PDA

View Full Version : Trip to Ade's: Why he won't sell bullet buttons...


dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:01 PM
Edited for clarification: Blue text has been inserted.

I was just over at Ade's Gun Shop today and asked Ade whether he has any bullet buttons in stock. He said that he stopped carrying them because another customer and friend of his had been successfully prosecuted even though his AR-style OLL had a bullet button installed. sent to prison for being observed with an open magazine well even with a bullet-button installed. (Ade did not state this unfortunate person's name and did not seem to want to.)

Now, Ade's an upright guy and definitely an ardent supporter of gun rights, so this isn't a FUD operation, and there's no way he'd lie about the case. I definitely believe his story. (Plus, it was clear from his tone that he was not intending to scare me in any way--he was just explaining why he doesn't carry the BB any more. He does carry the Prince50 and various Raddlocks.)

I peppered him with questions trying to figure out the reason behind the DA's assumed win in that case. It appears to stem from the fact that the guy had been photographed and videotaped by law enforcement with an open mag well on several counts (between several mag changes).

So I went back and re-read the Roberti-Roos law and re-read the memorandum at:

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

The Roberti-Roos law itself says (emphasis added):

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.

And the memorandum says on page 4:

[Correctly quoted from California Code of Regulations Sec. 978.20(a)] "[D]etachable magazine means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

and then says (also from page 4):

the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached!


Now, here's why I started this thread: Based on the original wording of the law under 12276.1 and the later clarification provided by 978.20(a), a bullet button allows an open magazine well, because although the receiver can ACCEPT a magazine, that magazine is NOT DETACHABLE without the use of a tool.

But, why does the memorandum warn that "the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached?"

Is the memorandum wrong? If so, shouldn't it be updated?

Furthermore, and of great importance: ARE THERE ANY SUCCESSFUL BULLET-BUTTON DEFENSES THAT CAN BE CITED AS LEGAL PRECEDENT?


Remember, keep your courage about you. This is a no-FUD zone, just a legal clarification. If you are the least bit frightened, just print out the OLL flowchart, the memorandum, and the text of the law (both sections) to assemble a sort-of "legal kit" and put this kit in your rifle case.

Moderators: yes, this probably should have been put under the 2nd Amendment and Laws forum, but that forum's pretty dead, and this needs a lot of eyes on it.

dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:06 PM
Oh, yeah-- Please do not post with "just print out the AW/OLL flowchart and go convert Ade." That's not going to work if one of his friends is actually in jail, as we speak, for being photographed with an open mag well on a bullet-button-outfitted AR. Ade is CONVINCED the BB is too risky to use without disassembling the weapon before removing the magazine.

ke6guj
11-06-2008, 5:09 PM
Now, here's why I started this thread: Based on the original wording of the law under 12276.1 and the later clarification provided by 978.20(a), a bullet button allows an open magazine well, because although the receiver can ACCEPT a magazine, that magazine is NOT DETACHABLE without the use of a tool.

But, why does the memorandum warn that "the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached?"

Is the memorandum wrong? If so, shouldn't it be updated?
.

The memorandum warns that because it was written before the BBs and the legal theory about them became common.

Yes, the memo needs to be updated, but nobody has had time to update it or write a new one.

hawk1
11-06-2008, 5:10 PM
Makes no sense. Ade knows all well that the bullet button and Raddlock are essentially the same in operation. Why would he continue selling Raddlocks? They are no different in operation....

ke6guj
11-06-2008, 5:12 PM
If you can, get the name from Ade and forward it on to the Right People so that it can be further researched.

And not carrying Bullet Button while you carry Raddlocks seems a little wierd. Both of them are of the same reasoning that Accepting a Non-Detachable magazine is not illegal.

dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:15 PM
Makes no sense. Ade knows all well that the bullet button and Raddlock are essentially the same in operation. Why would he continue selling Raddlocks? They are no different in operation....

