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X-NewYawker
11-07-2008, 8:56 PM
Every time people get sacred SOMEONE suggests burying your guns and saying there were stolen. In the 1980s there was even a market for these plastic tubes just so you can do that.

In case you've been asleep, last time I was out in the desert part of the training at Fort irwin includes this>

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/MEtalDEtectors.jpg

stphnman20
11-07-2008, 8:59 PM
I aint burying nothing!

Patriot
11-07-2008, 9:01 PM
Every time people get sacred SOMEONE suggests burying your guns and saying there were stolen. In the 1980s there was even a market for these plastic tubes just so you can do that.

In case you've been asleep, last time I was out in the desert part of the training at Fort irwin includes this>

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/MEtalDEtectors.jpg

Sacred? :p

Also, I don't think most who make those comments are talking about burying guns in their backyard or flower gardens... :TFH:

X-NewYawker
11-07-2008, 9:05 PM
Sacred? :p

Also, I don't think most who make those comments are talking about burying guns in their backyard or flower gardens... :TFH:

Scared.

And yeah,. back during the Survivalist craze they were all headed to the woods. "Don't forget which tree we buried our guns under!"

383green
11-07-2008, 9:14 PM
It makes it a bit harder for "that" to find them if you also bury a random scattering of rebar, nails, etc. such that every square inch of land makes "that" scream with ferrous excitement. ;)

On the other hand, good luck ever finding your own buried guns in that case! :shock:

AK4me
11-07-2008, 9:14 PM
Scared.

And yeah,. back during the Survivalist craze they were all headed to the woods. "Don't forget which tree we buried our guns under!"

We have GPS now.

Seesm
11-07-2008, 9:14 PM
no bury for me...

CitaDeL
11-07-2008, 9:22 PM
Its been said before:

When its time to bury your guns, its time you ought to be digging them up.

Meplat
11-07-2008, 11:27 PM
That the government can turn off any time it wants. Learn to do it the old fashioned way:43:


We have GPS now.

M. Sage
11-08-2008, 1:54 AM
That the government can turn off any time it wants. Learn to do it the old fashioned way:43:

Compass + landmarks = win!

JDay
11-08-2008, 6:06 AM
Every time people get sacred SOMEONE suggests burying your guns and saying there were stolen. In the 1980s there was even a market for these plastic tubes just so you can do that.

In case you've been asleep, last time I was out in the desert part of the training at Fort irwin includes this>

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/MEtalDEtectors.jpg

Thats why you put them in the ground, standing up and next to a large sewer line. Do you really want to dig up a sewage line?

JDay
11-08-2008, 6:08 AM
That the government can turn off any time it wants. Learn to do it the old fashioned way:43:

The new GPS sats don't have the selective capability that the original system had, if it gets shutoff for us it gets shutoff for the government too. We can thank Clinton for this gift =)

AJAX22
11-08-2008, 6:18 AM
A few sacks of metal shavings from a lathe or fourty pounds of misc scrap can do wonders to screw those things up.... it can make it look like you burried a tank.

I don't want to get into specifics, but there are alot of things that you can dig under which if detected will not raise any eyebrows. its all about misdirection.


oh and if you go deep enough, those metal detectors are worthless ;)

Kokopelli
11-08-2008, 6:29 AM
When I first got my metal detector, I tested it in my back yard. There was a load of crap buried by the contractors from when my house was build. Aluminum duct tape, nails, beer cans.

I don't foresee government agents checking every square inch of America looking for my guns lost in that boating accident. ;)

X-NewYawker
11-08-2008, 8:09 AM
Its been said before:

When its time to bury your guns, its time you ought to be digging them up.

+1 on that!

Monkeybits
11-08-2008, 8:11 AM
The point made earlier stands, I think: When it's time to start thinking about burying your guns, it's actually time to be digging them up.

The founders thought we'd have a revolution every few decades, right? I'm glad the system is stable, and have no desire for any unpleasantness, but suspect they'd be wondering about now: "What's taking you so long?"

Naturally, you've all followed Arnold's proposal to raise taxes, er, I mean, "Increase revenues." In tough economic times, California families haven't received a revenue increase. Why should the government? Anybody have some tea and a harbor?

AJAX22
11-08-2008, 8:19 AM
Don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

in principle yes, you should be up in arms already (should have started back in 34)

however, you need to have options, backups, fallback positions incase they come for your guns when you are not there.

Unregistered undocumented firearms packed with ammo and carefully hidden.

These are not primary arms, these are a backup incase the unforseen happens.

Unless you carry your main battle rifle, your entire ammo stash, and your primary pistol with you at all times there is a very good chance you can be surprised in such a manner that you won't have the oportunity to go down in a blaze of glory.

If a guy has a gun to the back of your head with 20 buddies in swat gear outside your door, I'm sorry to say this but you're going to get your guns taken away. (just look at the guys who open there safe's for the police and loose EVERYTHING because the officer was misinformed about the technicality of the law... how long did Matt get his guns taken away for? 2 years wasn't it? and he was INNOCENT of all charges)

now if you have backups buried then you will have the means to take action once they are gone.

think in terms of logistics.

