5:45 PM
nailed it on the head each and everyone of you.

movie zombie

M. Sage
11-12-2008, 6:00 PM
Everybody lost... There wasn't a conservative running is one of the problems.

forgiven
11-12-2008, 6:08 PM
My old man has been saying this for years. Wish he would have written this book, because he would of bought me some guns.

JohnJW
11-12-2008, 7:16 PM
We may need dissociate gun rights from the "conservative" movement. The silver lining behind prop 8 is that everyday more of the Yes on 8 people die off while fresh no on 8 people are being born. I hope the same is not true for gun rights. I would hate to have to defend my semi-autos against an unsympathetic population in my later years. Does anyone know how the "younger" generation view "guns" in general? Is there a generational divide on "gun control" issues?

Satex
11-12-2008, 7:55 PM
You need to read a book to understand why the Republicans lost the election?
You must not be in tune with the last 8 years of this administration ;)

DedEye
11-12-2008, 8:02 PM
Yep. Conservatives didn't lose, the GOP did.

Exactly. Real conservatives weren't in power, so how could they lost it?

DrjonesUSA
11-12-2008, 8:13 PM
We may need dissociate gun rights from the "conservative" movement.


Because dems are real vanguards of the 2A...........

Citizen Snips
11-12-2008, 8:28 PM
We may need dissociate gun rights from the "conservative" movement. The silver lining behind prop 8 is that everyday more of the Yes on 8 people die off while fresh no on 8 people are being born. I hope the same is not true for gun rights. I would hate to have to defend my semi-autos against an unsympathetic population in my later years. Does anyone know how the "younger" generation view "guns" in general? Is there a generational divide on "gun control" issues?
It's impossible to measure, but it does seem there is a generational divide. Many factors contribute to it but the core issue is the lack of positive exposure to firearms and safety learned at young ages. Kids are all but programmed to be ignorant of firearms by ignorant PS teachers and parents. Nobody knows the truth that there are only about 80,000 police officers in a nation of 300 million citizens so it is not possible to require them to protect individuals and in effect they are not legally obligated to personally protect anyone who is not in custody. The adage that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away is not drilled into their minds. They rationalize being robbed and just giving their identity, possessions, or very lives up with being "not worth fighting for." When the ignorant kids grow up and are of voting age, bad things start to happen.

unusedusername
11-12-2008, 8:42 PM
We may need dissociate gun rights from the "conservative" movement. The silver lining behind prop 8 is that everyday more of the Yes on 8 people die off while fresh no on 8 people are being born. I hope the same is not true for gun rights. I would hate to have to defend my semi-autos against an unsympathetic population in my later years. Does anyone know how the "younger" generation view "guns" in general? Is there a generational divide on "gun control" issues?

It depends on what you mean. I'm 26. I like guns. I work with other people my age. When we talk about what we do on the weekends, guns inevitably come up.

Its a normal talking point around the water-cooler in the small group that I work in anyways.

I don't work in anything gun-related either, just a bunch of office people.

WhoDat
11-12-2008, 8:44 PM
Republicans lost, not conservatives.

mcubed4130
11-12-2008, 9:16 PM
Small point of order folks - there hasn't been a conservative in the white house since... 1989.

And if you want to get technical - that conservative - was a die-hard Democrat for 51 years of his life... before he got sick of the internal politicking of his own party - and the fact that they wouldn't let him run... so he switched parties...

Ever wonder why the term Reagan Democrats gets used?

-M3

Liberty1
11-12-2008, 9:30 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul490.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/11/paul.republican/index.html

"...In the rise and fall of the recent Republican reign of power these past decades, the goal of the party had grown to be only that of gaining and maintaining power – with total sacrifice of the original Republican belief in shrinking the size of government.

Most Republicans endorsed this view in order to achieve victories at the polls. Limiting government power and size with less spending and a balanced budget as the goal used to be a "traditional" Republican value. This is what Goldwater and Reagan talked about. That is what the Contract with America stood for."

M. D. Van Norman
11-12-2008, 9:51 PM
Because dems are real vanguards of the 2A...........

If the Democrats drop gun control, the Republican Party is finished.

trashman
11-12-2008, 9:54 PM
Ever wonder why the term Reagan Democrats gets used?


Heh. It wasn't because Reagan was a Democrat (thought he was, in fact, previously as you describe) -- it's because his appeal to centrists of both parties was what gave him a convincing mandate - even if he didn't adhere to said principles, he sure convinced a whole lotta voters that he stood for what they believed in.