Yeah! Actually, I asked him that twice, and he made a funny face while responding, so he definitely knows that they are effectively the same in operation. He said, as a feeble defense, something along the lines of "well, nobody has been successfully prosecuted for using a Raddlock yet," and "I sell them because they're the only solution currently available for those particular weapons." I don't hold that against him--he's trying his best to provide fixed-mag solutions to us.

So--yes, the memo is old and incorrect? Then, I suppose I shouldn't include it in my legal kit!

grammaton76
11-06-2008, 5:18 PM
The memo is old and more paranoid/cautious than we are nowadays.

Anyway, I see "an idiot plead guilty with a bullet button" here, not "somehow we never heard about a prosecution that went all the way" with a bullet button.

dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:20 PM
The memo is old and more paranoid/cautious than we are nowadays.

Anyway, I see "an idiot plead guilty with a bullet button" here, not "somehow we never heard about a prosecution that went all the way" with a bullet button.

Ade didn't say whether the guy pled guilty or not, and I didn't think to ask... It would be great to know though, so I'll ask him again when I go the next time.

So, anybody have any legal precedent of a successful bullet-button defense?

nobs11
11-06-2008, 5:27 PM
If it is as you/Ade say, the Right People would have found out about it and either Bill or Gene or someone from the CGF would have posted something here to that effect. Without details, this is FUD, no matter who said it. There might be other details to the case. If there were a case of successful prosecution for using the BB, we would know about it.

dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:34 PM
Got it--my bad. Now, how do I change the title of this thread (so as to reduce FUD), and I volunteer to update the memo, if that can be done effectively. Are there any other changes/updates/points that should be included in the memo to reduce confusion to newbies?

Patriot
11-06-2008, 5:37 PM
how do I change the title of this thread (so as to reduce FUD)


Go to your original post
Click Edit
Click Go Advanced
Change the title field
Save Changes


:)

Fjold
11-06-2008, 5:45 PM
So Ade is spreading FUD?

sorensen440
11-06-2008, 5:48 PM
So Ade is spreading FUD?

sounds like it

dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:51 PM
Original post edited--thanks Patriot for the instructions!

While I'd like to say that Ade isn't spreading FUD, well, the fact is that he is--even if unintentional, and for a minute there, so was I.

Capt. Speirs
11-06-2008, 5:52 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=128160

I told you guys, I heard the same thing from Turners about Ade's.

BTW, already bought my BB.

grammaton76
11-06-2008, 5:55 PM
Ade didn't say whether the guy pled guilty or not, and I didn't think to ask... It would be great to know though, so I'll ask him again when I go the next time.

So, anybody have any legal precedent of a successful bullet-button defense?

I believe BWO is the closest thing. But the deal is that the state REALLY doesn't want to prosecute BB's (well, they want to win or cow the guy into taking a plea and don't want it going to trial). The state tends to offer AB2728 deals in place of lawyer fees, which I believe has happened in each case so far.

So far, everyone they've popped for a bullet button has settled rather than ride it out all the way. Of course, the state pointedly refuses to go after folks like artherd, who've stated a number of times they've got the wherewithal to take the case all the way.

...what's that tell you about how strong the State's case is? :)

dchang0
11-06-2008, 5:56 PM
BTW, already bought my BB.

Good man! I'm going to buy mine from someone who'll sell me one, LOL!

(Riflegear has 'em in stock; I am waiting for the rumored newly-redesigned B-15)

tankerman
11-06-2008, 5:58 PM
So Ade is spreading FUD?
Sure sounds that way.

When was the last time a DA and LE in California didn't publicize and assault weapons arrest?

If this guy was photographed with an open magwell why weren't the other 50 people shooting AR's configured that way also arrested? There's only one place to shoot AR's in OC(happens to be indoor, I've shot mine there), not sure how they would take surveilance pictures at an indoor range without the help of the owner. If it didn't happen there the other ranges are Burro Canyon and Lytle Creek where plenty of folks shoot them (AR's)regularly

This whole thing sounds like FUD to me.

nobs11
11-06-2008, 5:59 PM
So far, everyone they've popped for a bullet button has settled rather than ride it out all the way. Of course, the state pointedly refuses to go after folks like artherd, who've stated a number of times they've got the wherewithal to take the case all the way.