Be prepared, don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

Monkeybits
11-08-2008, 8:31 AM
All joking aside, I don't think this is a step they'd take in the United States quite yet. We like our comfort, and most of us aren't willing to do anything to jeopardize it in any serious manner.

If actual gun confiscation were attempted on a large scale, there are people not quite as stable as this group who actually would try violent revolution. Nobody wants that, especially given that much of the military would side with the citizenry.

I suspect we're looking at brutal restrictions nationwide similar to what we endure in California, but for the time being our rights are still covered by DC v. Heller. If the balance of the Supreme Court changes, then we might have a problem.

AJAX22
11-08-2008, 8:36 AM
The time to prepare is now, not soon, or after you have proof positive that they are coming for you.

You need to prepare NOW because you still have the ability to do so.

Remember the Boyscout motto "Be Prepared"

Never forget.

TkS2BRoCd2I

It takes time for the grass to grow back over the holes you dig...

If they pass a law today requiring you to turn your guns in a week from now.... don't you think they'll be talking to neighbors about any suspicious digging that has been going on?

You need to prepare NOW

not tomorrow,

not a week from now,

not after they pass the bad law

NOW

if you had prepared in 1933, you could have tommy guns packed in cosmoline with no paper trail.

If you had prepared in 1967 you could have military surplus restored dewatt guns and silencers stashed with no record of them existing.

If you had prepared in 1981 you could have Drop in Auto Sears, lightning links, and silencer parts kits purchased for cash at any gun show along with paperless open bolt semi auto pistols

If you had prepared in 1990 you could have unregistered handguns stashed with no record of them traceable to you

If you prepare TODAY you can have a homemade AR15 rifle, magazine rebuild kits, ammunition, homemade pistols etc etc etc. and C&R guns with no paperwork

If you prepare TOMORROW you might not be able to have semi auto's without registration paperwork pointing at you, or 'high powered sniper rifles' without special permitting, or 'destructive devices' like shotguns with open choke barrels and a capacity more than the legal hunting limit (3).

Next step (if they close the 'gun show loophole' and the homeade pistol 'loophole' and the high cap magazine parts 'loophole' and the ammunition 'loophole') will probably be cartridge converted black powder pistols, and muskets...

And the next step will be to 'administratively redefine' antique guns to close the pre 1898 'loophole' so you can't get webly's and broomhandles and antique nagants.... and make it so that reproduction cap and ball guns are not exempted from the definition of firearm....

Then you're left with original civil war muzzle loaders and percussion muskets.

until they regulate the 'high explosive' in percussion caps (yes it IS high explosive) so you can't get them... at which time you may have to switch them over to flintlock or matchlock guns...

But since we're pretty much F'ed Wayyyyyy before that point, I would like to suggest once again that you prepare NOW.

I hope to g*d we never get to that point, but I'm not so naive as to think that we are ever more than a few months away from some tragic opportunity for the gun banners to take advantage of a bus load of orphans getting shot up by some wacko.

Don't assume that we will always win on the legal front... in order to keep our rights we have to win EVERY time, our opponents only have to win ONCE.

Prepare NOW because you still can.

/rant

JDay
11-08-2008, 9:34 AM
All joking aside, I don't think this is a step they'd take in the United States quite yet. We like our comfort, and most of us aren't willing to do anything to jeopardize it in any serious manner.

If actual gun confiscation were attempted on a large scale, there are people not quite as stable as this group who actually would try violent revolution. Nobody wants that, especially given that much of the military would side with the citizenry.

I suspect we're looking at brutal restrictions nationwide similar to what we endure in California, but for the time being our rights are still covered by DC v. Heller. If the balance of the Supreme Court changes, then we might have a problem.

You forget that most of the military is overseas.

JDay
11-08-2008, 9:53 AM
The time to prepare is now, not soon, or after you have proof positive that they are coming for you.

You need to prepare NOW because you still have the ability to do so.

Remember the Boyscout motto "Be Prepared"

Never forget.

TkS2BRoCd2I

It takes time for the grass to grow back over the holes you dig...

If they pass a law today requiring you to turn your guns in a week from now.... don't you think they'll be talking to neighbors about any suspicious digging that has been going on?

You need to prepare NOW

not tomorrow,

not a week from now,

not after they pass the bad law

NOW

if you had prepared in 1933, you could have tommy guns packed in cosmoline with no paper trail.

If you had prepared in 1967 you could have military surplus restored dewatt guns and silencers stashed with no record of them existing.

If you had prepared in 1981 you could have Drop in Auto Sears, lightning links, and silencer parts kits purchased for cash at any gun show along with paperless open bolt semi auto pistols

If you had prepared in 1990 you could have unregistered handguns stashed with no record of them traceable to you

If you prepare TODAY you can have a homemade AR15 rifle, magazine rebuild kits, ammunition, homemade pistols etc etc etc. and C&R guns with no paperwork

If you prepare TOMORROW you might not be able to have semi auto's without registration paperwork pointing at you, or 'high powered sniper rifles' without special permitting, or 'destructive devices' like shotguns with open choke barrels and a capacity more than the legal hunting limit (3).

Next step (if they close the 'gun show loophole' and the homeade pistol 'loophole' and the high cap magazine parts 'loophole' and the ammunition 'loophole') will probably be cartridge converted black powder pistols, and muskets...

