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cheet
11-11-2008, 12:17 AM
My dad owns private property in my city. Am I allowed to conceal carry on that property without a CCW?

leelaw
11-11-2008, 12:23 AM
What kind of property?

Generally yes, if you have permission from the property owner.

wrs916
11-11-2008, 12:24 AM
My dad owns private property in my city. Am I allowed to conceal carry on that property without a CCW?

If you do not actually inhabit said property, you need to have written expressed permission (to legally CYA/CHA aka "Cover Your A**/Cover His A**") from your father to be on his land you can do pretty much as you please to protect your/his personal property.

Depending upon where you live (city wise) you need to keep a weapon completely concealed (if weapon becomes visible even on private property a passerby can call the authorities and report you for a PC 417 (Brandishing a weapon) or just have it as an "open California carry" and really freak people the f**k out.

cheet
11-11-2008, 12:28 AM
It is commercial real estate, a shopping center.

And yes I would keep it completely concealed.

wrs916
11-11-2008, 12:32 AM
It is commercial real estate, a shopping center.

And yes I would keep it completely concealed.


So long as it's at least 1,000 feet away from a public school do as you please. You have rights under 2A that allow you to protect your family's property.

cheet
11-11-2008, 12:34 AM
So long as it's at least 1,000 feet away from a public school do as you please. You have rights under 2A that allow you to protect your family's property.

Should I still get that letter like you recommended? If so, would making up our own be ok or would I be better off having an attorney draft something?

wrs916
11-11-2008, 12:45 AM
Should I still get that letter like you recommended? If so, would making up our own be ok or would I be better off having an attorney draft something?

Just type it up and have your father's named typed in and his actual (black ink) signature on the document then just to CYA take it to a notary public.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-11-2008, 12:56 AM
If you do not actually inhabit said property, you need to have written expressed permission (to legally CYA/CHA aka "Cover Your A**/Cover His A**") from your father to be on his land you can do pretty much as you please to protect your/his personal property.

Depending upon where you live (city wise) you need to keep a weapon completely concealed (if weapon becomes visible even on private property a passerby can call the authorities and report you for a PC 417 (Brandishing a weapon) or just have it as an "open California carry" and really freak people the f**k out.

I understand your intention of giving advice that will help someone stay out of trouble, but much of what you have said is simply inaccurate.

A person does NOT need written expressed permission to conceal carry on anothers private property...they simply need permission, either verbal or written. Sure, written permission would CYA, but its not required by law.

Depending upon where you live (city wise) you need to keep a weapon completely concealed (if weapon becomes visible even on private property a passerby can call the authorities and report you for a PC 417 (Brandishing a weapon) or just have it as an "open California carry" and really freak people the f**k out.

You can either open or concealed carry on private property. Simply open carrying a handgun is not grounds for a brandishing charge.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-11-2008, 12:57 AM
So long as it's at least 1,000 feet away from a public school do as you please. You have rights under 2A that allow you to protect your family's property.

Another inaccurate statement. The school zone laws against firearms do not apply to private property.

wrs916
11-11-2008, 1:02 AM
Another inaccurate statement. The school zone laws against firearms do not apply to private property.

Check again bro. School's regardless of their locale to residences have California mandated legislation stating that a person CANNOT have a loaded firearm within 1,000 feet of a public education school.

We just REcovered this topic in a POST refresher course I recently took.


As for the brandishing comment......I simply meant from a CCW standpoint. Obviously if you're open carrying in a belted holster it's what? VISIBLE. Brandishing would be if a person place their hand on their sidearm in a manner which could be viewed as a threatening act.

leelaw
11-11-2008, 1:13 AM
Check again bro. School's regardless of their locale to residences have California mandated legislation stating that a person CANNOT have a loaded firearm within 1,000 feet of a public education school.

We just REcovered this topic in a POST refresher course I recently took.


As for the brandishing comment......I simply meant from a CCW standpoint. Obviously if you're open carrying in a belted holster it's what? VISIBLE. Brandishing would be if a person place their hand on their sidearm in a manner which could be viewed as a threatening act.

Cite the law.

You may carry a concealed, loaded firearm on/in your private property within 1,000 feet of a school. The law covers firearms in a public place within 1,000 feet of the school (ie: transporting from your front door to your car parked on the street while you get ready to go to the range), but they can not regulate the carry within a private property.