How much would it cost to take it all the way? 10k? A 100k? Ballpark estimates would be nice. Thanks.

dchang0
11-06-2008, 6:02 PM
If this guy was photographed with an open magwell why weren't the other 50 people shooting AR's configured that way also arrested? There's only one place to shoot AR's in OC(happens to be indoor, I've shot mine there), not sure how they would take surveilance pictures at an indoor range without the help of the owner. If it didn't happen there the other ranges are Burro Canyon and Lytle Creek where plenty of folks shoot them (AR's)regularly

Ade said that the guy was shooting out in the desert somewhere along the 10 fwy way out east. A handful of others were shooting there too, but apparently the law enforcement took photos and video from a parked (presumably unmarked) car some distance away.

tankerman
11-06-2008, 6:03 PM
Turners=pimply faced teenagers

Turners is right up the street, probably the same moron that told the lie to Ade was spreading his lies up and down Tustin Ave.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=128160

I told you guys, I heard the same thing from Turners about Ade's.

BTW, already bought my BB.

Capt. Speirs
11-06-2008, 6:05 PM
Good man! I'm going to buy mine from someone who'll sell me one, LOL!

(Riflegear has 'em in stock; I am waiting for the rumored newly-redesigned B-15)

Got mine from Ammobros

tankerman
11-06-2008, 6:06 PM
Ade said that the guy was shooting out in the desert somewhere along the 10 fwy way out east. A handful of others were shooting there too, but apparently the law enforcement took photos and video from a parked (presumably unmarked) car some distance away.SOunds like that guy that posted his black rifle was take away by someone from Fish and Game or a BLM officer, can't remember exactly.

Either way I still think it's FUD.

natasha69
11-06-2008, 6:11 PM
not addressing whether this is a concern or not, but more addressing why a store owner wouldn't carry a certain product or not, me thinks ade has probably got a civil case against him which specifically involves the BB from the guy who got arrested. probably reading tea leaves here, but i would guess the guy probably put all the blame on ade, saying "but but he said it was legal".

any good lawyer would tell ade to get rid of the product in question to show good faith, at least if litigation was in process. just my view on the tea leaves...

capitol
11-06-2008, 6:16 PM
Is there more of a profit margin on the Raddlock versus Bullet Button?

dchang0
11-06-2008, 6:18 PM
natasha69: That could very well be true, which would explain Ade's overall defensive stance, which is both surprising and disappointing.

Hey, on the AR/AK memo, since the flowchart is complete and current, maybe we should pull the memorandum and put it into some archive somewhere, just for reference purposes. Having a link to it on the front page of calguns.net could lead to unnecessary confusion.

hoffmang
11-06-2008, 7:14 PM
1. If someone actually had something more than charged for using a bullet button he was not bright enough to speak to anyone in the network of the right people. There are not many AW cases that aren't laced with other crimes that I don't find out about or aren't handled by one of the Right people.

2. I can't say why I'm confident of this statement, but if someone got in trouble for using the bullet button, DOJ BoF didn't have anything to do with it.

I suggest you tell Ade's to call one of us - including one of the lawyers - or ask him to please stop spreading FUD. If someone got convicted with a bullet button and no other crime, we want his appeal.

-Gene

tyrist
11-06-2008, 8:15 PM
1. If someone actually had something more than charged for using a bullet button he was not bright enough to speak to anyone in the network of the right people. There are not many AW cases that aren't laced with other crimes that I don't find out about or aren't handled by one of the Right people.
2. I can't say why I'm confident of this statement, but if someone got in trouble for using the bullet button, DOJ BoF didn't have anything to do with it.

I suggest you tell Ade's to call one of us - including one of the lawyers - or ask him to please stop spreading FUD. If someone got convicted with a bullet button and no other crime, we want his appeal.

-Gene

Domestic violence get's them everytime.

hoffmang
11-06-2008, 8:32 PM
Domestic violence get's them everytime.

Surprisingly that's not usually what "bad" AW cases are colored by.