And the next step will be to 'administratively redefine' antique guns to close the pre 1898 'loophole' so you can't get webly's and broomhandles and antique nagants.... and make it so that reproduction cap and ball guns are not exempted from the definition of firearm....

Then you're left with original civil war muzzle loaders and percussion muskets.

until they regulate the 'high explosive' in percussion caps (yes it IS high explosive) so you can't get them... at which time you may have to switch them over to flintlock or matchlock guns...

But since we're pretty much F'ed Wayyyyyy before that point, I would like to suggest once again that you prepare NOW.

I hope to g*d we never get to that point, but I'm not so naive as to think that we are ever more than a few months away from some tragic opportunity for the gun banners to take advantage of a bus load of orphans getting shot up by some wacko.

Don't assume that we will always win on the legal front... in order to keep our rights we have to win EVERY time, our opponents only have to win ONCE.

Prepare NOW because you still can.

/rant

+1

And I wish ABC would have played that video last night. Its a real wakeup call.

jamesob
11-08-2008, 10:09 AM
here is an idea for those that wish to bury your toys. what you do is find a main water line ( steel of course ) pack your stuff with grease and bury it directly under your water main. when metal detectors hits on the waterline thats what they will think it is because it would be the water line.:43:

56Chevy
11-08-2008, 10:23 PM
All joking aside, I don't think this is a step they'd take in the United States quite yet. We like our comfort, and most of us aren't willing to do anything to jeopardize it in any serious manner.

If actual gun confiscation were attempted on a large scale, there are people not quite as stable as this group who actually would try violent revolution. Nobody wants that, especially given that much of the military would side with the citizenry.

I suspect we're looking at brutal restrictions nationwide similar to what we endure in California, but for the time being our rights are still covered by DC v. Heller. If the balance of the Supreme Court changes, then we might have a problem.
I wonder who would be doing the actual seizing of the guns?

sorensen440
11-08-2008, 10:27 PM
I could instruct you how to efficiently bury your guns but I wouldn't want to give away my secrets

sorensen440
11-08-2008, 10:27 PM
I wonder who would be doing the actual seizing of the guns?

Me if I see you bury it :)

dasmi
11-08-2008, 10:29 PM
If you are burying your guns, the time to use them is long past.

Gator Monroe
11-08-2008, 10:32 PM
The nice thing about a 4000 sq. ft. two story home is potential for false walls & hidden rooms !

pullnshoot25
11-09-2008, 2:47 AM
I just watched 3 of the 10min in that video and it gave me the freaking chills.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-09-2008, 5:05 AM
I wonder who would be doing the actual seizing of the guns?


Obama's soon-to-come National Civilian Security Force.

The Raisuli

elsolo
11-09-2008, 7:29 AM
Bury next to a sewer or water line?

They never dig near those!

savageevo
11-09-2008, 8:15 AM
how deep do you have to dig so the detectors can not detect it?

Matt C
11-09-2008, 8:51 AM
Unless you carry your main battle rifle, your entire ammo stash, and your primary pistol with you at all times there is a very good chance you can be surprised in such a manner that you won't have the oportunity to go down in a blaze of glory.

If a guy has a gun to the back of your head with 20 buddies in swat gear outside your door, I'm sorry to say this but you're going to get your guns taken away. (just look at the guys who open there safe's for the police and loose EVERYTHING because the officer was misinformed about the technicality of the law... how long did Matt get his guns taken away for? 2 years wasn't it? and he was INNOCENT of all charges).

Yup, and you can bet they waited until they were sure I was FAR from any guns before they tried to arrest me. Once I was able to get out I did not see my guns for well over a year, in fact I was lucky to get them back at all.

A324
11-09-2008, 8:55 AM
Deep enough that repeated blows to the head from a buttstock still won't jog your memory.

Full Clip
11-09-2008, 9:05 AM
We have GPS now.

No, you have GPS until the government turns it off.

emc002
11-09-2008, 9:19 AM
I wonder how long it'd take them to search 360 acres... Of course they all fell off the boat into the Delta...

Trendkill
11-09-2008, 9:22 AM
Seriously......if burying guns is a reasonable option......we are way too far up a @#$%-creek.....without a gun. If we wanted to get something done....we should do it.....

Gun owners are too silent...and secretive about their ownership.......if we were to march or protest en masse.....maybe this country would have a glimpse of what could potentially be an army the likes of which the world has never seen. I dont mean a violent march or protest....a peacefull one while anouncing full well we are tired of the 2A rights violations....and that we want protection of these rights once and for all written in stone.

Trendkill
11-09-2008, 9:25 AM
If our fore-fathers saw this thread......wow. Dig.....bury??

I dont know what verbage they would use back then.....but I'm pretty sure it would translate out to be "Girly-men".

Matt C
11-09-2008, 9:51 AM
If our fore-fathers saw this thread......wow. Dig.....bury??

I dont know what verbage they would use back then.....but I'm pretty sure it would translate out to be "Girly-men".

BS. When I was active duty Army I worked at a place called Ft. McNair in Washington DC. It was built as an arsenal following the War of Independence and contained significant stockpiles of arms and powder at that time.