A quick Google search brings up:



Firearms on School Grounds
It is unlawful for any person to possess or bring a firearm upon the grounds of, into, or
within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school providing instruction in
kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or a campus of the University of California,
California State University, or California community colleges. (Penal Code § 626.9.)

Exceptions
...
Within a place of residence or place of business or on private property, if the place
of residence, place of business, or private property is not part of the school grounds
and the possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful.

FreedomIsNotFree generally knows what he's talking about. ;)

dreyna14
11-11-2008, 1:23 AM
Check again bro. School's regardless of their locale to residences have California mandated legislation stating that a person CANNOT have a loaded firearm within 1,000 feet of a public education school.

We just REcovered this topic in a POST refresher course I recently took.


As for the brandishing comment......I simply meant from a CCW standpoint. Obviously if you're open carrying in a belted holster it's what? VISIBLE. Brandishing would be if a person place their hand on their sidearm in a manner which could be viewed as a threatening act.

So you're saying that I'm breaking the law right now as I type this because a loaded .45 is in my nightstand and my home is <1000' from a school? BS

FreedomIsNotFree
11-11-2008, 1:29 AM
Check again bro. School's regardless of their locale to residences have California mandated legislation stating that a person CANNOT have a loaded firearm within 1,000 feet of a public education school.

We just REcovered this topic in a POST refresher course I recently took.


As for the brandishing comment......I simply meant from a CCW standpoint. Obviously if you're open carrying in a belted holster it's what? VISIBLE. Brandishing would be if a person place their hand on their sidearm in a manner which could be viewed as a threatening act.

Do you understand your position, basically, is that CA law trumps the personal ownership of a firearm that is capable, ie loaded, of defending the person? I would hope you realize the ridiculousness of this upon further examination.

We just REcovered this topic in a POST refresher course I recently took.

I'd like to think you simply misunderstood what was discussed rather than POST training their officers in conflict of the law.


As for the brandishing comment......I simply meant from a CCW standpoint. Obviously if you're open carrying in a belted holster it's what? VISIBLE. Brandishing would be if a person place their hand on their sidearm in a manner which could be viewed as a threatening act

If I'm on my private property, or with approval on anothers property with permission, I can carry my gun any way I choose. Concealed, partially concealed or completely in the open.

Initially you said simply allowing your sidearm to be seen by the public, even though you are on private property, is grounds for a brandishing charge. Now, you are changing the circumstances. I would agree that handling your sidearm in a threatening manner could be construed to be "brandishing", but those were not the facts we were initially discussing.

wrs916
11-11-2008, 1:50 AM
So you're saying that I'm breaking the law right now as I type this because a loaded .45 is in my nightstand and my home is <1000' from a school? BS


You are correct and I was wrong. Personal properties obviously in many circumstances are well within 1,000 feet away from public education schools. It IS legal to defend one's self on their own property so the first law is essentially trumped by the second.

I was wrong. I appologize.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-11-2008, 2:02 AM
Lets also remember that the Constitutionality of the School Zone laws as they are applied to firearms is on shaky ground to say the least.

glockman19
11-11-2008, 8:37 AM
I understand your intention of giving advice that will help someone stay out of trouble, but much of what you have said is simply inaccurate.

A person does NOT need written expressed permission to conceal carry on anothers private property...they simply need permission, either verbal or written. Sure, written permission would CYA, but its not required by law.

You can either open or concealed carry on private property. Simply open carrying a handgun is not grounds for a brandishing charge.


All Correct. However even on private property you may be illegal if carrying in a "common public area" I own apartment buildings. eventhough I can carry concealed on my property & business I am technically in teh gray area when outside a rental unit or any ungated area that is a "common public area". Ther is also an elementry school across the street.

CalCop
11-11-2008, 9:22 AM
Depending upon where you live (city wise) you need to keep a weapon completely concealed (if weapon becomes visible even on private property a passerby can call the authorities and report you for a PC 417 (Brandishing a weapon)I see that you have changed your position somewhat since you posted this...but here is some info for us to consider:
Penal Code 417. (a)(2) “Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable.”