-Gene

rabagley
11-06-2008, 9:11 PM
Well now you've got me all curious.

dchang0
11-06-2008, 10:11 PM
I'll talk with Ade next time I stop by the shop. Others are invited to speak with him also. I've found through personal experience that it takes roughly three different people repeating a suggestion to amicably change a person's mind that's made up.

grammaton76
11-07-2008, 12:33 AM
How much would it cost to take it all the way? 10k? A 100k? Ballpark estimates would be nice. Thanks.

You'll get much better info out of the thread on Blackwater OPS's arrest, but I seem to recall that the money involved to take it "all the way", just for the first trial (not appeals, etc) would've been around $300k.

inda_bebe
11-07-2008, 8:34 AM
i think its cause someone got canned for a BB, and not a Raddlock. so until somone gets busted w/ the Radd, then he'd probably pull it off the shelves.

Makes no sense. Ade knows all well that the bullet button and Raddlock are essentially the same in operation. Why would he continue selling Raddlocks? They are no different in operation....

InsightsBest
11-07-2008, 9:43 AM
:fud: like everyone says WE WOULD HAVE HEARD ABOUT IT

Pred Thumper
11-07-2008, 10:00 AM
Respectfully, I know that the bigger picture (at least from an attorneys perspective and the rest of us) is to establish a proper definition of the what is legal and what is not. Unfortunately, thats brings little comfort to the "victim" if in fact he/she is a victim of the perceived ambiguity of the law.

So my question is, is there really anything we can do while exercising our legal right to shoot (our AR's in this case) at a public range to state a valid position when confronted with a simular situation. Based on what I have heard relative to legal costs and test case scenarios maybe the safest way to go would be with a functioning Prince 50. IMHO Make sense or am I out in left field :)

shark92651
11-07-2008, 10:19 AM
Based on what I have heard relative to legal costs and test case scenarios maybe the safest way to go would be with a functioning Prince 50. IMHO Make sense or am I out in left field :)

Pred, how many times have you shot your AR at a public range? Let's not give into the FUD and feed it. From a legal standpoint either prevents a "detachable magazine" as defined in the letter of the law. If it makes you feel safer, just top-load at the range - you can do that with a Bullet Button too.

LIFELINE
11-07-2008, 10:44 AM
I went to Ade's about a month ago and they have a small box labeled Bullet Button and another one label Prince 50. I told a young clerk if I could take a look at the bullet button so he grabbed the box labeled bullet button and showed me what he taught was a BB, it was a Prince 50. I told him that this wasn't a BB. So I ask him again do you have any BB's in stock that I can take a look at. He pointed to a complete lower receiver and told me it had a BB installed on it, it didn't. That the last time I'm going to Ade's for anything concerning AR's. They don't even know what a BB looks like.

grammaton76
11-07-2008, 1:41 PM
I went to Ade's about a month ago and they have a small box labeled Bullet Button and another one label Prince 50. I told a young clerk if I could take a look at the bullet button so he grabbed the box labeled bullet button and showed me what he taught was a BB, it was a Prince 50. I told him that this wasn't a BB. So I ask him again do you have any BB's in stock that I can take a look at. He pointed to a complete lower receiver and told me it had a BB installed on it, it didn't. That the last time I'm going to Ade's for anything concerning AR's. They don't even know what a BB looks like.

Hmm. Ya know, if the guy had a Prince50 and was taking the mag out, then that explains everything in this thread.

A lot of folks who don't read the law have this idea that it's legal to use the alan wrench to undo the screw on the prince50 to change mags, and then have to screw it back down once they install it...

rolly
11-07-2008, 3:31 PM
I went to Ade's about a month ago and they have a small box labeled Bullet Button and another one label Prince 50. I told a young clerk if I could take a look at the bullet button so he grabbed the box labeled bullet button and showed me what he taught was a BB, it was a Prince 50. I told him that this wasn't a BB. So I ask him again do you have any BB's in stock that I can take a look at. He pointed to a complete lower receiver and told me it had a BB installed on it, it didn't. That the last time I'm going to Ade's for anything concerning AR's. They don't even know what a BB looks like.

did you check the box with label Prince 50?