During the War of 1812 it was overrun by the British and the garrison troops were either killed, captured, or forced to retreat north with what they could carry. Knowing that they might very well retake the post later on, they his what they could in the post's main well as the Redcoats came up the Potomac from burning the capitol. What followed (below in quotes) is great history, but the point is that the men of the time had no problems establishing caches of arms and ammo when it was tactically expedient.

About 47 British soldiers found the powder magazines they'd come to destroy empty. Someone threw a match into the well and "a tremendous explosion ensued," a doctor at the scene reported, "whereby the officers and about 30 of the men were killed and the rest most shockingly mangled."

hawk81
11-09-2008, 9:55 AM
If our fore-fathers saw this thread......wow. Dig.....bury??

I dont know what verbage they would use back then.....but I'm pretty sure it would translate out to be "Girly-men".

You are absolutely right.

Trendkill
11-09-2008, 10:06 AM
BS. When I was active duty Army I worked at a place called Ft. McNair in Washington DC. It was built as an arsenal following the War of Independence and contained significant stockpiles of arms and powder at that time.

During the War of 1812 it was overrun by the British and the garrison troops were either killed, captured, or forced to retreat north with what they could carry. Knowing that they might very well retake the post later on, they his what they could in the post's main well as the Redcoats came up the Potomac from burning the capitol. What followed (below in quotes) is great history, but the point is that the men of the time had no problems establishing caches of arms and ammo when it was tactically expedient.

I believe they were slightly more organized at that time.....and had purpose. Its one thing to bury your stuff during an actual time of war only to return and grab it to fight again.....compared to not standing up at all to give fight (protest) while simultaneously performing gun burials.

Meplat
11-09-2008, 10:07 AM
The same thing works for interior walls if you have decent sheetrock skills. However be aware that detectors can discriminate between steal and copper.


here is an idea for those that wish to bury your toys. what you do is find a main water line ( steel of course ) pack your stuff with grease and bury it directly under your water main. when metal detectors hits on the waterline thats what they will think it is because it would be the water line.:43:

Meplat
11-09-2008, 10:18 AM
But they can "scramble" it so that it's accuracy is useless to pinpoint anything. They have correction built into their equipment. You dont. You can subscribe to services that broadcast real time corrections based on known landmarks but it's expensive. ;)





The new GPS sats don't have the selective capability that the original system had, if it gets shutoff for us it gets shutoff for the government too. We can thank Clinton for this gift =)

Matt C
11-09-2008, 10:22 AM
I believe they were slightly more organized at that time.....and had purpose. Its one thing to bury your stuff during an actual time of war only to return and grab it to fight again.....compared to not standing up at all to give fight (protest) while simultaneously performing gun burials.

I think we are in a time of war. And of course you don't bury everything...

scobun
11-09-2008, 10:34 AM
I wonder what would happen if all the gun owners were to move to the most gun friendly state possible with some of the most god-awful terrain imaginable. It seems like a well armed, prepared and most importantly, determined, populace has always prevailed in past conflicts where their god given freedom is at stake. There is a reason Switzerland has been bypassed by the military juggernauts of Europe during WWI and WWII.

I sincerely hope that they leave gun bans up to the states to decide. If California wants to completely ban all firearms, I can and will move. If they decide to institute a federal ban, they've killed the country.

hoffmang
11-09-2008, 10:36 AM
I think we are in a time of war.

Obama Derangement Syndrome - alive on Calguns. It's the exact analog of Bush Derangment Syndrome.

We are not at war. We are fighting for gun rights and to keep certain socialist ideas out of the economy. However, the other party in our two party system screwed up and is now being punished. This too will pass.

-Gene

Meplat
11-09-2008, 10:39 AM
I vehemently deny I ever buried any guns or ammo in 1968, or 1984. I also deny ever having studied orienteering.

You don't need a secret arsenal. If you can't be effective with just about any decent firearm and a few hundred rounds you are not cut out to be a revelutanry and will probably be dead already any way. If not, you will be using the enemies guns and ammo.

One of the greatest move quotes of all time was uttered by Sam Elliot in "We Were Soldiers": "Sir, if it comes to where I need an M-16 ther'll be plenty of'um layin on the ground."





Don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

in principle yes, you should be up in arms already (should have started back in 34)

however, you need to have options, backups, fallback positions incase they come for your guns when you are not there.

Unregistered undocumented firearms packed with ammo and carefully hidden.

These are not primary arms, these are a backup incase the unforseen happens.

Unless you carry your main battle rifle, your entire ammo stash, and your primary pistol with you at all times there is a very good chance you can be surprised in such a manner that you won't have the oportunity to go down in a blaze of glory.

If a guy has a gun to the back of your head with 20 buddies in swat gear outside your door, I'm sorry to say this but you're going to get your guns taken away. (just look at the guys who open there safe's for the police and loose EVERYTHING because the officer was misinformed about the technicality of the law... how long did Matt get his guns taken away for? 2 years wasn't it? and he was INNOCENT of all charges)

now if you have backups buried then you will have the means to take action once they are gone.

think in terms of logistics.

Be prepared, don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

Matt C
11-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Obama Derangement Syndrome - alive on Calguns. It's the exact analog of Bush Derangment Syndrome.


