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Suvorov
11-07-2008, 3:17 PM
A quick question on what would be the most prudent/legal way to store a built up lower receiver? Someone I know has a couple that are built up but with no upper: one with a collapsible butt stock the other with a fixed stock. Can they exist with a regular magazine release on them so long as they are not attached to an upper receiver or do they need to be stored with a bullet button or prince 50 + magazine in them? Would removing the magazine catch be sufficient?

Thoughts :confused:

FreedomIsNotFree
11-07-2008, 3:22 PM
I believe the collapsible stock, considered an "evil feature", could cause you some problems without a BB or Prince50.

grammaton76
11-07-2008, 3:24 PM
I imagine that the safest thing to do would be to find just the right size of nut at a hardware store to screw onto the mag release. Put an appropriately cut washer underneath that to keep it from travelling... voila, ghetto maglock, 30c or so apiece.

Store original parts in baggie taped to receiver.

mrjones98
11-07-2008, 3:31 PM
If you don't have an upper attached, then it is not a centerfire rifle.

If you are paranoid/still concerned, the below doesn't work because you don't need a tool to remove the mag lock. Fixed mag setups are exempt because they REQUIRE the use of a tool.

I imagine that the safest thing to do would be to find just the right size of nut at a hardware store to screw onto the mag release. Put an appropriately cut washer underneath that to keep it from travelling... voila, ghetto maglock, 30c or so apiece.

Store original parts in baggie taped to receiver.

DedEye
11-07-2008, 3:32 PM
A quick question on what would be the most prudent/legal way to store a built up lower receiver? Someone I know has a couple that are built up but with no upper: one with a collapsible butt stock the other with a fixed stock. Can they exist with a regular magazine release on them so long as they are not attached to an upper receiver or do they need to be stored with a bullet button or prince 50 + magazine in them? Would removing the magazine catch be sufficient?

Thoughts :confused:

The lowers are fine without a magazine lock.

Any concerns about not having a mag lock is either paranoia or FUD.

A lower is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle, and can thus have evil features.

Suvorov
11-07-2008, 3:52 PM
The lowers are fine without a magazine lock.

Any concerns about not having a mag lock is either paranoia or FUD.

A lower is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle, and can thus have evil features.

Basically what my line of thought is, but I wanted to run it buy the "all knowing council" :)

sac550
11-07-2008, 7:03 PM
If there is not an upper attached to it you are fine because it is not a semiauto, center fire rifle at that point.

383green
11-07-2008, 8:21 PM
You know that a lower without an attached upper is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle, and I know that a lower without an attached upper is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle, but the important question is this: Does a jury of your peers know that a lower without an attached upper is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle, particularly after hearing testimony from a hostile and gun-ignorant prosecutor, and maybe even a hostile and gun-ignorant ATF "expert"?

My own advice, which may go a bit beyond what is strictly necessary under law, is this: If the lower has a pistol grip and/or a collapsible stock attached to it, then I'd also have a suitable magazine lock installed, whether there's an upper on it or not. You may call this paranoia, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not really out to get you.

I prefer to leave a 10rd magazine in the well of each of my fixed-mag rifles as well; even though this is probably not at all necessary, it does make it easy to point at the rifle and say "see, that is a fixed-magazine rifle with a magazine capacity of no more than 10 rounds", and it makes it easy to remember which lowers to not cram an old pre-ban 30 into. This is just a personal preference. I also leave a plastic chamber safety flag in each one, since years of firearms safety indoctrination have taught me to be wary of any gun with a magazine in it, unless it's in my own hands and pointed downrange or at a zombie. ;)

If the lower is built "featureless", and/or simply has no stock/buffer or grip installed, then I think that a regular magazine catch (or no catch at all) should be just fine.

If you are paranoid/still concerned, the below doesn't work because you don't need a tool to remove the mag lock.

If you use a suitably tight locknut and/or thread locking compound, then the nut won't come off without a tool. This was one of the accepted magazine-locking methods in the early days of the OLL craze, long before the fancy bullet buttons that we now use were invented. Some the the early mag-locking kits used an allen nut recessed into a plastic spacer, while the poor-man's home-made method was to use a locknut from the hardware store, optionally concealed under a plastic screw head cover (also from the hardware store).

stphnman20
11-07-2008, 8:34 PM
Are you going to use the lower here in CA?
Why not just put on a BB on it right now and get over it?! So you dont have to worry about putting it on later when you get your upper..

383green
11-07-2008, 8:52 PM
Would removing the magazine catch be sufficient?