NiteQwill
11-07-2008, 4:00 PM
I went to Ade's about a month ago and they have a small box labeled Bullet Button and another one label Prince 50. I told a young clerk if I could take a look at the bullet button so he grabbed the box labeled bullet button and showed me what he taught was a BB, it was a Prince 50. I told him that this wasn't a BB. So I ask him again do you have any BB's in stock that I can take a look at. He pointed to a complete lower receiver and told me it had a BB installed on it, it didn't. That the last time I'm going to Ade's for anything concerning AR's. They don't even know what a BB looks like.

Yikes... Ade always seems to be a standup guy but anything AR related I take my business to those who know locally... Ammo Bros or J&J.

tyrist
11-07-2008, 7:14 PM
Surprisingly that's not usually what "bad" AW cases are colored by.

-Gene

Well in my personal experiance...when I end up with an Illegal AW case it originated with a DV call.

Pred Thumper
11-07-2008, 8:07 PM
So as long as you prevent unwanted attention your home is your castle

Artery
11-07-2008, 11:30 PM
Hmm. Ya know, if the guy had a Prince50 and was taking the mag out, then that explains everything in this thread.

A lot of folks who don't read the law have this idea that it's legal to use the alan wrench to undo the screw on the prince50 to change mags, and then have to screw it back down once they install it...

Hadn't thought of it like that, but that sounds very likely to me. Another poster also said the guys at this shop don't know a prince 50 from a BB. This is exactly why I didn't get the prince 50, way too easy to end up committing a felony.

This does sound like something that would be in the newspaper as a high profile arrest to set a precedent on AW law, even if it was a prince 50 and not a BB.

dchang0
11-08-2008, 10:13 AM
I don't think it was a Prince50. Ade did describe the difference between the two in the conversation, saying that the Prince50 "has a set screw down the middle" and saying that you'd have to break apart the upper from the lower and top-load the Prince50 to be safely legal.

But, of course, that doesn't mean his employees know the difference... And, just because Ade knows a Prince50 doesn't mean the guy that was busted knew what he was doing.

The Director
11-08-2008, 10:40 AM
The whole story stinks. Why would anyone videotape him changing mags? THere are thousands of registered assault weapons in the state. The guy could have had a legitimate one, and was changing out mags without any prince 50 or BB.

The act of being seen changing out magazines should not be illegal in a cop
s eyes - for all he knows you legally own an AW, much less an OLL. You'd think they would simply ask you if was an AW!

CAL.BAR
11-08-2008, 2:17 PM
How much would it cost to take it all the way? 10k? A 100k? Ballpark estimates would be nice. Thanks.

I or any other crim def atty (with pro gun leanings) should be able to take that case to trial for approx 5K-10K + whatever you may have to pay weapons expert(s) to come testify. I suspect if there are any in the area, they may reduce their rates if they are on the right team

Chunky_lover
11-08-2008, 2:22 PM
I try to play it safe by always keeping a empty mag in the rifle at the range or when transporting it, and at home. At the range if im not loading a full mag in it I have an empty mag popped in at all times. That way hopefully I wont get hassled by the authorities. I think someone should make a part for the magwell where you also need the same tool to insert and remove the mag, maybe if we had something like that there is no way a mag can be inserted without a tool.

hawk1
11-08-2008, 2:38 PM
I try to play it safe by always keeping a empty mag in the rifle at the range or when transporting it, and at home. At the range if im not loading a full mag in it I have an empty mag popped in at all times. That way hopefully I wont get hassled by the authorities. I think someone should make a part for the magwell where you also need the same tool to insert and remove the mag, maybe if we had something like that there is no way a mag can be inserted without a tool.

Sounds nice, but if they are ignorant of the law and willing to bust you for using a tool to remove they'll also do it for using a tool to attach...
Besides the law is what it is. Specifically written for the use of a tool to detach as in the SKS.