First off Bush laid the ground work for tyranny by sucking more power into the Executive than any president in history. He was far to unpopular to do anything truly evil with it, but he sure set it up for the next guy to try. Bush is/was the worst president we have ever hand when it comes to preserving our rights. And now we have Obama... Who are you to call people "deranged" anyway?


We are not at war. We are fighting for gun rights and to keep certain socialist ideas out of the economy. However, the other party in our two party system screwed up and is now being punished.

The party system is a joke. From my other thread- The political game is a distraction, a blindfold. The GOP takes away the 4th amendment, and if you don't like it you can vote in the Democrats next term, and they will take the 2nd. 4/8 years later you can vote again and they will take something else. Meanwhile half the people cheer that they half won and the other have figure they will be ok if they can wait 4/8 years for the next guy. WAKE UP! We ARE at WAR.

Meplat
11-09-2008, 10:57 AM
First off Bush laid the ground work for tyranny by sucking more power into the Executive than any president in history. He was far to unpopular to do anything truly evil with it, but he sure set it up for the next guy to try. Bush is/was the worst president we have ever hand when it comes to preserving our rights. And now we have Obama... Who are you to call people "deranged" anyway?



The party system is a joke. From my other thread- The political game is a distraction, a blindfold. The GOP takes away the 4th amendment, and if you don't like it you can vote in the Democrats next term, and they will take the 2nd. 4/8 years later you can vote again and they will take something else. Meanwhile half the people cheer that they half won and the other have figure they will be ok if they can wait 4/8 years for the next guy. WAKE UP! We ARE at WAR.

+1,000.000

scobun
11-09-2008, 11:05 AM
As long as you have something that goes bang, you can find something that goes bang, bang, bang...and eventually you can find something that goes KaaaAABOOOM! :2:

hoffmang
11-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Who are you to call people "deranged" anyway?
Someone not panicking.


The party system is a joke.
The two party system has issues. Its a blunt force to try to moderate politics to the middle. The Republicans went too far off the tracks and are being punished. Evolutionary style systems are kludgey but the tend to work. You'll all of a sudden see Republicans start to care more about civil rights and small government. You'll also see new energy in third parties. It is an interesting and open question whether people who dislike both parties should work to take control of the Republicans or invigorate a third party. The good news is that we have about 12 months to think about that and the answer isn't obvious.

WAKE UP! We ARE at WAR.
Thanks for panicking. Try this. Walk outside. Look left and tell me if the guy next door is outside with his gun. Look right for the same. I've got news - they aren't panicking like you are. This at war stuff is juvenile.

-Gene

Matt C
11-09-2008, 11:44 AM
The two party system has issues. Its a blunt force to try to moderate politics to the middle. The Republicans went too far off the tracks and are being punished. Evolutionary style systems are kludgey but the tend to work. You'll all of a sudden see Republicans start to care more about civil rights and small government. You'll also see new energy in third parties. It is an interesting and open question whether people who dislike both parties should work to take control of the Republicans or invigorate a third party. The good news is that we have about 12 months to think about that and the answer isn't obvious.


A third party probably won't ever work and is not the answer. George Washington on political parties -

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."

There is more than one kind of war Gene, and not all of them begin with rifles and a battlefield.

383green
11-09-2008, 11:47 AM
As long as you have something that goes bang, you can find something that goes bang, bang, bang...and eventually you can find something that goes KaaaAABOOOM! :2:

This point reminds me of the FP-45 Liberator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator), a pistol that makes a Saturday Night Special look like a fine target gun. The idea behind its development was that its user would use it to procure a better weapon from an enemy soldier, and then either discard it or hand it to another unarmed ally.

Now, if an insurgent doesn't have something that goes bang (and/or doesn't have the ammunition to fed something that goes bang), then there's always something that goes thwock (bow, crossbow, etc.). And failing that, a knife, club, spear, etc. A disarmed but determined insurgent will always be able to find or create some sort of weapon, which can then be used to help procure a better weapon from his or her enemy.

Firearms as we now know them are based on mature technology. Not only can serviceable (albeit primitive) firearms be made with manufacturing techniques approaching two centuries old, but even the firearms that we use today are based on designs nearing a century old. Banning guns, collecting them up and destroying them can never succeed in making them go away, because more can always be made. They're not magic items that can only be produced in state-of-the-art facilities that only a government could afford; anybody with reasonable intelligence and mechanical aptitude could make one in their own home if they were suitably motivated, using tools that could not be eliminated from common availability without reducing society to a stone age condition (granted, manufacturing propellants and particularly primers is a bit trickier). And even in that stone age condition, things like bows, crossbows, spears, etc. could still be made using common natural materials.

I always laugh at anti-gun lawmakers' attempts to find high-tech solutions (smart guns, microstamping, etc.) to what they perceive as the "gun problem", because the guns are fundamentally low-tech devices, and the real problems have nothing to do with technology; they're societal and psychological.

I'm not trying to advocate armed insurrection here, or even taking a side in the "bury vs. don't bury" debate. I'm just commenting on stuff of academic interest.

hoffmang
11-09-2008, 11:51 AM
A third party probably won't ever work and is not the answer. George Washington on political parties -

At multiple points in US History a third party has arisen and choked off the old second party to the point where it became the new second party. It happens and it will happen again. I agree that its hard to predict when the time is right, but I can tell you that thinking it through logically and deciding whether a third party or taking control of the Republican party is a better option.


