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Heavy_Grinder
11-03-2008, 11:26 AM
Anyone use motor oil as an effective lube on their rifles. My Father who served proudly in the USMC (circa late 70s early 80's) told me that he used motor oil as an effective lube on his M16 way back when.

Until I hear otherwise, the mobil 1 will stay in the garage for now.

CHS
11-03-2008, 11:32 AM
There's nothing wrong with using motor oils as lubricant. Most firearms lubricants are just repackaged industrial lubricants and marked up 1000%.

According to:
http://www.grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html , ATF is a better choice than motor oil.

trinydex
11-03-2008, 11:44 AM
i use mobil one and clp to soak my lpks before i install them... was thinkin' of repackaging a bottle of clp plus mobile one only for lubing ar during shooting.

there was this thread on ar15.com where someone said motor oils are excellent for firearms because of the heat tolerance that they have.

in my experience though you might not want to leave motor oil in the gun because they tend to get thick and attract dust. but i don't see anything wrong with using motor oil while firing.

Heavy_Grinder
11-03-2008, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the replies.

On our last shooting session, my ol' man shot my M4gery for the first time and after a couple of rounds, he asked why my rifle smelled like roses (the CLP). He then told me to ditch the new school crap and use motor oil from now on. :D

CHS
11-03-2008, 11:54 AM
i use mobil one and clp to soak my lpks before i install them... was thinkin' of repackaging a bottle of clp plus mobile one only for lubing ar during shooting.


Just a clarification, you MIX the CLP and Mobile 1?

50/50? 60/40? 70/30?

5hundo
11-03-2008, 12:01 PM
I used ATF to de-gunk my Krag barrel. It worked great...

I have to say that I've never used "motor oil" specifically. Break Free has always been a good product that I trust, so I gladly pay a little bit more for it.

I will confess, though, that I use red Moly grease on my Garand instead of the G.I. "pot" grease...

Beelzy
11-03-2008, 12:28 PM
I have used motor oil on my m1919. The stuff works splendidly.

I would rather use it than some of the watered down lubes currently marketed
as wonder lubes.

InsightsBest
11-03-2008, 12:32 PM
In my tank I use one gallon of mineral spirits with 2 quarts of Automatic transmission fluid it works great and doesent leave it sticky for build up but leaves it lubed!! trust me on this one !!!

M. Sage
11-03-2008, 12:44 PM
Motor oil is designed to lubricate by flowing. It's not meant to just lubricate sitting between two parts.

Engine bearing surfaces are smooth and flat, and the oil actively is flowing through them to keep them lubricated. Low oil flow will cause bearing failures because the motor oil is designed to keep the parts away from each other by "floating" them as it flows past. Kind of like your crankshaft is water skiing on the journals inside the main bearings.

Motor oil will probably work "ok", but there should be better lube options out there, IMO.

I used ATF to de-gunk my Krag barrel. It worked great...

I have to say that I've never used "motor oil" specifically. Break Free has always been a good product that I trust, so I gladly pay a little bit more for it.

I will confess, though, that I use red Moly grease on my Garand instead of the G.I. "pot" grease...

I use moly grease for pretty much anything that requires grease. Molybenum disulfide is a great lubricant.

If I had an AR, I'd be down for stripping the finish off the bolt carrier and baking moly disulfide on instead, possibly do the same with the inside of the upper.

trinydex
11-03-2008, 12:49 PM
Just a clarification, you MIX the CLP and Mobile 1?

50/50? 60/40? 70/30?

mmm i don't know if there's a magic ratio, but there may have been someone on arfcom that mentioned a ratio.

i just sprayed a lil clp in there to thin it out and make it smell nice :D.

Motor oil is designed to lubricate by flowing. It's not meant to just lubricate sitting between two parts.

Engine bearing surfaces are smooth and flat, and the oil actively is flowing through them to keep them lubricated. Low oil flow will cause bearing failures because the motor oil is designed to keep the parts away from each other by "floating" them as it flows past. Kind of like your crankshaft is water skiing on the journals inside the main bearings.

Motor oil will probably work "ok", but there should be better lube options out there, IMO.

how do other oils work pray tell?

NRAhighpowershooter
11-03-2008, 12:56 PM
I use Penzoil 30wt in my 1919A4 :D

Ledbetter
11-03-2008, 12:58 PM
I agree with M. Sage.

I have used Mobil One for lube and it just doesn't stay put. It tends to flow down with gravity.

Thicker, waxier products are better for long-term storage and lithium grease is much better for lubrication.

MILLITIAof1
11-03-2008, 1:04 PM
whats about something like lucas oil stabilizer? there is no way that crap would run or drip.

trinydex
11-03-2008, 1:21 PM
i use mobil one and clp to soak my lpks before i install them... was thinkin' of repackaging a bottle of clp plus mobile one only for lubing ar during shooting.

there was this thread on ar15.com where someone said motor oils are excellent for firearms because of the heat tolerance that they have.

in my experience though you might not want to leave motor oil in the gun because they tend to get thick and attract dust. but i don't see anything wrong with using motor oil while firing.

i have to add that the original reason i ended up using mobil one was not because of something i read on arfcom but something i read on thr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4509221

if you follow gunslinger's posts, he appears to be a lube engineer or something

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=339348

Blademan21
11-03-2008, 1:26 PM
The fastest way to ruin a M1A is to use motor oil to lube it. The M1 and the M1A were designed to be lubed with grease.You can even use Wal Mart marine bearing grease.I paid to much for my M1A to use oil when grease is what it was designed to be lubed with. You can buy Plastilube/Lubraplate at Napa Auto real cheap.Can't speak for the ARs,don't own one.

MILLITIAof1
11-03-2008, 1:28 PM
The fastest way to ruin a M1A is to use motor oil to lube it. The M1 and the M1A were designed to be lubed with grease.You can even use Wal Mart marine bearing grease.I paid to much for my M1A to use oil when grease is what it was designed to be lubed with. You can buy Plastilube/Lubraplate at Napa Auto real cheap.Can't speak for the ARs,don't own one.
:ban:

Max-the-Silent
11-03-2008, 1:39 PM
Anyone use motor oil as an effective lube on their rifles. My Father who served proudly in the USMC (circa late 70s early 80's) told me that he used motor oil as an effective lube on his M16 way back when.

Until I hear otherwise, the mobil 1 will stay in the garage for now.