Conclusions drawn from California Law:
- Californians have the inalienable right to defend life and liberty, and property. (CA Constitution I, 1)
- Any necessary force may be used to protect from wrongful injury. (Civil Code 50) [Drawing or exhibiting your firearm may be what is necessary]
- It is lawful to draw and exhibit a firearm in a threatening manner for self-defense. (PC 417)
- It is lawful to draw or exhibit a firearm for other than self-defense, as long as the exhibition is done in a non-threatening manner. (PC 417) [Example: just showing the bad guy your weapon may be all it takes to deter him]
- Even homicide is justifiable to stop the attempted or intended violent commission of a felony. (PC 197, 1&2)
- Even homicide is justifiable to stop an aggressor’s attempt to inflict great bodily injury. (PC 197, 1)
- Even homicide is justifiable when defending from an imminent danger of a plan to do some great bodily injury. (PC 197, 3)
- Even homicide is justifiable to lawfully apprehend a person for any violent felony committed. (PC 197, 4)
- For these homicides to be justifiable, the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person. (PC 198)
- A firearm may be used to effect a citizen’s arrest for a felony. (PC 197,4 and 837)
- Sufficient resistance may be made by any person to prevent an offense against any other person about to be injured. (PC 693, 694) [Showing your firearm may be the resistance needed to prevent an injury which is about to happen]

Webster’s dictionary definition of “Brandishing:”
“to wave, shake, or exhibit in a menacing, challenging, or exultant way”
[Merely showing your firearm does NOT constitute brandishing.]


Final conclusion:
A California citizen has the right to lawfully defend against, resist, or prevent injury to himself or his property.
Exhibiting or drawing your weapon can be the reasonable force used to stop the escalation of force against yourself (or others), or to stop an injury which is about to take place. A California citizen also has the right to use a firearm to make a citizen’s arrest for a crime committed in his presence.

Ironchef
11-11-2008, 9:29 AM
Lets also remember that the Constitutionality of the School Zone laws as they are applied to firearms is on shaky ground to say the least.

Good point..the "shaky" part. If I'm next door to a school, and there is 245 going on outside my home on the street (public property within 20' of the school), and I intervene with a gun to eliminate the threat of bodily harm or death on the victim in the street (which is ok via 12031 exemption), I would bet that the 626.9 would likewise be voidedtrumped. Or at least if argued properly in a courtroom, I bet the jury would see the use of force (or just the lawful brandishing) as being within the law.

CalCop
11-11-2008, 9:31 AM
I'd like to think you simply misunderstood what was discussed rather than POST training their officers in conflict of the law.I'd like to think so to...but I know better. Although most POST trainers have their stuff together, a few do not. I used to be assigned to the academy for my previous agency. I had heated arguments with another instructor who misunderstood the law, and was passing it on to cadets. This one instructor encouraged cadets NOT to carry off-duty, telling them it was not worth it. He gave a scenario where a road rager got out of his car at an intersection and began to bang on your driver's window, yelling, "I'm gonna kill you, MFer!!" He said if you merely showed this guy your holstered weapon, you would lose your job and go to jail for brandishing. I told this instructor to stop teaching his nonsense...a cop or a CCW holder has the right to use his weapon in a reasonable manner to defend himself from attacks or threatened attacks.

CalCop
11-11-2008, 9:49 AM
If I'm next door to a school, and there is 245 going on outside my home on the street (public property within 20' of the school), and I intervene with a gun to eliminate the threat of bodily harm or death on the victim in the street (which is ok via 12032 exemption), I would bet that the 626.9 would likewise be voidedtrumped. Or at least if argued properly in a courtroom, I bet the jury would see the use of force (or just the lawful brandishing) as being within the law.I agree. I have heard of a few cases of law abiding citizens violating the gun-free school zone law to subdue an active shooter. Those who violated the law to save others were not even charged. The Appalachian School of Law shooting on January 16, 2002 is one example.

bubbagump
11-11-2008, 10:18 AM
All Correct. However even on private property you may be illegal if carrying in a "common public area" I own apartment buildings. eventhough I can carry concealed on my property & business I am technically in teh gray area when outside a rental unit or any ungated area that is a "common public area". Ther is also an elementry school across the street.

Would this also apply to the owner of a motel. Say for instance the owner cleans out the rooms every night while carrying concealed? Would this be considered illegal, or is it a huge gray area?

MikeH1
11-11-2008, 11:10 AM
Check again bro. School's regardless of their locale to residences have California mandated legislation stating that a person CANNOT have a loaded firearm within 1,000 feet of a public education school.

I live next to an elementary school. Does that mean that I am not able to defend myself?