There is more than one kind of war Gene, and not all of them begin with rifles and a battlefield.
But dumb rhetoric is dumb rhetoric. How about "Mission accomplished!" or "Change we can believe in."

I'm challenging you to stop being alarmist and start being serious. The issue you'll find is that the moment you stop :willy_nilly: and start actually looking at the issues that the sky isn't falling and we can start working on making things better.

-Gene

Matt C
11-09-2008, 11:52 AM
anybody with reasonable intelligence and mechanical aptitude could make one in their own home if they were suitably motivated, using tools that could not be eliminated from common availability without reducing society to a stone age condition (granted, manufacturing propellants and particularly primers is a bit trickier). And even in that stone age condition, things like bows, crossbows, spears, etc. could still be made using common natural materials.


True, that's exactly what's happening in the UK right now.

Kokopelli
11-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Gun owners are too silent...and secretive about their ownership.......if we were to march or protest en masse.....maybe this country would have a glimpse of what could potentially be an army the likes of which the world has never seen. I dont mean a violent march or protest....a peacefull one while anouncing full well we are tired of the 2A rights violations....and that we want protection of these rights once and for all written in stone.

Count me in. Who is organizing it, where, and when will it be held? :cool2:

AJAX22
11-09-2008, 12:20 PM
I vehemently deny I ever buried any guns or ammo in 1968, or 1984. I also deny ever having studied orienteering.

You don't need a secret arsenal. If you can't be effective with just about any decent firearm and a few hundred rounds you are not cut out to be a revelutanry and will probably be dead already any way. If not, you will be using the enemies guns and ammo.

One of the greatest move quotes of all time was uttered by Sam Elliot in "We Were Soldiers": "Sir, if it comes to where I need an M-16 ther'll be plenty of'um layin on the ground."

Its not about Need, its about options.

If you prepare now, you can have more options and therefore more chance of success.

The biggest tool that you have is the ability to walk down the street in total anonymity. something that a man with an M16 can't really do.

There may come a time when carrying on the fight means throwing your gun in a ditch and walking away whistling a merry tune.

If that is your ONLY gun, then your options become limited.

Personally I'm a huge fan of .22 short pistols (particularly the Beretta's, colt JR's, and Astra cub's)

Trendkill
11-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Count me in. Who is organizing it, where, and when will it be held? :cool2:

There is a thread on AR15.com where people are attempting to unite to fight gun rights violations on a grander scale.....NON-VIOLENTLY. There is nothing wrong with protesting peacefully just as many Americans do.

But.....I will say....when the burying of guns is a feasible answer to our debacle....one has to wonder if we are too far removed from peaceful confrontation.

I dont personally believe it is "too far gone".

I have yet to see a massive , (peaceful)...organized public protest of 2A rights....and until that happens.....we are allowing the ball to stay in their court. That is their style....and maybe we should take a hint.

IMO.....war can't happen until you know for certain that you have excercised "All" other options...which we have not.

Kokopelli
11-09-2008, 4:48 PM
Hey, I'm all for a peaceful demonstrations. It's the American way. The anti-prop 8 people are getting national TV coverage so, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." Being as we are in California, I'd be interested in a major California rally.

Meplat
11-09-2008, 5:02 PM
Its not about Need, its about options.

If you prepare now, you can have more options and therefore more chance of success.

The biggest tool that you have is the ability to walk down the street in total anonymity. something that a man with an M16 can't really do.

There may come a time when carrying on the fight means throwing your gun in a ditch and walking away whistling a merry tune.

If that is your ONLY gun, then your options become limited.

Personally I'm a huge fan of .22 short pistols (particularly the Beretta's, colt JR's, and Astra cub's)

+100

Meplat
11-09-2008, 5:19 PM
I have made effective 38 special cartridges from the ground up. Black powder made in my guarage, primers made by recycleing used primers and using strike anywhere matches. I did it just to see if I could. I encourage anyone who does this to clean their gun very thourally as I don't have a clue how corossosive this whole process is.




This point reminds me of the FP-45 Liberator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator), a pistol that makes a Saturday Night Special look like a fine target gun. The idea behind its development was that its user would use it to procure a better weapon from an enemy soldier, and then either discard it or hand it to another unarmed ally.

Now, if an insurgent doesn't have something that goes bang (and/or doesn't have the ammunition to fed something that goes bang), then there's always something that goes thwock (bow, crossbow, etc.). And failing that, a knife, club, spear, etc. A disarmed but determined insurgent will always be able to find or create some sort of weapon, which can then be used to help procure a better weapon from his or her enemy.

Firearms as we now know them are based on mature technology. Not only can serviceable (albeit primitive) firearms be made with manufacturing techniques approaching two centuries old, but even the firearms that we use today are based on designs nearing a century old. Banning guns, collecting them up and destroying them can never succeed in making them go away, because more can always be made. They're not magic items that can only be produced in state-of-the-art facilities that only a government could afford; anybody with reasonable intelligence and mechanical aptitude could make one in their own home if they were suitably motivated, using tools that could not be eliminated from common availability without reducing society to a stone age condition (granted, manufacturing propellants and particularly primers is a bit trickier). And even in that stone age condition, things like bows, crossbows, spears, etc. could still be made using common natural materials.