Let me pick on this one small point: Removing the magazine catch would do nothing to change the classification of the gun. It's not the presence of a regular magazine catch that makes a magazine detachable, so removing it doesn't render the magazine non-detachable. As long as the magazine can be removed without the use of a tool and without disassembly of the rifle action, it is considered detachable. A magazine which falls out under the force of gravity is just as detachable as one that drops out when you press a button with your finger. Having no magazine catch at all just makes the magazine... detachabler? ;)

X-NewYawker
11-07-2008, 8:58 PM
The lowers are fine without a magazine lock.

Any concerns about not having a mag lock is either paranoia or FUD.

A lower is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle, and can thus have evil features.

I just want to be clear on this -- why do the stores that transfer my OLLs insist that a lower must have a BB before it will leave the store -- even though I may NEVER put an upper on it?>

383green
11-07-2008, 9:09 PM
I just want to be clear on this -- why do the stores that transfer my OLLs insist that a lower must have a BB before it will leave the store -- even though I may NEVER put an upper on it?

Or, you may build it in a configuration where a mag log is not legally required for that matter.

I suspect those stores' managers/owners are simply being paranoid and/or ignorant if they're requiring installation of a BB on an otherwise stripped lower. Now, given the hostile treatment that the store owners may have experienced and/or heard of from both CA DOJ and the ATF, the paranoia may be arguably justified.

It bothers me when gun store owners/managers place additional, unnecessary and possibly paranoid restrictions on their customers, particularly if those restrictions line their store's pockets more by requiring unnecessary purchases or charges. However, in this case, the fact that they're even willing to transfer the OLLs at all despite all of the FUD that CA DOJ has sprayed them with sets them a step above most of the FFLs in this state. Despite the unambiguous legality of OLLs (with a little bit of care to avoid configuring them illegally), there's still a thick aura of FUD around them.

mattmcg
11-07-2008, 9:23 PM
If you don't have an upper attached, then it is not a centerfire rifle.

Eeeck! WRONG!!!!!

I know with all the excitement around here lately, everybody is feeling the need to rush to get their stuff while they can (without any reason to do so yet I may add), but it is in bad form to state a supposed fact to someone about legality when it isn't true..... Please watch it. We don't want anybody getting into trouble.

To clarify, the lower is the firearm. If you attach a pistol grip and/or a telescoping stock to a lower that doesn't have a mag lock, you have manufactured an illegal assault weapon.

The best way to store a lower is 1)in stripped form 2)without evil features (monsterman and fixed stock) or 3)with a mag-lock.

Please see the AW flowchart for more info.

bwiese
11-07-2008, 11:53 PM
Eeeck! WRONG!!!!!


Matt, sorry,you're wrong.

We know that an upperless OLL receiver - regardless of stripped status or if various features attached - is not semiautomatic, nor centerfire, and is not even a rifle. All the lower is is a 'firearm' - not a pistol, rifle or shotgun or any other specialty entity.

An OLL lower with a pistolgrip and/or telestock attached is not an AW.

Semiauto and centefire status can only be garnered by attachment of the upper, because it's the upper that has (or doesn't have) those particular attributes.

This was addressed even in the legislative analysis of AB2728 back in Aug 2006.

In fact, due to this logic and the wording of 12276PC, it appears that possession of a stripped *listed* receiver (either via Roberti-Roos or Kasler) is readily defendable (but not recommende conduct).

Pred Thumper
11-07-2008, 11:58 PM
I just want to be clear on this -- why do the stores that transfer my OLLs insist that a lower must have a BB before it will leave the store -- even though I may NEVER put an upper on it?>

I know I know ... because they dont know for a fact that your not going to build it. right?

I say that in the privacy of your own home only your rules apply, once you elect to go public or start a show and tell then you best be legal. Just my opinion

DedEye
11-08-2008, 3:22 AM
Are you going to use the lower here in CA?
Why not just put on a BB on it right now and get over it?! So you dont have to worry about putting it on later when you get your upper..

Because sometimes people want to use a lower receiver with a pistol grip and regular magazine release with their dedicated .22 upper.

I just want to be clear on this -- why do the stores that transfer my OLLs insist that a lower must have a BB before it will leave the store -- even though I may NEVER put an upper on it?>

They are hyper-paranoid and don't understand that it's not illegal for the reasons already listed.

Eeeck! WRONG!!!!!

...

To clarify, the lower is the firearm. If you attach a pistol grip and/or a telescoping stock to a lower that doesn't have a mag lock, you have manufactured an illegal assault weapon.

As Bill said, you're the one who is wrong. A lower receiver with a pistol grip or any other prohibited feature is not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. A lower receiver with a regular magazine release button and evil features can be legally used with a pump action, centerfire upper, a bolt action centerfire upper, or a semi-automatic, rimfire upper.