Chunky_lover
11-08-2008, 2:48 PM
Another thing why we should be able to have some sort of removable mag with the ar type rifles with all the EVIL FEATURES is when there is a problem and you cant shotgun the rifle open because you have a sealed or welded mag, and the bolt is back in the stock, at least you can remove the mag and hopefully fix it without having a loaded rifle. Its a safety thing. Im not sure when storing it if you can have the magwell open ( I always keep a mag in it) but it would be nice because you can use a cable lock through the magwell and ejection port to really secure it and keep someone from taking it apart and swapping uppers to use it.

busarich
11-08-2008, 5:19 PM
I had something today up in vacaville shooting range, I brought the AR out and was told that me having a BB was illegal and that my AR would not be allowed there. I asked where he got this info, and he told me that he called the DOJ and they said that it was illegal because the mag was not "permant fixed". This state is very irritating, I can not wait to get orders.

andrewj
11-08-2008, 5:31 PM
I had something today up in vacaville shooting range, I brought the AR out and was told that me having a BB was illegal and that my AR would not be allowed there. I asked where he got this info, and he told me that he called the DOJ and they said that it was illegal because the mag was not "permant fixed". This state is very irritating, I can not wait to get orders.

Did someone who worked at the range tell you that? The law desnt say anything about a mag needing to be permanent, right? It just cant be "removed readily". People really piss me off sometimes.

hoffmang
11-08-2008, 5:56 PM
Oaklander and I destroyed the DOJ BoF's so called permanence requirement here (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf).

-Gene

shark92651
11-08-2008, 6:00 PM
Yeah, somebody is spreading old FUD. The least they could do is come up with some original FUD:rolleyes:

busarich
11-08-2008, 6:49 PM
The owner is the one who told me that.

andrewj
11-08-2008, 6:54 PM
The owner is the one who told me that.

Then that pisses me off even more :mad:

busarich
11-08-2008, 7:01 PM
Oaklander and I destroyed the DOJ BoF's so called permanence requirement here (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf).

-Gene
I am going to print that out and let the owner of the facility take a gander.

Moonclip
11-09-2008, 8:46 AM
12. I can't say why I'm confident of this statement, but if someone got in trouble for using the bullet button, DOJ BoF didn't have anything to do with it.

I suggest you tell Ade's to call one of us - including one of the lawyers - or ask him to please stop spreading FUD. If someone got convicted with a bullet button and no other crime, we want his appeal.

-Gene


+10000000000000 Seems VERY FUDish to me... Something is not adding up here.

drankhpnotic22
11-09-2008, 11:45 PM
so is it a felony if u drop the mag out with th bb equiped on your rifle??? and if so how would u reload an ak with that type of fixed mag?????

dchang0
11-09-2008, 11:48 PM
so is it a felony if u drop the mag out with th bb equiped on your rifle??? and if so how would u reload an ak with that type of fixed mag?????

No! Read the thread--it is perfectly legal to drop the mag when you are using a bullet button. Ade's MISTAKEN claim is that it is not legal--we are trying to figure out the truth of the matter.

ohsmily
11-10-2008, 8:17 AM
so is it a felony if u drop the mag out with th bb equiped on your rifle??? and if so how would u reload an ak with that type of fixed mag?????

:banghead:

NO NO NO. The whole point of the BB is to allow you to remove the fixed magazine with the use of a tool (and be legal with an empty magazine well). Read more, post less. Read the flow chart. There is a link in the blue bar above.

ohsmily
11-10-2008, 8:19 AM
I had something today up in vacaville shooting range, I brought the AR out and was told that me having a BB was illegal and that my AR would not be allowed there. I asked where he got this info, and he told me that he called the DOJ and they said that it was illegal because the mag was not "permant fixed". This state is very irritating, I can not wait to get orders.

What range is this? Guns and Fishing? They are not OLL tolerant. Worse, they spread BS and state they are illegal rather than simply state that they choose not to do any business concerning them.

busarich
11-10-2008, 10:25 AM
What range is this? Guns and Fishing? They are not OLL tolerant. Worse, they spread BS and state they are illegal rather than simply state that they choose not to do any business concerning them.