I always laugh at anti-gun lawmakers' attempts to find high-tech solutions (smart guns, microstamping, etc.) to what they perceive as the "gun problem", because the guns are fundamentally low-tech devices, and the real problems have nothing to do with technology; they're societal and psychological.

I'm not trying to advocate armed insurrection here, or even taking a side in the "bury vs. don't bury" debate. I'm just commenting on stuff of academic interest.

tetris
11-09-2008, 9:52 PM
Damn! I should have thought of that! OK, well, maybe I should invest in some Glocks!

tetris
11-09-2008, 9:55 PM
First off Bush laid the ground work for tyranny by sucking more power into the Executive than any president in history. He was far to unpopular to do anything truly evil with it, but he sure set it up for the next guy to try. Bush is/was the worst president we have ever hand when it comes to preserving our rights.

Seriously man, we have had 43 presidents in our history. Remember Japanese concentration camps? Lincoln suspending habeous corpus during the civil war? Bush isn't the worst president in history regarding civil rights. He is just one of the worst in modern history.

Matt C
11-09-2008, 11:19 PM
Seriously man, we have had 43 presidents in our history. Remember Japanese concentration camps? Lincoln suspending habeous corpus during the civil war? Bush isn't the worst president in history regarding civil rights. He is just one of the worst in modern history.

They did bad things, but Bush was worse. The patriot act, suspending posse comitatus, warrentless wiretapping, the list goes on. He really is the worst one.

mcubed4130
11-10-2008, 12:19 AM
They did bad things, but Bush was worse. The patriot act, suspending posse comitatus, warrentless wiretapping, the list goes on. He really is the worst one.

I'm sure... someone will outdo him... :D soon...

-M3

N6ATF
11-10-2008, 1:16 AM
I dont mean a violent march or protest....a peacefull one while anouncing full well we are tired of the 2A rights violations....and that we want protection of these rights once and for all written in stone.

It seems elected traitors are no longer prosecuted nor executed, so the opportunity to write "Here lies a traitor to the Constitution he swore to support." on gravestones does not exist.

JDay
11-10-2008, 1:43 AM
Seriously man, we have had 43 presidents in our history. Remember Japanese concentration camps? Lincoln suspending habeous corpus during the civil war? Bush isn't the worst president in history regarding civil rights. He is just one of the worst in modern history.

Seems like nobody ever remembers the German-American interment camps we had at the same time as the Japanese-American internment camps. Just like people always remember the holocaust in Europe but always forget that the Japanese killed probably 10x more Chinese than the Nazi's did Jews.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-10-2008, 9:28 AM
Seems like nobody ever remembers the German-American interment camps we had at the same time as the Japanese-American internment camps. Just like people always remember the holocaust in Europe but always forget that the Japanese killed probably 10x more Chinese than the Nazi's did Jews.


There was a difference between the camps. The Germans sent to them weren't German-Americans, but were actually German nationals. Unlike the US citizens sent to Manzanar & the like.

Yes, the almost unbelievable numbers of Chinese killed doesn't receive the attention it should. It wasn't until I read the book "The Rape of Nanking" by Amy Tan (?) that I became aware of the scale of mass murder committed there.

The Raisuli

motorhead
11-10-2008, 9:45 AM
what guns?

M1A Rifleman
11-10-2008, 10:51 AM
Spreading and burying lots of chaff and other scrap metal around may help defeat the metal detector but not ground penetrating radar.

AJAX22
11-10-2008, 10:58 AM
Spreading and burying lots of chaff and other scrap metal around may help defeat the metal detector but not ground penetrating radar.

True... but GPR does not work for the stuff buried under pipes, or little stuff

It is especially hard to find anything buried vertically to minimize cross section.

JDay
11-10-2008, 11:00 AM
There was a difference between the camps. The Germans sent to them weren't German-Americans, but were actually German nationals. Unlike the US citizens sent to Manzanar & the like.


Wrong. And I forgot about the Italian-Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American_internment

Meplat
11-10-2008, 2:46 PM
The Japanese that were interred were Japanese nationals that refused to denounce their Japanese citizenship and voluntarily move inland away from the west coast. The "American Citizens" BS comes from those with dual citizenship and US born children. Many Japanese who lived in or moved to the countries midsection were never interred. Notable among these was the family of "Tokyo Rose", who, believe it or not, was an American patriot.

Americans of German ancestry who were members of the "German-American Bund" before the war, as well as others with questionable loyalty were also interred. I don't know anything about the Italian issue.

The Japanese and the Jews must have had a better press agent than the Chinese.




There was a difference between the camps. The Germans sent to them weren't German-Americans, but were actually German nationals. Unlike the US citizens sent to Manzanar & the like.

Yes, the almost unbelievable numbers of Chinese killed doesn't receive the attention it should. It wasn't until I read the book "The Rape of Nanking" by Amy Tan (?) that I became aware of the scale of mass murder committed there.

The Raisuli

artherd
11-10-2008, 9:09 PM
Some of us are panicking...

