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BigBamBoo
11-09-2008, 2:56 PM
................

The SoCal Gunner
11-09-2008, 4:16 PM
Doesn't really say the 4 year old shot himself. Report suggests that there could be more to it like the other child might have been involved?

Going to be a hard time ahead for this family.

Liberty1
11-09-2008, 5:59 PM
Yes very very sad. If it's not on my hip, it's in a quick access safe.

But I've also taken my kids, starting at 4-5, to shoot a .22 and watch me shoot my pistols. They are allowed to handle my guns at any time at home. All they have to do is ask and I will unload one for them to see and handle ANY TIME.

I want them to be familiar with my guns and not to think of them as taboo items to be acquired and played with when my back is turned.

I also constantly tell them that if they ever find a gun anywhere they need to leave it alone and tell an adult.

redcliff
11-09-2008, 9:38 PM
What greater punishment for a mistake in judgement is there than the loss of one's child?

My understanding is that the 4 year old boy climbed up to the top shelf of a closet and removed the handgun from a box. I assume it was loaded, but I don't know for sure.

I wouldnt of kept a firearm loaded in a house with small children, unless in a locked safe/security container, but it doesn't seem like a case of gross negligence. More like a tragic accident that could of been prevented.

I've worked with the mother of the officer for over twenty years, and the whole family is devastated. I see no justice in sending the grieving father, who wasn't even home at the time to jail.

NiteQwill
11-09-2008, 10:57 PM
What greater punishment for a mistake in judgement is there than the loss of one's child?

My understanding is that the 4 year old boy climbed up to the top shelf of a closet and removed the handgun from a box. I assume it was loaded, but I don't know for sure.

I wouldnt of kept a firearm loaded in a house with small children, unless in a locked safe/security container, but it doesn't seem like a case of gross negligence. More like a tragic accident that could of been prevented.

I've worked with the mother of the officer for over twenty years, and the whole family is devastated. I see no justice in sending the grieving father, who wasn't even home at the time to jail.
+1

Same goes for parents who inadvertently run their child over in the driveway, their punishment was the accident itself. Sending them to jail teaches them nothing.

Adonlude
11-10-2008, 12:49 AM
+1

Same goes for parents who inadvertently run their child over in the driveway, their punishment was the accident itself. Sending them to jail teaches them nothing.
I think the punishment must be in place to ensure that the accidents are really accidents. If these people are let off the hook then that opens the door for crazies to off their kids and get away with it through convincing grieving.

forgiven
11-10-2008, 12:53 AM
Yes very very sad. If it's not on my hip, it's in a quick access safe.

But I've also taken my kids, starting at 4-5, to shoot a .22 and watch me shoot my pistols. They are allowed to handle my guns at any time at home. All they have to do is ask and I will unload one for them to see and handle ANY TIME.

I want them to be familiar with my guns and not to think of them as a taboo items to be acquired and played with when my back is turned.

I also constantly tell them that if they ever find a gun anywhere they need to leave it alone and tell an adult.:iagree:

dreyna14
11-10-2008, 1:01 AM
I wonder if the handgun was on the "safe" list. If it wasn't then this is a clear indication that LEO's aren't somehow more special than normal citizens and if we can't have certain handguns, neither should they.

Anyways, I fully agree with Liberty1 in how to raise kids with guns. I was allowed to handle guns at the age of 9 or 10 and taught how to properly handle them. I was also taught that if I touched one without my parents' permission, I'd get the absolute living s*** kicked out of me.

r0ckingc0wb0y
11-10-2008, 1:52 AM
Sometimes "WE" adult always forget one thing: "SAFETY FIRST"

eta34
11-10-2008, 7:28 AM
Sad day....but hope he (the officer) gets treated the same way as if it were you or I who left a gun out where a four yo could get to it.

Not much in the way of the news reporting it...here is the story:

http://www.redding.com/news/2008/nov/06/4-year-old-boy-shot-shasta-lake-home/

Please elaborate how "you or I" would get treated in the same situation. I have been involved in two incidents where a child was killed in situations like this. In both cases, neither adult was charged criminally. In my opinion, it was appropriate not to charge them.

Are you implying that this officer should get different treatment than "you or I?"

Spyder
11-10-2008, 8:05 AM
The same thing happened not too awful long ago here in Yuba City...sometime in the last year, if I recall correctly.

BigBamBoo
11-10-2008, 8:34 AM
.............

MudCamper
11-10-2008, 8:45 AM
My understanding is that the 4 year old boy climbed up to the top shelf of a closet and removed the handgun from a box. I assume it was loaded, but I don't know for sure.

I wouldnt of kept a firearm loaded in a house with small children, unless in a locked safe/security container, but it doesn't seem like a case of gross negligence. More like a tragic accident that could of been prevented.

I disagree. It is negligence. Yes, very sad and tragic, but still negligence. If you have a 4 year old, you should know that they will climb anything, open anything, bypass anything, but a steel lock. 4 year old boys are like super-intelligent super-curious monkeys. Guns in households with kids should either be under an adults immediate control, or locked in a gun safe. Period.