Yeah it was them. I am not sure of the brand but they had a AR15 on the shelf forsale, but it might not have been a OLL.

drankhpnotic22
11-10-2008, 12:09 PM
:banghead:

NO NO NO. The whole point of the BB is to allow you to remove the fixed magazine with the use of a tool (and be legal with an empty magazine well). Read more, post less. Read the flow chart. There is a link in the blue bar above.

hey buddy im just tryin to make sure i got my bases covered!!!!! and get outta here with that post less bs!!!!!!

Clodbuster
11-10-2008, 12:12 PM
There's a Youtube video of an ex-DOJ agent saying the BB is legal. You can record that on tape and hand it to the owner as well.


Clod

I am going to print that out and let the owner of the facility take a gander.

ohsmily
11-10-2008, 1:18 PM
Yeah it was them. I am not sure of the brand but they had a AR15 on the shelf forsale, but it might not have been a OLL.

It was probably a sealed magazine well Bushmaster or FAB10 or an epoxied magazine.

Like I said, it is there prerogative to choose not to sell OLLs, etc. BUT, they are morons for spreading the wrong information about the law and the legality of said items.

Ballistic043
11-10-2008, 2:33 PM
what exactly does this mean.

"that it will not issue, use, enforce, or attempt to enforce the alleged underground regulation you challenged, except on a case by case basis as permitted by tidewater marine western, inc. v. bradshaw (1996)14 Ca.4th 557, 572."

so this means they can enforce an underground regulation depending on the circumstances of the case? then that would mean any of us are potential targets.

busarich
11-10-2008, 4:43 PM
It was probably a sealed magazine well Bushmaster or FAB10 or an epoxied magazine.

Like I said, it is there prerogative to choose not to sell OLLs, etc. BUT, they are morons for spreading the wrong information about the law and the legality of said items.

Agreed.

Ballistic043
11-10-2008, 4:48 PM
does anyone care to comment on the type in bold? it sure does sound discouraging

hoffmang
11-10-2008, 4:49 PM
what exactly does this mean.

"that it will not issue, use, enforce, or attempt to enforce the alleged underground regulation you challenged, except on a case by case basis as permitted by tidewater marine western, inc. v. bradshaw (1996)14 Ca.4th 557, 572."

so this means they can enforce an underground regulation depending on the circumstances of the case? then that would mean any of us are potential targets.

It's Alison trying hard to violate California law. She's estopped by agreeing not to enforce the rule under the Administrative Procedures Act - regardless of her "caveat." I'll put it this way - either she's estopped or she forced Jerry Brown to commit perjury in an attempt to violate rights under the Constitution - a crime in Federal and State law.

-Gene

yamahard
11-10-2008, 4:59 PM
What range is this? Guns and Fishing? They are not OLL tolerant. Worse, they spread BS and state they are illegal rather than simply state that they choose not to do any business concerning them.

I live very close to this establishment and have been there several times. These guys are ignorant. Their prices on firearms are high. Their prices on ammo are high. Hell their prices on everything are high.
They are definately not OLL freindly. I personally will not take my business there any longer. What did it for me was an incident over the weekend that I witnessed while I was just looking around at some pistols on the wall.
A woman comes in seeking help with her newly purchased pistol that was having problems. One of the older guys upstairs takes it and looks at it then starts berating her on how dirty it was and no wonder it wouldn't work. He was really being down right mean to her while she was trying to explain the problem and the fact that she had just shot it a little bit that morning.
Their shop sucks and is not at all freindly like the old Guns and Gear store was.
Next time I need something I think I will try Bullseye instead. And no, I don't know anybody from Bullseye or anything like that. He just appears to be a standup guy.
Thank you.

busarich
11-10-2008, 5:14 PM
Yeah i will not be back there.

10TH AMENDMENT
11-13-2008, 2:20 PM
It was probably a sealed magazine well Bushmaster or FAB10 or an epoxied magazine.

Like I said, it is there prerogative to choose not to sell OLLs, etc. BUT, they are morons for spreading the wrong information about the law and the legality of said items.



Sorry about the gramer error!


Originally Posted by jumbopanda
Fail.

GOTCHA!!!!