No, private property is exempted from the 1000 foot rule.

rayra
11-11-2008, 12:06 PM
I agree. I have heard of a few cases of law abiding citizens violating the gun-free school zone law to subdue an active shooter. Those who violated the law to save others were not even charged. The Appalachian School of Law shooting on January 16, 2002 is one example.

Again, not even close. the 'gun free school zone law' restrictions apply only to elementary and secondary schools, NOT to colleges / post-high school schools. Many states have no restrictions about carrying arms / weapons on college campii. It is the Liberal-run colleges that enforce their hoplophobia on their paying students.
The Appalachian School of Law shooter was engaged by three people, all of whom were off duty law enforcement officers, two of which had to retrieve their firearms from their vehicles because they'd complied with the school's anti-gun policies about firearms on campus. Those two showed up after the third had already wrestled the shooter to the ground.

Splinter
11-11-2008, 12:24 PM
In california I do not know of a single college that permits weapons on campus in any way, shape, or form. Not even locked in a car in the schools parking lot. They go so far as stating LE not being allowed to carry unless in uniform. I even heard of a guy getting kicked out of school for cleaning his nails with a pocket knife while in class. Im pretty sure most other states are the same, especially after the school shootings. Not that it has ever prevented anything.

CalCop
11-11-2008, 12:26 PM
Again, not even close. the 'gun free school zone law' restrictions apply only to elementary and secondary schools, NOT to colleges / post-high school schools.I could've done without the "not even close" statement, thanks. And what do you mean by "Again." And, unless I'm misreading this, it appears you are the one who is not even close?:

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or
buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research,
or administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

leelaw
11-11-2008, 12:39 PM
In california I do not know of a single college that permits weapons on campus in any way, shape, or form. Not even locked in a car in the schools parking lot. They go so far as stating LE not being allowed to carry unless in uniform. I even heard of a guy getting kicked out of school for cleaning his nails with a pocket knife while in class. Im pretty sure most other states are the same, especially after the school shootings. Not that it has ever prevented anything.

Well, here is just one example I found that contradicts the above.

http://www.4cd.net/policies_procedures/BOARD/POL-PROC/BP2050.pdf

Firearms may be carried by those authorized by the President, or Law Enforcement officials. No mention of "in the capacity of their duties" or "while in uniform" etc.

Edged weapons may be carried, with size restrictions, by anybody.

California law permits those with CCWs to carry on UC, CSU, and community college campuses, as long as the districts don't set further restrictions.

GuyW
11-11-2008, 1:34 PM
EXCELLENT post. I wish we had more on CalGuns like this one...


I see that you have changed your position somewhat since you posted this...but here is some info for us to consider:
Penal Code 417. (a)(2) “Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable.”

Conclusions drawn from California Law:
- Californians have the inalienable right to defend life and liberty, and property. (CA Constitution I, 1)
- Any necessary force may be used to protect from wrongful injury. (Civil Code 50) [Drawing or exhibiting your firearm may be what is necessary]
- It is lawful to draw and exhibit a firearm in a threatening manner for self-defense. (PC 417)
- It is lawful to draw or exhibit a firearm for other than self-defense, as long as the exhibition is done in a non-threatening manner. (PC 417) [Example: just showing the bad guy your weapon may be all it takes to deter him]
- Even homicide is justifiable to stop the attempted or intended violent commission of a felony. (PC 197, 1&2)
- Even homicide is justifiable to stop an aggressor’s attempt to inflict great bodily injury. (PC 197, 1)
- Even homicide is justifiable when defending from an imminent danger of a plan to do some great bodily injury. (PC 197, 3)
- Even homicide is justifiable to lawfully apprehend a person for any violent felony committed. (PC 197, 4)
- For these homicides to be justifiable, the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person. (PC 198)
- A firearm may be used to effect a citizen’s arrest for a felony. (PC 197,4 and 837)
- Sufficient resistance may be made by any person to prevent an offense against any other person about to be injured. (PC 693, 694) [Showing your firearm may be the resistance needed to prevent an injury which is about to happen]

Webster’s dictionary definition of “Brandishing:”
“to wave, shake, or exhibit in a menacing, challenging, or exultant way”
[Merely showing your firearm does NOT constitute brandishing.]