You're father was telling the truth. The farther out in the boonies, the less likely you'd have "proper" cleaning and lubricants.

I used motor oil on my 60. It works. It also makes a hell of a mess on the piece, the shooter, and everything nearby when fired. It also has a different smell to it once it gets hot, compared to "proper" lubricant for weapons.

STAGE 2
11-03-2008, 1:58 PM
Caveat 1. Its your gun so you can use whatever makes you happy. I don't care either way.

Caveat 2. Most modern pistols are very tolerant of poor lubrication. Most can even be shot dry with no issues for a moderate amount of time. Because of this, any lube whether its gun oil or bacon grease, will improve performance.


With that said, motor oils and gun oils are not the same. They are formulated for two very different purposes because firearms and engines are two very different animals. An engine is a closed system. Its main cause of failure is heat. It lubricates by throwing constant amounts of fluid at the moving parts. It also is constantly filtered, removing contaminants from the lube. Finally, since it isn't exposed to the elements and is constantly being coated in lube, corrosion isn't a factor.

A gun couldn't be more different. Its an open system. Its main cause of failure is debris, not heat. The lubricant must stay in certian areas, and not run into others. Its not filtered therefore it must maintain lubricity while trapping contaminants. Finally, since a firearm is exposed to the elements corrosion is a major factor.

Therefore, what meets the needs for an engine isn't going to meet the needs for a firearm and vice versa. Thats why gun oils have a different composition and different additives than motor oils.

Will you be able to get by with motor oil, probably if you aren't shooting for extended periods of time, or if you re lube your carry weapon every couple of days. Are you using the optimal oil for your gun, not by a long shot.

And as an addendum, what the military uses isn't usually representative of "the best". The military chooses things based on cost, ease of use, ease of distribution, etc. What is the best for a platoon or an army isn't the best for a private citizen.

Heavy_Grinder
11-03-2008, 2:08 PM
Caveat 1. Its your gun so you can use whatever makes you happy. I don't care either way.

Caveat 2. Most modern pistols are very tolerant of poor lubrication. Most can even be shot dry with no issues for a moderate amount of time. Because of this, any lube whether its gun oil or bacon grease, will improve performance.


With that said, motor oils and gun oils are not the same. They are formulated for two very different purposes because firearms and engines are two very different animals. An engine is a closed system. Its main cause of failure is heat. It lubricates by throwing constant amounts of fluid at the moving parts. It also is constantly filtered, removing contaminants from the lube. Finally, since it isn't exposed to the elements and is constantly being coated in lube, corrosion isn't a factor.

A gun couldn't be more different. Its an open system. Its main cause of failure is debris, not heat. The lubricant must stay in certian areas, and not run into others. Its not filtered therefore it must maintain lubricity while trapping contaminants. Finally, since a firearm is exposed to the elements corrosion is a major factor.

Therefore, what meets the needs for an engine isn't going to meet the needs for a firearm and vice versa. Thats why gun oils have a different composition and different additives than motor oils.

Will you be able to get by with motor oil, probably if you aren't shooting for extended periods of time, or if you re lube your carry weapon every couple of days. Are you using the optimal oil for your gun, not by a long shot.

And as an addendum, what the military uses isn't usually representative of "the best". The military chooses things based on cost, ease of use, ease of distribution, etc. What is the best for a platoon or an army isn't the best for a private citizen.


damn bro, that was deep. I guess that sums it up in a nutshell. ;)

Army
11-03-2008, 2:20 PM
The US military uses the best equipment, at the best cost...just like everyone else. Low bid does not equate low quality.

Use gun oil on guns, leave the car oil in the car.

The reasons are obvious.

M. Sage
11-03-2008, 2:21 PM
how do other oils work pray tell?

They work the same way; they create a bearing between the two parts. However, they're not always dependent on being pumped through the space in those two parts in order to do so. Motor oil is (now more than ever) designed - literally - to float parts by being continuously pumped between them.

I'll admit that the pressures and temperatures involved in an engine are much higher, making it more necessary there.

If you want to know how motor oil works, this guy has an excellent write up. It actually changed a bit of how I think about motor oil: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

If I was going to use an automotive oil for firearms, I'd use gear oil. It smells like crap, but it's thicker and more likely to stay put, and is engineered for use in splash-lubricated applications. ATF works well in splash-lube settings, too, but is quite thin.

You're father was telling the truth. The farther out in the boonies, the less likely you'd have "proper" cleaning and lubricants.

I used motor oil on my 60. It works. It also makes a hell of a mess on the piece, the shooter, and everything nearby when fired. It also has a different smell to it once it gets hot, compared to "proper" lubricant for weapons.

Just because it's field-expedient doesn't mean it's better or even right. I've made auto "fixes" on the side of the road that I'd never dream of doing in the shop under any circumstances. Does that mean I should start fixing cars like that in the shop, too?

Use the right stuff when you've got it. If you can't get the right stuff, use something lesser.

trinydex
11-03-2008, 2:29 PM
Caveat 1. Its your gun so you can use whatever makes you happy. I don't care either way.

Caveat 2. Most modern pistols are very tolerant of poor lubrication. Most can even be shot dry with no issues for a moderate amount of time. Because of this, any lube whether its gun oil or bacon grease, will improve performance.


With that said, motor oils and gun oils are not the same. They are formulated for two very different purposes because firearms and engines are two very different animals. An engine is a closed system. Its main cause of failure is heat. It lubricates by throwing constant amounts of fluid at the moving parts. It also is constantly filtered, removing contaminants from the lube. Finally, since it isn't exposed to the elements and is constantly being coated in lube, corrosion isn't a factor.

A gun couldn't be more different. Its an open system. Its main cause of failure is debris, not heat. The lubricant must stay in certian areas, and not run into others. Its not filtered therefore it must maintain lubricity while trapping contaminants. Finally, since a firearm is exposed to the elements corrosion is a major factor.

Therefore, what meets the needs for an engine isn't going to meet the needs for a firearm and vice versa. Thats why gun oils have a different composition and different additives than motor oils.

Will you be able to get by with motor oil, probably if you aren't shooting for extended periods of time, or if you re lube your carry weapon every couple of days. Are you using the optimal oil for your gun, not by a long shot.