Stockton
11-10-2008, 8:56 AM
How tragic this is. Oh bejesus I couldn't imagine the pain inside that father feels. As a father myself and growing up with guns around the house, I can say one...don't underestimate your children's ability/curiosity of their surroundings. Two... knowing,acceptance,and understanding of guns in the house(in my house) is a must. There is no reason for unanswered questions or items.

redcliff
11-10-2008, 10:02 AM
I disagree. It is negligence. Yes, very sad and tragic, but still negligence. If you have a 4 year old, you should know that they will climb anything, open anything, bypass anything, but a steel lock. 4 year old boys are like super-intelligent super-curious monkeys. Guns in households with kids should either be under an adults immediate control, or locked in a gun safe. Period.

I agree it was negligence, I just don't feel it was "gross negligence" which has a different connotation and probably should be used as the threshhold for filing charges. Leaving a loaded pistol exposed on a table is somewhat different than hiding it in a box in the top of the master bedroom closet.

JBird33
11-10-2008, 10:25 AM
He should be charged criminally. If cops are so super special that they get special gun rights that us mere "commoners" don't get, they should also be held to a higher standard of safety. Really sad to me that they aren't prosecuting this. FYI, I know some of the paramedics involved in this one and there wasn't another kid.

JDay
11-10-2008, 11:10 AM
Please elaborate how "you or I" would get treated in the same situation. I have been involved in two incidents where a child was killed in situations like this. In both cases, neither adult was charged criminally. In my opinion, it was appropriate not to charge them.

Are you implying that this officer should get different treatment than "you or I?"

Funny that you should say that because I just pulled this little gem off the Attorney Generals website.

Am I required by law to store my firearms where children cannot access them?
Yes. In most cases, if you keep any loaded firearm within any premise which is under your custody or control and know or reasonably should know that a child (person under 18 years of age) is likely to gain access to the firearm, you may be guilty of a felony if a child gains access to that firearm and thereby causes death or injury to any person unless the firearm was in a secure locked container or locked with a locking device that rendered it inoperable.

(PC Section 12035-12036)

According to the law he should be in jail right now with felony charges.

JDay
11-10-2008, 11:17 AM
I found an update. Only dated the 7th but it looks like charges may be filed.

Update on Accidental Shooting of Redding Police Officer's Son (http://www.khsltv.com/content/topstories/story.aspx?content_id=9d00ce6d-b78f-454e-b330-e39c2f2b06d7)

redcliff
11-10-2008, 11:20 AM
Funny that you should say that because I just pulled this little gem off the Attorney Generals website.



According to the law he should be in jail right now with felony charges.

Actually according to the law he (or whoever the owner of the handgun was, it may have been his wive's gun) can not be charged for 7 days, and it may be charged as a misdemeanor.

And I would hope no judge would set bail very high if it this happened to any of us.

While I know many people on this forum have negative experiences and viewpoints of L.E., I would rather see civillian/leo relationships raised to one of decency and respect rather than continually lowering expectations to the lowest common denominator of rogue cop/gang banger.

Meplat
11-10-2008, 11:22 AM
More children have probably died because a loaded gun was not available than because it was. It's a stupid law, leave the man alone.:(



I think the punishment must be in place to ensure that the accidents are really accidents. If these people are let off the hook then that opens the door for crazies to off their kids and get away with it through convincing grieving.

JDay
11-10-2008, 11:26 AM
Actually according to the law he (or whoever the owner of the handgun was, it may have been his wive's gun) can not be charged for 7 days, and it may be charged as a misdemeanor.

And I would hope no judge would set bail very high if it this happened to any of us.

While I know many people on this forum have negative experiences and viewpoints of L.E., I would rather see civillian/leo relationships raised to one of decency and respect rather than continually lowering expectations to the lowest common denominator of rogue cop/gang banger.

I was just pointing out to the other poster that in cases like this charges must be filed, to not do so would be putting someone above the law. Everyone has the right to their day in court.

gunrun45
11-10-2008, 11:28 AM
Leave the poor guy alone for christ's sake. This has torn his family apart inside.

It's not like he was a crack dealer who knowingly left his loaded handgun for his kid to play with.

Budd
11-10-2008, 11:37 AM
Some of our friends are friends of his - please keep the family in prayer.:(

Meplat
11-10-2008, 11:40 AM
As I said before, It's a stupid law. I also know that it is rarely if ever charged; which is probably due in large part to LEOs knowing it's stupid in most cases and letting it slide.

I cannot imagine the hell the guy is dealing with right now. We should save our envy, jealousy, and righteous indignation for more appropriate circumstances. If you are a person of faith, pray for this family, if not you might just express your sadness. Otherwise shut your pie hole.




Please elaborate how "you or I" would get treated in the same situation. I have been involved in two incidents where a child was killed in situations like this. In both cases, neither adult was charged criminally. In my opinion, it was appropriate not to charge them.

Are you implying that this officer should get different treatment than "you or I?"

nicki
11-10-2008, 11:42 AM
The death of a child will punish that officer more than any court could.