None of those options constitute manufacturing a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle.

mattmcg
11-09-2008, 12:24 AM
Interesting, I will have to read the references that you cite Bill. I was under the impression that the rollmark on the lower, that being 5.56, .223, or 6.8, designated the firearm portion as a centerfire rifle simply by rollmark labeling and the corresponding caliber reference making it obvious as a centerfire. In addition, being that these are "rifle" calibers, it would be logical to define it as a rifle. I do see though that this could still result in a pump action upper being attached which would obviously muddy the waters. In the scenario with "multi-caliber" or "multi" on the rollmark, it would obviously muddy the waters as well.

Well, if I was wrong, I apologize. Not sure how or where I missed this one but I am willing to man up to it since this isn't a frequent occurence..... I guess I can also lessen my own restrictions about having mag locks on any of my half-built lowers (which all of them have at the moment).

mattmcg
11-09-2008, 12:37 AM
Also...

Bill, do you happen to have any links or PDF'd documents of the legislative analysis of AB2728? I'd love to give it a read but can't seem to find the one you're referring too. Thanks.

DedEye
11-09-2008, 1:42 AM
Interesting, I will have to read the references that you cite Bill. I was under the impression that the rollmark on the lower, that being 5.56, .223, or 6.8, designated the firearm portion as a centerfire rifle simply by rollmark labeling and the corresponding caliber reference making it obvious as a centerfire.

The roll marks don't mean anything. You can use a dedicated .22 upper on a lower marked 5.56/.223 (or any other centerfire caliber) and it doesn't change the fact that it's a .22, plain and simple.

In addition, being that these are "rifle" calibers, it would be logical to define it as a rifle. I do see though that this could still result in a pump action upper being attached which would obviously muddy the waters. In the scenario with "multi-caliber" or "multi" on the rollmark, it would obviously muddy the waters as well.

As mentioned, roll marks don't mean a thing. Constructive possession does not apply either, so what you could build with the lower is irrelevant, all that matters is what you do build with it.The fact that they are "rifle" calibers is irrelevant and does nothing to determine whether they are rifles or pistols. There are .223 AR pistols (which fall under their own restrictions according to CA AW laws, but that's a separate issue). There are no muddy waters. Don't build a lower into a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle and it won't BE a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle.

Well, if I was wrong, I apologize. Not sure how or where I missed this one but I am willing to man up to it since this isn't a frequent occurence..... I guess I can also lessen my own restrictions about having mag locks on any of my half-built lowers (which all of them have at the moment).

It happens to all of us :).

elsolo
11-09-2008, 7:34 AM
How about the ten second solution that costs nothing:
remove the pistol grip

bwiese
11-09-2008, 8:52 AM
Also...

Bill, do you happen to have any links or PDF'd documents of the legislative analysis of AB2728? I'd love to give it a read but can't seem to find the one you're referring too. Thanks.

Search in http://www.leginfo.ca.gov - you'll have to dig back in 2006 for AB2728.

Regardless of that, the law bans certain semiauto centerfire *rifles*, etc.

A receiver is just a receiver, and markings are irrelevant other than a listed make/model.

383green
11-09-2008, 7:11 PM
so it is ok to get this http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n6semicl&cat=10&page=1&search=&since=&status= with no BB installed

As others have written, it's probably OK, since that's not a "rifle" yet. Still, I wouldn't.

sorensen440
11-09-2008, 7:16 PM
so it is ok to get this http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n6semicl&cat=10&page=1&search=&since=&status= with no BB installed

Yes

grammaton76
11-10-2008, 4:58 PM
How about the ten second solution that costs nothing:
remove the pistol grip

It may cost you a replacement spring and safety detent, if you manage to lose those because you took out the pistol grip. :)

M. Sage
11-10-2008, 5:03 PM
You know that a lower without an attached upper is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle, and I know that a lower without an attached upper is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle, but the important question is this: Does a jury of your peers know that a lower without an attached upper is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle, particularly after hearing testimony from a hostile and gun-ignorant prosecutor, and maybe even a hostile and gun-ignorant ATF "expert"?

Prosecutors don't testify. ATF expert? Not likely. Iggy Chinn? Maybe. I'd love to see Iggy take the stand and try something that dumb with a Calgunner's case, though. :43:

I think they'd understand it after the expert for the defense got done, though.

Ironchef
11-10-2008, 5:18 PM
I had this discussion in a thread I started regarding some fud from an FFL who insisted I bring in my completed lower (no upper) with a bullet button. THere is no constructive posession law and as said above...no upper attached making it semi-auto and centerfire.