And as an addendum, what the military uses isn't usually representative of "the best". The military chooses things based on cost, ease of use, ease of distribution, etc. What is the best for a platoon or an army isn't the best for a private citizen.

i really have to call into question some of the reasonings here...

if a gun could have a system that filtered, sealed and ciruclated the lubrication... would that be bad?

so how does one draw the conclusion: just because the lubrication system in a motor is "better" means the lubricant isn't as good?

also how does the wonder gun lube trap contaminants and stay viscous? wouldn't it be in the same way that any engineered lubricant would seek to trap contaminants and stay viscous? i think my motor oil traps QUITE a bit of carbon (that's why when i change my oil it's black)... it still manages to stay pretty slippy especially when things get hot.

lastly when we talk about optimal... it really is quite subjective. are we talkin' about optimal cost? optimal time consumption? optimal performance?

there's plenty of debates on arfcom about grease vs oil... are we gonna have one of those in this thread too?

i'm not suggesting that motor oil = pwnzall. i'm just wondering where people draw these conclusions from....

trinydex
11-03-2008, 2:37 PM
They work the same way; they create a bearing between the two parts. However, they're not always dependent on being pumped through the space in those two parts in order to do so. Motor oil is (now more than ever) designed - literally - to float parts by being continuously pumped between them.

I'll admit that the pressures and temperatures involved in an engine are much higher, making it more necessary there.

If you want to know how motor oil works, this guy has an excellent write up. It actually changed a bit of how I think about motor oil: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

If I was going to use an automotive oil for firearms, I'd use gear oil. It smells like crap, but it's thicker and more likely to stay put, and is engineered for use in splash-lubricated applications. ATF works well in splash-lube settings, too, but is quite thin.



i guess i asked my question because i'm wondering why it sounded like you were saying motor oil acting or engineered to act the way it does is a bad thing... following up by saying it wouldn't work well in a gun.

when i look at the gun and the motor i see many similaries. the fuel fouls from combustion. the metal on metal parts need to be lubricated to stay cool. heat is a large factor in wear and material stress.

the only parts that are different about the two systems are the open and closed lubricaton pathways right? so maybe the gun lubes have some more additives that prevent corrosion. this was already mentioned in the thread that i posted above.

thefurball
11-03-2008, 2:41 PM
Um, sure, motor oil is "oil" and will lubricate any number of things.

I had a customer running 10/40WT in his vacuum pump. It worked, but it certainly wasn't optimal.

My concern would be that if cleaning isn't frequent and regular crud and gunge may tend to build up.

Blademan21
11-03-2008, 3:07 PM
:ban:


LOL..that is funny. Are your serious? If not, you forgot the :D. If you are,WTF.

STAGE 2
11-03-2008, 3:34 PM
The US military uses the best equipment, at the best cost...just like everyone else. Low bid does not equate low quality.

They use the best military equipment there is. However military equipment is not necessarily the best there is. If you've worn an alice pack for any length of time you'll know what I mean.

A better example though is CLP. The optimal thing for your gun is to have a general cleaning solvent, a bore cleaner, and a dedicated lubricant. However that means the soldier needs to carry 3 bottles. With CLP, there is just one bottle. It won't clean a bore as well as a dedicated bore cleaner and it won't lube as well as a pure lube, but it does the job of all three well enough.

STAGE 2
11-03-2008, 3:48 PM
if a gun could have a system that filtered, sealed and ciruclated the lubrication... would that be bad?

I don't know but I sure wouldn't want to carry it since it would weigh a ton. The bottom line is that firearms dont, so speculating about it is irrelevant.


so how does one draw the conclusion: just because the lubrication system in a motor is "better" means the lubricant isn't as good?

That wasn't the conclusion that was drawn at all. An engine isn't better or worse, it is just different.

also how does the wonder gun lube trap contaminants and stay viscous? wouldn't it be in the same way that any engineered lubricant would seek to trap contaminants and stay viscous? i think my motor oil traps QUITE a bit of carbon (that's why when i change my oil it's black)... it still manages to stay pretty slippy especially when things get hot.

Carbon deposits from your engine aren't "trapped" in the oil so much as they simply are pushed around by the continual flow. The oil pump keeps circulation going and the fouling eventually makes it way to the filter. A good comparison would be a broom pushing dirt around. Eventually it finds the dustpan i.e. the oil filter. Remove the oil filter and guess how long your engine will run. The same with your oil pump. If your engine stops throwing massive amounts of oil at critical areas, then its game over.

Gun oil does trap contaminants and maintain its lubricity primarily because that is exactly what it is designed to do. An engine has quarts upon quarts of oil to satisfy its lubrication needs. A gun will have several drops. These drops have to stay in place. Thats why its usually thicker and contains different additives. There will be no filtration and there isn't a continual supply of fresh oil.


lastly when we talk about optimal... it really is quite subjective. are we talkin' about optimal cost? optimal time consumption? optimal performance?

Optimal performance. You can run a ferarri on 87 but its not going to perform as well as if you had put premium in it.


there's plenty of debates on arfcom about grease vs oil... are we gonna have one of those in this thread too?

No because that is weapon specific. Certian weapons are designed for grease, others oil.

Mail Clerk
11-03-2008, 4:01 PM
i use mobil one and clp to soak my lpks before i install them... was thinkin' of repackaging a bottle of clp plus mobile one only for lubing ar during shooting.

there was this thread on ar15.com where someone said motor oils are excellent for firearms because of the heat tolerance that they have.

in my experience though you might not want to leave motor oil in the gun because they tend to get thick and attract dust. but i don't see anything wrong with using motor oil while firing.

I've heard about people using Mobil 1 as a rifle lube too. It appears to be a economical way since for the price/quart is allot.

Mail Clerk

Capt. Speirs
11-03-2008, 4:01 PM
30 years in the auto repair business and I would not use motor oil for a lubricant in my firearms. Engine oil is designed to force to parts in close proximity apart and float on this pressurized surface. Yes it tolerates heat, but has no HP (high pressure) rating, this means if the oil pressure drops, the two metal surfaces are instantaneously going to force the oil out and without lubrication, seize! You need a lubricant that can withstand heat and high pressure. Teflon based lubricants should work fine, because they leave a coating behind.