What is really sad is there will be those who will attempt to use this tragedy for "political gain'".

I can understand someone wanting to have a "loaded firearm" available just in case, but when you have children, you can't leave accessable "loaded firearms" around the house.

Kids are natural explorers and they find things. Anyone who is a parent knows, children always seem to find things you wish were hidden.

Children finding "Adult material or items" is embarassing, children finding loaded guns can result in accidental discharges, need I say more.

My kids did not find anything with me by the way.:D

Nicki

BigBamBoo
11-10-2008, 12:10 PM
..............

jb7706
11-10-2008, 12:30 PM
The man has alredy been handed a life sentence, his child is dead. I would probably hope for death if I were in that man's shoes, it would be the only thing that would ever put an end to the pain and guilt of losing my son(s.) I can't imagine the hell he is in right now.

How does charging him or anyone else in that situation fix anything? His kid didn't go on a shooting spree that killed others, I could see charges there. In this case loss of his kid is punishment enough.

Gnome
11-10-2008, 12:49 PM
Yes very very sad. If it's not on my hip, it's in a quick access safe.

But I've also taken my kids, starting at 4-5, to shoot a .22 and watch me shoot my pistols. They are allowed to handle my guns at any time at home. All they have to do is ask and I will unload one for them to see and handle ANY TIME.

I want them to be familiar with my guns and not to think of them as a taboo items to be acquired and played with when my back is turned.

I also constantly tell them that if they ever find a gun anywhere they need to leave it alone and tell an adult.

I remember several years ago, Dateline or 20/20 did a special on just this topic. They had a room rigged with hidden cameras. They had all kinds of toys for kids in the room. They also placed a single handgun in one of the drawers of a utility cabinet. The two children played, and explored the room. When one of them came across the gun, he paused, looked at the other child and picked it up. They were both playing with the gun just as if it were a toy. One child even went as far as to point the gun at the other child and mimic the sound of a gun firing "pew pew pew"

All the while, the reporter and parents of the children were watching. They were so sure that the children would leave the gun alone as always instructed. The parents were horrified.

It just goes to show, kids are naturally curious about their world. Even when we think we have taught them right, they'll do what they want when they think no one is looking.

This is why I keep all of my guns loaded, but not chambered. I know some disagree with this tactic, but it makes me feel a little safer.

Meplat
11-10-2008, 12:49 PM
I understand the double standard. Believe me It chaps me just as much as anyone. I just don't think it's good form to have a vent fest in this particular instance. It makes us all look bad.

I normally think there is too much "sensitivity" to LEO bashing on this list. I think we do one another a service both ways when there is free expression of attitudes and feelings and the reasons behind them. The LEO is a wiser man for having been exposed to the naked truth about how the public feels. And we individual members of the public are wiser for having a look from their side, without the badge and ticket book in between. I just don't think this is the best, kindest, or most useful time for it.

BTW, check out my thread on kids, guns & pitchforks.




Hmm...guess these folks do not fall under the "rarely ever charged" group?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/11/AR2007051102276.html

http://www.wbbm780.com/pages/2122258.php?

http://www.parentsbehavingbadly.com/2005/09/22/father-arrested-after-son-kills-self-with-unsecured-loaded-weapon/


http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/x195806005/State-Pollice-make-arrest-in-Jewett-City-child-shooting-case

I am not trying to bash LEO...have many friends who are LEO...and I am not trying to be cold towards what these parents are going through...again...have three kids of my own.

What I do have a problem with is how certain groups in our country can get away with things that the rest of us can't.

Just like one group saying no more guns to you serf's and common people.....many of you get all pissed about the anti gunnners who have CCW's,etc.....whats the difference in a case like this?

If YOUR kid shot himself with one of your guns in your house...at the LEAST your house would have been searched and ALL your guns would be taken by the police right then and there.

I feel for the family...but I don't feel for special treatment because he is a cop.

Peace,Stan

CA_Libertarian
11-10-2008, 1:20 PM
I wouldnt of kept a firearm loaded in a house with small children, unless in a locked safe/security container, but it doesn't seem like a case of gross negligence.

I would keep a loaded firearm in the house no matter what. If bad guys kick down your door you're still gonna need a loaded, accessible firearm. Unless you would throw one of the little ones at them and hope ankle-biting buys you time to locate/load your firearm?

What worse thing could there be than to watch someone hurt/kill your child while you sit tied up in the corner because you didn't have your home defense in proper order?

Now, there are ways to keep a loaded/accessible firearm while also keeping your children safe. The best way is keeping the firearm on your person or within arm's reach at all times.

Meplat
11-10-2008, 2:04 PM
Now, there are ways to keep a loaded/accessible firearm while also keeping your children safe. The best way is keeping the firearm on your person or within arm's reach at all times.

The best is to train your children. The world is full of guns, it's not just yours.;)

CA_Libertarian
11-10-2008, 11:09 PM
The best is to train your children. The world is full of guns, it's not just yours.;)

Of course, you make a very important point. You can't keep your children from experiencing life (no matter how hard some people try). I would much rather my children know and respect guns/gun safety before their first sleepover.