And some of us are doing hard work to effect real change for the better in RKBA.

I know which group I've cast my lot with.

jaymz
11-11-2008, 4:06 PM
The time to prepare is now, not soon, or after you have proof positive that they are coming for you.

You need to prepare NOW because you still have the ability to do so.

Remember the Boyscout motto "Be Prepared"

Never forget.

TkS2BRoCd2I

It takes time for the grass to grow back over the holes you dig...

If they pass a law today requiring you to turn your guns in a week from now.... don't you think they'll be talking to neighbors about any suspicious digging that has been going on?

You need to prepare NOW

not tomorrow,

not a week from now,

not after they pass the bad law

NOW

if you had prepared in 1933, you could have tommy guns packed in cosmoline with no paper trail.

If you had prepared in 1967 you could have military surplus restored dewatt guns and silencers stashed with no record of them existing.

If you had prepared in 1981 you could have Drop in Auto Sears, lightning links, and silencer parts kits purchased for cash at any gun show along with paperless open bolt semi auto pistols

If you had prepared in 1990 you could have unregistered handguns stashed with no record of them traceable to you

If you prepare TODAY you can have a homemade AR15 rifle, magazine rebuild kits, ammunition, homemade pistols etc etc etc. and C&R guns with no paperwork

If you prepare TOMORROW you might not be able to have semi auto's without registration paperwork pointing at you, or 'high powered sniper rifles' without special permitting, or 'destructive devices' like shotguns with open choke barrels and a capacity more than the legal hunting limit (3).

Next step (if they close the 'gun show loophole' and the homeade pistol 'loophole' and the high cap magazine parts 'loophole' and the ammunition 'loophole') will probably be cartridge converted black powder pistols, and muskets...

And the next step will be to 'administratively redefine' antique guns to close the pre 1898 'loophole' so you can't get webly's and broomhandles and antique nagants.... and make it so that reproduction cap and ball guns are not exempted from the definition of firearm....

Then you're left with original civil war muzzle loaders and percussion muskets.

until they regulate the 'high explosive' in percussion caps (yes it IS high explosive) so you can't get them... at which time you may have to switch them over to flintlock or matchlock guns...

But since we're pretty much F'ed Wayyyyyy before that point, I would like to suggest once again that you prepare NOW.

I hope to g*d we never get to that point, but I'm not so naive as to think that we are ever more than a few months away from some tragic opportunity for the gun banners to take advantage of a bus load of orphans getting shot up by some wacko.

Don't assume that we will always win on the legal front... in order to keep our rights we have to win EVERY time, our opponents only have to win ONCE.

Prepare NOW because you still can.

/rant

AJAX, I made it this far into the thread, and I must admit, I thought that maybe your tinfoil hat was on a bit too tight. Then I watched that video and my blood boiled. I've heard about all of those gun bans, but hearing those people speak made it much more personal. I just committed to ramping up my efforts 100% to oppose anti-gun legislation more than ever. I hope that everyone else reading this will do the same.

odysseus
11-11-2008, 5:12 PM
Some of us are panicking...

And some of us are doing hard work to effect real change for the better in RKBA.

I know which group I've cast my lot with.

I agree with this. Right now the time calls for political and legal movement on the part of everyone concerned. Not enough even close there has been done that could be - the water hasn't gotten hot enough I imagine. Sure, as Ajax here goes into - one should be prepared when looking on how things have gone historically.

The RKBAs is a human right, and no one here wants to be left in a situation where they are disarmed among a world whom preys on the unarmed.

As for myself, I am asessing my 2008 situation and taxes and will be making a donation run to groups I care about once I am ready. A lot of us can do a lot by either acting or supporting those who do act on the RKBA.

Artherd: I know about the CGF and will be approaching one (probably you) of those members more with detailed questions when I am ready to hand over some monetary support.

.

mur
11-11-2008, 5:36 PM
Bury guns in the backyard, are you crazy?
My dogs would dig that crap up in 10 minutes, sewer lines or not
Come home and all my stuff would be scattered around the yard, chewed to pieces.
No thanks....

snowboarder
11-11-2008, 8:34 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this for quite some time. I actually started thinking about this when we first got the news that Wall Street was tanking. I started having thoughts about Argentina and how they were in this exact same spot about 10yrs ago and how the people took to the streets. All it would take would be mass protest against government policy and that would be the excuse to declare martial law and start confiscating arms like in New Orleans.

God forbid but I've already prepared for this bad situation. Without getting into details make sure you have a back up plan and as someone else already said, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

SB

drclark
11-11-2008, 9:16 PM
I'm all for not panicing but I have to admit the thought of going to the next flat bending party has crossed my mind. 1 or 2 AK's "off the books" and a couple of tins of ammo hidden away somewhere might be way to panic rationally. Might as well put a bible in your stash as well... afterall shouldn't cling to our guns without religion :D

drc

N6ATF
11-12-2008, 12:29 AM
Religion≠God.

indetrucks
11-12-2008, 6:19 AM
bury them at your mother in-laws place, no one would look for em there.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-12-2008, 6:44 AM
Wrong. And I forgot about the Italian-Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American_internment


Interesting! I stand corrected.

The Raisuli