Now having said that, I think (my opinion) that any synthetic motor oil may very well work since it is designed to leaves a coating incase of loss of pressure, but for how long it lasts remains to be seen. In WWII the Germans invented synthetic oil for their jet engines and when the allies took the formulas at the end of the war and started experimenting with them they quickly discovered an unknown side affect. If the engine suddenly lost pressure the parts would not seize immediately. In Vietnam we put synthetic motor oil in front line supply vehicles that were often targeted with weak mines that only destroyed the engine area so the supplies could fall into enemy hands. However, with the synthetic oil and usually only the oil pan was destroyed the engine continued to run for many miles out of the enemies reach. Eventually they did seize though.

trinydex
11-03-2008, 4:18 PM
I don't know but I sure wouldn't want to carry it since it would weigh a ton. The bottom line is that firearms dont, so speculating about it is irrelevant.

That wasn't the conclusion that was drawn at all. An engine isn't better or worse, it is just different.
my points were not about the engine or gun being a superior lubrication system, it's obvious that the engine's system is better. the point was only that lubricants still have to act as lubricants, whether they're in an idealized "closed" system or a not so ideal "open" system.



Carbon deposits from your engine aren't "trapped" in the oil so much as they simply are pushed around by the continual flow. The oil pump keeps circulation going and the fouling eventually makes it way to the filter. A good comparison would be a broom pushing dirt around. Eventually it finds the dustpan i.e. the oil filter. Remove the oil filter and guess how long your engine will run. The same with your oil pump. If your engine stops throwing massive amounts of oil at critical areas, then its game over.

when was the last time you opened up the filter and found it full of carbon? the filter is there to filter out metals and other particulates isn't it? the carbon is definitely suspended in the oil. once again, that's why it's black when you change it.


Gun oil does trap contaminants and maintain its lubricity primarily because that is exactly what it is designed to do. An engine has quarts upon quarts of oil to satisfy its lubrication needs. A gun will have several drops. These drops have to stay in place. Thats why its usually thicker and contains different additives. There will be no filtration and there isn't a continual supply of fresh oil.

i don't understand where i can safely jump to the conclusion that motor oil doesn't do the same ("trap contaminants and maintain its lubricity primarily because that is exactly what it is designed to do"). i also don't understand when and how motor oils couldn't be obtained in the "proper" viscocity.

motor oil doesn't have to be filtered to work properly... the filter is a property of the motor's system, not the lubricant's system. it only needs to be filtered when you're running it in a motor that will fail to maintain cylinder pressure if contaminants cut up the piston rings. if i put it on your kitchen floor it'll slip trip and put you on your but just the same as any other lubricant... if i am building the a crate motor and i oil the rings... do they suddenly NOT lubricate the cylinder and allow the pistons to be worked by hand JUST because the oil pump and filter aren't around?

so let's focus on its PROPERties. does it perform well under heat? can it be had in the proper viscocity? does it burn off? does it lubricate and protect metals? does it have enough anti corrosive additives? etc.


Optimal performance. You can run a ferarri on 87 but its not going to perform as well as if you had put premium in it.

i'm shocked that you'd use this example... because you had such a better example earlier in regards to Army's comments. CLP is a COMPROMISE, you said it yourself... so it's optimized for convenience. once again... optimal is subjective.

trinydex
11-03-2008, 4:22 PM
30 years in the auto repair business and I would not use motor oil for a lubricant in my firearms. Engine oil is designed to force to parts in close proximity apart and float on this pressurized surface.

i have to ask once again... what do other lubes do that is so different from this scenario... what's wrong with floating your bolt inside the receiver so it doesn't rub? what is so bad about floating the wear components so they run with less friction? you guys keep citing this like it's a bad thing... like this engineering that goes into car lubricants is somehow so fundamentally different to any other type of lubrication. i don't get it.

do you have to have oil pressure to float those components? no because those components are not floated by that pressure.

why do engines seize? heat. why do the oil pumps have to keep turning? because if you stop the cooling flow of oil, then you get increased heat. heat then leads to catastrophic failure of material in some form or another.

but make no mistake. there is no difference in what lubrications do in any application. they all seek to reduce heat generation, they all work as coolant, they all seek to reduce friction. same game. i don't know why everyone thinks it's different.

Capt. Speirs
11-03-2008, 4:45 PM
i have to ask once again... what do other lubes do that is so different from this scenario... what's wrong with floating your bolt inside the receiver so it doesn't rub? what is so bad about floating the wear components so they run with less friction? you guys keep citing this like it's a bad thing... like this engineering that goes into car lubricants is somehow so fundamentally different to any other type of lubrication. i don't get it.

do you have to have oil pressure to float those components? no because those components are not floated by that pressure.

why do engines seize? heat. why do the oil pumps have to keep turning? because if you stop the cooling flow of oil, then you get increased heat. heat then leads to catastrophic failure of material in some form or another.

but make no mistake. there is no difference in what lubrications do in any application. they all seek to reduce heat generation, they all work as coolant, they all seek to reduce friction. same game. i don't know why everyone thinks it's different.

HP factor, my friend. If a lubricant does not have a HP rating it can be forced out to a point of dry fit. Car differentials have no pump, no cooling, just a very high HP rated lubricant and it is thick so it sticks.

DrjonesUSA
11-03-2008, 4:46 PM
Not sure if it is true, but I have read that some modern motor oils have detergents in them that can cause damage to the finish of your firearm.

I don't know about you, but I have paid a lot of money for most of my guns, so a few extra bucks for some quality CLP or other REAL gun oil is more than worth the money spent.

I say use the right tool for the job and buy some quality gun lubricant.

TMC
11-03-2008, 4:51 PM
Been using Mobil-1 in all my guns for years, 1911, AR's, shotguns, no visable wear, no function problems, no finish damage. Oil is oil.

Capt. Speirs
11-03-2008, 4:57 PM
Been using Mobil-1 in all my guns for years, 1911, AR's, shotguns, no visable wear, no function problems, no finish damage. Oil is oil.

Good to know, so it seems the synthetic lasts in a firearm. How many rounds between cleanings?

trinydex
11-03-2008, 5:08 PM
Not sure if it is true, but I have read that some modern motor oils have detergents in them that can cause damage to the finish of your firearm.

I don't know about you, but I have paid a lot of money for most of my guns, so a few extra bucks for some quality CLP or other REAL gun oil is more than worth the money spent.

I say use the right tool for the job and buy some quality gun lubricant.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4191902&postcount=25

GuyW
11-03-2008, 5:17 PM
The fastest way to ruin a M1A is to use motor oil to lube it. The M1 and the M1A were designed to be lubed with grease.

Using oil instead of grease is the #1 way to bend the operating rod of an M1 Garand...