There is a lesson to be gleaned here, and it ain't that the Republican Party needs to move farther off the right edge of the map here...nationally or state-wide..

--Neill

mcubed4130
11-12-2008, 10:14 PM
If the Democrats drop gun control, the Republican Party is finished.

Republicans.... uhhmmm ohh... yes... I vaguely recall them...

ybq73Nk81yc

They are the party - that worked really really hard to make themselves extinct! :) And are a few seats shy of succeeding!

-M3

DrjonesUSA
11-13-2008, 2:10 PM
If the Democrats drop gun control, the Republican Party is finished.


And if I were Bill Gates.............

And if pigs could fly...........

You go ahead and wait for the zebra to change his stripes.....call me when that happens........

CCWFacts
11-13-2008, 3:54 PM
I'm glad to see the Republican governors' conference understands what's going on (saying pretty much exactly what I said earlier in this thread):

Without naming names, they said party leaders had betrayed their values by expanding government, running up massive debts and bailing out companies whose own self-dealing brought on the nation's financial mess.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE4AC91T20081113

valleyguy
11-13-2008, 4:52 PM
Echoing an earlier comment here, decoupling 2A rights from the conservative movement is key to preserving them with regards to future gun control legislation. Political parties and movements win in some years and lose with others, and the result is the back and forth we've seen with the AW ban and other unfavorable legislation.

The other part is that by making it only a conservative cause, you make it harder on those of us who are not conservatives necessarily to support the cause, just by association. Not all gun owners or Calguns members agree with the anti- illegal immigration, anti gay marriage, anti-abortion platform of the conservative parties, but still could be very pro-gun. Regardless of how you feel about these issues, you must admit that packaging them all in the same party wrapper makes it hard on the general public as a whole to support our 2A rights.

There are already conservative/Republican congressmen who have supported gun control legislation, and Democrats who have taken the opposite side, and supported our RKBA. This needs to be made more clear, and more of an effort needs to be made on places like this to join forces on this issue.

I'm not saying we all have to agree, or that we shouldn't debate (civilly) on issues, but I do think we here need to make more of an effort not to attack everyone who is participating here because of a disagreement on one issue. After all, we're all here for at least one of the same reasons, and presumably share the same interests in the 2A and RKBA. The more people we can get over here, the better, even those who might be far left liberals. I know a lot of liberals who have a guilty pleasure/interest in guns and gun ownership -- they just need people like us to help them break the ice and get involved.

EDIT -- and sorry to threadjack, I know this went a bit off-topic, the earlier post just got me thinking about this. Sorry about that.

MudCamper
11-13-2008, 5:02 PM
Echoing an earlier comment here, decoupling 2A rights from the conservative movement is key to preserving them with regards to future gun control legislation. Political parties and movements win in some years and lose with others, and the result is the back and forth we've seen with the AW ban and other unfavorable legislation.

The other part is that by making it only a conservative cause, you make it harder on those of us who are not conservatives necessarily to support the cause, just by association. Not all gun owners or Calguns members agree with the anti- illegal immigration, anti gay marriage, anti-abortion platform of the conservative parties, but still could be very pro-gun. Regardless of how you feel about these issues, you must admit that packaging them all in the same party wrapper makes it hard on the general public as a whole to support our 2A rights.

There are already conservative/Republican congressmen who have supported gun control legislation, and Democrats who have taken the opposite side, and supported our RKBA. This needs to be made more clear, and more of an effort needs to be made on places like this to join forces on this issue.

I'm not saying we all have to agree, or that we shouldn't debate (civilly) on issues, but I do think we here need to make more of an effort not to attack everyone who is participating here because of a disagreement on one issue. After all, we're all here for at least one of the same reasons, and presumably share the same interests in the 2A and RKBA. The more people we can get over here, the better, even those who might be far left liberals. I know a lot of liberals who have a guilty pleasure/interest in guns and gun ownership -- they just need people like us to help them break the ice and get involved.

EDIT -- and sorry to threadjack, I know this went a bit off-topic, the earlier post just got me thinking about this. Sorry about that.

Threadjack appreciated. You make very valid and important points. Thank you.

DrjonesUSA
11-13-2008, 5:46 PM
Threadjack appreciated. You make very valid and important points. Thank you.


Agreed.