Final conclusion:
A California citizen has the right to lawfully defend against, resist, or prevent injury to himself or his property.
Exhibiting or drawing your weapon can be the reasonable force used to stop the escalation of force against yourself (or others), or to stop an injury which is about to take place. A California citizen also has the right to use a firearm to make a citizen’s arrest for a crime committed in his presence.

GuyW
11-11-2008, 1:39 PM
It is commercial real estate, a shopping center.

And yes I would keep it completely concealed.

Don't just take anybody's word here on this. Read Penal Codes 12031, 12050 and others, at a minimum. Read, "How to Own a Gun and Stay out of Jail". IMHO You ought to pay an attorney to CYA.

IIRC, there is a CA Supreme Ct case called "Pruneyard" that states that shopping centers are not private property as far as public protest activities are concerned. Coupled with other case law (do a search here), IMHO there is no way you can carry a loaded concealed handgun on most of your Dad's property.

Yes, CA sucks...
.

-hanko
11-11-2008, 2:43 PM
EXCELLENT post. I wish we had more on CalGuns like this one...
Agreed.

I also wish no one would post what they think are legal opinions unless they've passed the CA bar & practice law. A quarter of the answers in threads like this are pulled out of the poster's arse, and half of the posts try to correct the wrong posts;).

-hanko

Librarian
11-11-2008, 2:55 PM
Would this also apply to the owner of a motel. Say for instance the owner cleans out the rooms every night while carrying concealed? Would this be considered illegal, or is it a huge gray area?
Yes, it probably would be considered illegal if ever it came to an arrest. The problem seems to be with the definition of 'private' being blurred by needed access to the business property by the public.

I would guess -- and this is only a GUESS, but seems consistent with my current reading -- that the current practical distinction is whether the entire property can be closed off from public access. In your example of a motel, it's legal for guests who have rented a room to carry within their rooms; however, the typical motel has access directly out to the porch or sidewalk bordering a parking lot, and that lot is not usually gated or otherwise restricted access. That condition seems to get interpreted as making those areas 'public'.

Best advice is to find a lawyer who is informed on these things and pay for an opinion.

toolman9000
11-11-2008, 4:02 PM
+1 to GuyW, he is right. About the only place you can legally CCW is on the roof and in a vacant unit.

The parking lot and any front sidewalks are a no go and inside your tenants place of business is also a no go unless you have their permission.

Retail commercial property is tricky to CCW when you own the property, I am in the same boat so I have done the research so I am very legal.

The only time I do CCW in the parking lot is if it is 3 or 4am and I am blocking off the parking lot for maintenance - I only do this because #1 I am alone and it's dark and a very easy target and I have reason to believe I could be in danger. But later in the day when business are open and the general public is in circulation I do not ever CCW in the parking lot or any "public" areas including by the dumpsters.

I sometimes carry on the roof early in the morning since there is a 5 foot parapet and I am totally hidden from view on the flat roof, any yahoo could climb my ladder and mess with me, yelling would not help up there.

If working on a vacant unit I usually carry because it seems like there is always a lonely toothless dimwit who walks in with questions, or a little gang banger who wants me to buy them alcohol from the liquor store. I have the open door blocked with orange cones but they still walk in like I am selling lottery tickets.

hope that helps,
toolman9000


Don't just take anybody's word here on this. Read Penal Codes 12031, 12050 and others, at a minimum. Read, "How to Own a Gun and Stay out of Jail". IMHO You ought to pay an attorney to CYA.

IIRC, there is a CA Supreme Ct case called "Pruneyard" that states that shopping centers are not private property as far as public protest activities are concerned. Coupled with other case law (do a search here), IMHO there is no way you can carry a loaded concealed handgun on most of your Dad's property.

Yes, CA sucks...
.

bubbagump
11-11-2008, 4:38 PM
Yes, it probably would be considered illegal if ever it came to an arrest. The problem seems to be with the definition of 'private' being blurred by needed access to the business property by the public.

I would guess -- and this is only a GUESS, but seems consistent with my current reading -- that the current practical distinction is whether the entire property can be closed off from public access. In your example of a motel, it's legal for guests who have rented a room to carry within their rooms; however, the typical motel has access directly out to the porch or sidewalk bordering a parking lot, and that lot is not usually gated or otherwise restricted access. That condition seems to get interpreted as making those areas 'public'.

Best advice is to find a lawyer who is informed on these things and pay for an opinion.

Thank you very much!