.

STAGE 2
11-03-2008, 8:02 PM
my points were not about the engine or gun being a superior lubrication system, it's obvious that the engine's system is better. the point was only that lubricants still have to act as lubricants, whether they're in an idealized "closed" system or a not so ideal "open" system.

And helmets still have to act as helmets so a football helmet will protect your head just as well as a DOT approved motorcycle helmet if you crash on a bike right?

Wrong. If this logic worked, then we could use the same oil in our engines, our trannys, our differentials, our guns, any anything else. But we don't because different applications require different lubrication.

when was the last time you opened up the filter and found it full of carbon? the filter is there to filter out metals and other particulates isn't it? the carbon is definitely suspended in the oil. once again, that's why it's black when you change it.

Last time I opened up a filter. It is true that oil filters are there to filter out particulates, however they are not there for a certian type of particulate, but a certian size. Filters are rated in microns and depending on the quality, will filter out any particle larger than the rating. This will remove some of the debris but not all.


i don't understand where i can safely jump to the conclusion that motor oil doesn't do the same ("trap contaminants and maintain its lubricity primarily because that is exactly what it is designed to do"). i also don't understand when and how motor oils couldn't be obtained in the "proper" viscocity.

Because you are oversimplifying the problem. Viscosity isn't the end all be all of firearm lubrication. It is only one of many factors. You are making the argument that because all oils lubricate then motor oil should suffice. Well on some level you are correct, and I already addressed this in one of the caveats that I made where I said that any oil is better than no oil.

This isn't the same as having proper oil. Again, motor is DESIGNED to work in filtered systems. Motor oil is DESIGNED to constantly flow and splash around. Evaporation isn't a concern with motor oil. Neither is corrosion.

This is why there is such a difference. Gun oil will stay put. Gun oil won't evaporate in a matter of days. Gun oil will function better when dirty.



motor oil doesn't have to be filtered to work properly... the filter is a property of the motor's system, not the lubricant's system. it only needs to be filtered when you're running it in a motor that will fail to maintain cylinder pressure if contaminants cut up the piston rings.

Give me a break. The filter is there because the engine wouldn't work if it wasn't. If you don't believe me, take whatever car you own, bypass the filter, run it for 5K and tell me how its running if you reach that far. While you're at it, remove the oil pump since firearms don't have one either.



if i put it on your kitchen floor it'll slip trip and put you on your but just the same as any other lubricant... if i am building the a crate motor and i oil the rings... do they suddenly NOT lubricate the cylinder and allow the pistons to be worked by hand JUST because the oil pump and filter aren't around?

I already addressed this, but if you want to play this logic game, I can cycle the slide of any semi auto by hand as many times as I want without lube, so firearms shouldn't need any lube at all right?



so let's focus on its PROPERties. does it perform well under heat? can it be had in the proper viscocity? does it burn off? does it lubricate and protect metals? does it have enough anti corrosive additives? etc.

And in most all of these categories, gun oil works better.


i'm shocked that you'd use this example... because you had such a better example earlier in regards to Army's comments. CLP is a COMPROMISE, you said it yourself... so it's optimized for convenience. once again... optimal is subjective.

No optimal is not subjective. Convenience is never optimal, its a compromise. Thats what clp is. Instead of being the best at anything it is fair at everything.

akjunkie
11-03-2008, 8:37 PM
anyone ever used Zep 45 with Teflon to lube their firearms?

i've used BreakFree, Hoppes gun oil and Zep 45 to lube my
Sword/knife collection.

what i notice is:
Gun oil is "thick" but still drips with Gravity.
the Zep 45 literally Stuck on the Metal without any Dripping.

and BreakFree, well its a CLP and does 3 things.


but i've never used Zep 45 on any of my firearms.

superhondaz50
11-03-2008, 8:42 PM
30WT works good in a 1919 :D

Dragon
11-03-2008, 8:50 PM
whats about something like lucas oil stabilizer? there is no way that crap would run or drip.

Works great when building race engines!

Dragon
11-03-2008, 9:04 PM
They work the same way; they create a bearing between the two parts. However, they're not always dependent on being pumped through the space in those two parts in order to do so. Motor oil is (now more than ever) designed - literally - to float parts by being continuously pumped between them.

I'll admit that the pressures and temperatures involved in an engine are much higher, making it more necessary there.

If you want to know how motor oil works, this guy has an excellent write up. It actually changed a bit of how I think about motor oil: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

If I was going to use an automotive oil for firearms, I'd use gear oil. It smells like crap, but it's thicker and more likely to stay put, and is engineered for use in splash-lubricated applications. ATF works well in splash-lube settings, too, but is quite thin.



Just because it's field-expedient doesn't mean it's better or even right. I've made auto "fixes" on the side of the road that I'd never dream of doing in the shop under any circumstances. Does that mean I should start fixing cars like that in the shop, too?

Use the right stuff when you've got it. If you can't get the right stuff, use something lesser.

ATF is more of a solvent than a lub

M. Sage
11-03-2008, 9:09 PM
i guess i asked my question because i'm wondering why it sounded like you were saying motor oil acting or engineered to act the way it does is a bad thing... following up by saying it wouldn't work well in a gun.

when i look at the gun and the motor i see many similaries. the fuel fouls from combustion. the metal on metal parts need to be lubricated to stay cool. heat is a large factor in wear and material stress.

the only parts that are different about the two systems are the open and closed lubricaton pathways right? so maybe the gun lubes have some more additives that prevent corrosion. this was already mentioned in the thread that i posted above.

I've torn guns and engines apart and put them back together. I've repaired both, and there really aren't many similarities.

Look, I'm not saying it won't work, and I'm not saying it won't even work well. I'm just saying it probably won't work as well. Engine oils have additive packages designed to take advantage of being pumped between bearings. The description Spiers gave is totally accurate in how it works in an engine.

Engine oil isn't engineers to "float" a bolt carrier inside a receiver. It's designed to keep crankshafts and camshafts (and other parts) floating on a pressurized cushion off of bearings.

Modern engine oils have less and less high pressure wear additives. Every new oil designation is a lower high pressure content. This is why I suggest grease or gear oil.

There are very few places where an engine actually relies on splash or immersion to keep parts lubricated. Cam to follower/lifter is one, and more and more companies are doing away with flat tappets and going roller. Piston skirts are another, and you're seeing more and more long-term coatings going on those... and both of those applications are relatively low-pressure applications. As far as cam lobes and lifters or followers, the finish is so high, you could almost run them without oil for extended periods.. and you often do; a cold start-up can leave your valve train dry for as much as a minute.

To sum up, will motor oil work for lubricating a gun? Most of the time, yes. Will it work as well as a lube designed to do the job? Probably not.

ATF is more of a solvent than a lub

It's not much of a solvent. It has higher detergent content than engine oil, but it does well in high pressure applications. There are many manual transmissions that actually call for ATF, and the gearsets in automatics aren't exactly a low-pressure application. The best lube they get is a stream of ATF squirted out of the main shaft and out into the gearset to splash around in the gears and bearings.

TMC
11-03-2008, 9:09 PM
Good to know, so it seems the synthetic lasts in a firearm. How many rounds between cleanings?

On my SV 1911 normally every 200-300. I shoot a match almost every weekend which is about 100-150 and then 200+/- in practice during the week. I'll given the gun a quick clean and oil prior to the next match but sometimes it will go two weeks between cleanings. Cleaning for me is take the top end apart, wipe down the exterior of the barrel, brush the feed ramp clean, run a rag covered screw driver down the rails and wipe the breeckface clean. Re-oil and assemble.

Glocks I barely clean, just field strip, wipe down the trigger area with a rag and wipe the feed ramp. Then I just put a couple drops on the slide rails and reassemble.

My AR about 200-300 before cleaning.

weezil_boi
11-03-2008, 9:15 PM
This is a cool thread. I use all the fancy crap on my ARs, savageand hand guns. But my AKs, mosins, mauser, shotguns and marlin 22s... I use.......

Wheel bearing grese from walmart dilueted in 2 stroke motor oil. And, it works great for me. I come home and clean em up. I never relube at the range ( unless its an AR that is). I have an old pickle jar that I filled half way up with the oil, and I just kept adding the grease until it got kinda mcuky looking and would "stick" to the glass wall of the jar.

The grease was like one dollar about 10 years ago and the 2 stroke was what ever left over from my jetski. I could easily have a gallon of this stuff for like $10.

I have run alot of ammo through these guys. Now, Im not talking torture tests, but 50 or so rds in the bolt actions at a time. Hundred or two in the AKs, and maybe ywo or three hundred in the 22s... never with a problem or signs of wear that would concern me. I will admit, that once in awhile, I'll clean em up with some remoil. No reason why, just easy to spray on i guess. My oil-mix is usually applied with this crazy little curved plastic syringe I got back when I had my wisom teeth pulled :)
So far it workin for me. But I only seem to use it on my cheaper or more rugged rifles.

Hmmm, is it right? ... Maybe not.
Does it work well? ... definately.
Would something else work better? ... probably.
Do I care? .... nope :)

trinydex
11-03-2008, 10:29 PM
And helmets still have to act as helmets so a football helmet will protect your head just as well as a DOT approved motorcycle helmet if you crash on a bike right?

Wrong. If this logic worked, then we could use the same oil in our engines, our trannys, our differentials, our guns, any anything else. But we don't because different applications require different lubrication.

see now we're getting somewhere, you said dot approved that's a specification, i already mentioned specifications of course... but hte problem is i'm the only one that provided any other information pointing at specifications.

now your turn. where does it say motor oil isn't the right specification to use in the environment that guns find themselves operated in? the threads i posted had someone who seemed very knowledgeable citing very specific specifications... i've yet to see anyone rebuke him with anymore than, guns are guns and engines are engines. let's see the spec sheets. who's a chem e here?


Last time I opened up a filter. It is true that oil filters are there to filter out particulates, however they are not there for a certian type of particulate, but a certian size. Filters are rated in microns and depending on the quality, will filter out any particle larger than the rating. This will remove some of the debris but not all.


are the particulates bigger in engines or in guns? and WHAT pray tell does EITHER do to "suspend them" besides modify viscosity? i just want to know, becuase if there is a magic spec that is the index of suspension for a specific fluid, i needa know that information so i can parrot it on the internet!


Because you are oversimplifying the problem. Viscosity isn't the end all be all of firearm lubrication. It is only one of many factors. You are making the argument that because all oils lubricate then motor oil should suffice. Well on some level you are correct, and I already addressed this in one of the caveats that I made where I said that any oil is better than no oil.

i only want to know the caveats and the specialness in gun lubes that somehow addresses those and you have to know the name of that additive right? or the spec? or the engineered factor? or are we just assuming?


This isn't the same as having proper oil. Again, motor is DESIGNED to work in filtered systems. Motor oil is DESIGNED to constantly flow and splash around. Evaporation isn't a concern with motor oil. Neither is corrosion.

i'll have to beg to differ. the oiling system was designed for the engine, not the other way around. the motor has a very specific requirement. it's a contant heat generator, if you don't constantly remove, attentuate and prevent the heat then you will get catastrophic material failure. the gun doesn't need as much (some do, like water cooled machine guns. oddly enough this isn't bad parallel as both are cylinders pushing thermodynamic pistons).


This is why there is such a difference. Gun oil will stay put. Gun oil won't evaporate in a matter of days. Gun oil will function better when dirty.

does motor oil evaporate? how does gun oil stay put? is it thicker? or...



Give me a break. The filter is there because the engine wouldn't work if it wasn't. If you don't believe me, take whatever car you own, bypass the filter, run it for 5K and tell me how its running if you reach that far. While you're at it, remove the oil pump since firearms don't have one either.

if a gun had as many cycles as an engine, it'd need a filter too. so you're still not seeing my point huh? which factor of the gun lube makes it gun lube?


I already addressed this, but if you want to play this logic game, I can cycle the slide of any semi auto by hand as many times as I want without lube, so firearms shouldn't need any lube at all right?

are you trying to say that the lube is only for the firing of the round? so it's only there to prevent and lube in the case of fouling and combustion heat?

i'd say it's there to lube the motion, reduce heat even without the firing of the round, fouling of the friction surfaces. you can run a slide by hand for a long time but it'll wear. you know as soon as you put some lube in, it'll cycle so much smoother.

stag6.8
11-03-2008, 11:23 PM
I wanted to know if anybody tried SILICONE based lubricants(SLICK 50 or silicone based motorcycle chain oil). It appears that would work especially for the barrel cause of the coating. If I could get more answers on this, I`d use it.

STAGE 2
11-04-2008, 12:14 AM
see now we're getting somewhere, you said dot approved that's a specification, i already mentioned specifications of course... but hte problem is i'm the only one that provided any other information pointing at specifications.

now your turn. where does it say motor oil isn't the right specification to use in the environment that guns find themselves operated in?

Thats a fallacious argument. Manufacturers don't list their products for what they AREN'T to be used for. They do list their products for what they ARE to be used for.

the threads i posted had someone who seemed very knowledgeable citing very specific specifications... i've yet to see anyone rebuke him with anymore than, guns are guns and engines are engines. let's see the spec sheets. who's a chem e here?

Ok, well how about a gunsmith. You won't find the top builders like Bruce Gray or Ted Yost recommending motor oil. Instructors like Larry Vickers and Clint Smith don't go down that road either. And why not? Is it because they have some stock in "gun oil"? Or is it because know what works and what doesn't over hundreds of thousands of rounds of experience.



i only want to know the caveats and the specialness in gun lubes that somehow addresses those and you have to know the name of that additive right? or the spec? or the engineered factor? or are we just assuming?

Not assuming anything. I've talked to many people who are far more intelligent on this issue than I am, including some people that are responsible for creating some of the gun products that are used today. The composition is different. The additives are different. For example, there have been many threads on many boards that illustrate the poor performance of motor oil in protecting against corrosion.


i'll have to beg to differ. the oiling system was designed for the engine, not the other way around. the motor has a very specific requirement. it's a contant heat generator, if you don't constantly remove, attentuate and prevent the heat then you will get catastrophic material failure. the gun doesn't need as much (some do, like water cooled machine guns. oddly enough this isn't bad parallel as both are cylinders pushing thermodynamic pistons).

Again, thats pure baloney. If an engine didn't need filtration, merely cooling, then we would have slapped on large oil coolers and been done with it long ago. Filtration doesn't do anything to lessen the heat. The quantity of oil, the constant circulation, and the oil coolers do that.


does motor oil evaporate? how does gun oil stay put? is it thicker? or...

Dries out, runs off, phrase it however you like. If you don't believe me then test it yourself. And yes, gun oil is usually thicker than motor oil, especially synthetics. Furthermore when it does dry out (depending on the particular oil), it leaves a film that provides a dry lubrication.


if a gun had as many cycles as an engine, it'd need a filter too. so you're still not seeing my point huh? which factor of the gun lube makes it gun lube?

You still keep beating a dead horse. The composition and additives separate gun lube from motor oil.


are you trying to say that the lube is only for the firing of the round? so it's only there to prevent and lube in the case of fouling and combustion heat?

No, I was merely pointing out yet another flaw in your logic.

Like I said from the beginning, its your gun so you can use whatever you like. It makes no nevermind to me. I just think its ridiculous for people who are trying to cheap out on proper lubrication to try to have their cake and eat it too. If you buy a quart because you are pinching pennies, just admit it. There isn't any shame in it. Just like the biker who won't ever need his helmet if he doesn't crash, most recreational shooters won't likely see the need for proper gun oil. This, however does not change the fact that there IS a difference. And some of us dont believe on cheaping out on the one thing that may possibly save our lives.


There is always going to be some internet whiz who thinks they know better. I'm going to thrown my lot in with the gunsmiths and professional shooters and instructors who see hundreds of thousands of rounds every year. And don't forget the military. If motor oil was just as good I've no doubt that they would have issued that since they already buy it.

trinydex
11-04-2008, 12:42 AM
Thats a fallacious argument. Manufacturers don't list their products for what they AREN'T to be used for. They do list their products for what they ARE to be used for.

you still haven't given me any specs, any properties, any solid numbers, indexes, coefficients or anything that sets gun oil apart from motor oil. i'm not asking for DOT to tell you not to use it in guns. i'm asking if you look at the specs for the oil... what sets motor oil apart from gun oil? which factors are engineered into gun oil that make it soooo magically different from motor oil? you're having the worst time addressing this and i'm wondering if you even understand what i'm saying. you say you're trying to address my flaws in logic when that's expressly what i had set out to do at the very start of this.


Ok, well how about a gunsmith. You won't find the top builders like Bruce Gray or Ted Yost recommending motor oil. Instructors like Larry Vickers and Clint Smith don't go down that road either. And why not? Is it because they have some stock in "gun oil"? Or is it because know what works and what doesn't over hundreds of thousands of rounds of experience.


this is pure anecdote... there is no analysis of properties or anything here. there are billions of flies that eat **** every year, perhaps i should eat **** too. logic anyone? leaps in reasoning much?


Not assuming anything. I've talked to many people who are far more intelligent on this issue than I am, including some people that are responsible for creating some of the gun products that are used today. The composition is different. The additives are different. For example, there have been many threads on many boards that illustrate the poor performance of motor oil in protecting against corrosion.

great. awesome. we've isolated one key property that is different between the two. now is this a property of lubricating or is it a property of a protectant? i'm ok with any answer but we're getting somewhere now.



Again, thats pure baloney. If an engine didn't need filtration, merely cooling, then we would have slapped on large oil coolers and been done with it long ago. Filtration doesn't do anything to lessen the heat. The quantity of oil, the constant circulation, and the oil coolers do that.

ok i worded my response to you poorly. i was merely saying that the oiling SYSTEM is engineered for the MOTOR, not the motor is engineered for the oiling system. the filter exists because you need to filter out particulates so they don't hurt tight tolerance interfaces. the pumping and ciculation system exists for the heat (the rest of the engineered system).



Dries out, runs off, phrase it however you like. If you don't believe me then test it yourself. And yes, gun oil is usually thicker than motor oil, especially synthetics. Furthermore when it does dry out (depending on the particular oil), it leaves a film that provides a dry lubrication.

this flies on the same plane as the grease vs oil debate... you told me we wouldn't have one of those :p


You still keep beating a dead horse. The composition and additives separate gun lube from motor oil.

so far you've given me two differences, viscocity (which i'll contest) and anticorosion (which i already conceded earlier). any others?



i'm not vying for anything. i just want information and i refuse to just assume. i'm just pursuing the truth and i want to see logical progression to conclusion for whoever is proposing the truth.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277053&page=2

how odd you did not quote this thread... where you've replied and someone else with data has also...

seems as a lube CLP does better because the cleaning agent helps the lubrication ingrediant pentrate better. the lubrication agent being similar to or the same as mobil 1 of various vintages.

akjunkie
11-04-2008, 8:21 AM
anyone tried Refrigerant oil? it has a nice Viscosity to it.

motorhead
11-04-2008, 9:07 AM
for ak breakin i use synthetic brake caliper grease. hi temp stuff for that sticky g2 hammer. cool purple color too.

yellowfin
11-04-2008, 10:08 AM
I recently read an article on high volume shooting in Argentina where shotguns used for several hundred rounds a day each were cleaned with diesel fuel as a solvent which when wiped clean doubled as a lubricant. How about that?

STAGE 2
11-04-2008, 10:33 AM
you still haven't given me any specs, any properties, any solid numbers, indexes, coefficients or anything that sets gun oil apart from motor oil. i'm not asking for DOT to tell you not to use it in guns. i'm asking if you look at the specs for the oil... what sets motor oil apart from gun oil? which factors are engineered into gun oil that make it soooo magically different from motor oil? you're having the worst time addressing this and i'm wondering if you even understand what i'm saying. you say you're trying to address my flaws in logic when that's expressly what i had set out to do at the very start of this.

And once again I've already addressed this. You simply refuse to recognize it. Motor oil has detergents, anti foaming agents and other additives such as zddp that are needed because of the nature of engines. Gun oil has none of these additives, but has additives of its own such as corrosion inhibitors and chemicals which leave a protective layer of film.

Most importantly, the nature of the two oils is markedly different. Motor oil is designed to flow and be carried to areas that need lubrication. Gun oil is the exact opposite. Its is not designed to flow. It is designed to stay put.


this is pure anecdote... there is no analysis of properties or anything here. there are billions of flies that eat **** every year, perhaps i should eat **** too. logic anyone? leaps in reasoning much?

I see, so we shouldn't talk to engine builders about what works well and what doesn't? Give me a break. :rolleyes: These are the people who know what lubricants work well and what lubricants fail because of their experience. Chemical properties only go so far. Real world testing is the most dispositive factor, and the people who know firearms aren't using motor oil.


great. awesome. we've isolated one key property that is different between the two. now is this a property of lubricating or is it a property of a protectant? i'm ok with any answer but we're getting somewhere now.

Protectant. But this is just one of several factors that separate the two.



ok i worded my response to you poorly. i was merely saying that the oiling SYSTEM is engineered for the MOTOR, not the motor is engineered for the oiling system. the filter exists because you need to filter out particulates so they don't hurt tight tolerance interfaces. the pumping and ciculation system exists for the heat (the rest of the engineered system).

But you still miss the point. Motor oils, synthetics especially have been evolving for decades and they have been formulated specifically for engines. What you could purchase 20 years ago is drastically different than what is on shelves today. Oils have been modified to keep pace with engines. What worked for an old pushrod v8 isn't what is going to cut it for newer dohc engines. The point here is that motor oils are specifically formulated for engines. They aren't a general lubricant. Because they are an oil they will probably work in a pinch, but they are by no means the best thing you can use.




this flies on the same plane as the grease vs oil debate... you told me we wouldn't have one of those :p

No it doesn't and it seemed you deliberately ignored my point. On a carry weapon, gun oil will last longer than motor oil. And given a quality oil, it will continue to provide a level of lubrication when it has dried. Thats another very important distinction which has nothing to do with viscosity.


so far you've given me two differences, viscocity (which i'll contest) and anticorosion (which i already conceded earlier). any others?

There isn't anything to contest about viscosity. Like I said you don't need to be a chemical engineer to figure this stuff out. Apply some gun oil and apply some motor oil and watch the result. One is going to stay put and one is going to run around (much like it was formulated to do).



i'm not vying for anything. i just want information and i refuse to just assume. i'm just pursuing the truth and i want to see logical progression to conclusion for whoever is proposing the truth.

I'm not asking you to assume, I'm asking you to listen to a little bit of logic, the experiences of people much more knowledgable than you or I, and TO TEST IT FOR YOURSELF.



how odd you did not quote this thread... where you've replied and someone else with data has also...

seems as a lube CLP does better because the cleaning agent helps the lubrication ingrediant pentrate better. the lubrication agent being similar to or the same as mobil 1 of various vintages.


There isn't anything odd about it primarily because John didn't list any "data" as you stated. He merely was giving his personal experiences.

I am glad you brought this up however because it makes my point. You seem to take him at his word when he says CLP lubes better than mobile 1. CLP isn't regarded as a high end lube. Its merely a clp. Most folks would classify it as average to above average. So if a lube like CLP performs better than mobile 1, then shouldn't a high end lube like weaponshield or fp-10 (which an overwhelming majority of gun owners consider noticeably superior to CLP) be better than mobile 1. The answer of course is obvious.

So, to sum it up, I'll defer to my learned brethern over at TFL....

"Will motor oils work as gun oil with no problems? SURE!

Are they the best option? No, you can certainly do better."

Capt. Speirs
11-04-2008, 12:28 PM
On my SV 1911 normally every 200-300. I shoot a match almost every weekend which is about 100-150 and then 200+/- in practice during the week. I'll given the gun a quick clean and oil prior to the next match but sometimes it will go two weeks between cleanings. Cleaning for me is take the top end apart, wipe down the exterior of the barrel, brush the feed ramp clean, run a rag covered screw driver down the rails and wipe the breeckface clean. Re-oil and assemble.

Glocks I barely clean, just field strip, wipe down the trigger area with a rag and wipe the feed ramp. Then I just put a couple drops on the slide rails and reassemble.

My AR about 200-300 before cleaning.

Last time I shot a 223 I went through 1000 rounds, I 'll stick with what the gun manufacturer recommends.

trinydex
11-04-2008, 12:53 PM
And once again I've already addressed this. You simply refuse to recognize it. Motor oil has detergents, anti foaming agents and other additives such as zddp that are needed because of the nature of engines. Gun oil has none of these additives, but has additives of its own such as corrosion inhibitors and chemicals which leave a protective layer of film.


you'll have to pardon me if i'm wrong, but this is the first time you've mentioned detergents, antifoaming agents and other additives specifically... thanks, that then makes more sense than cars = cars guns = guns.


I see, so we shouldn't talk to engine builders about what works well and what doesn't? Give me a break. :rolleyes: These are the people who know what lubricants work well and what lubricants fail because of their experience. Chemical properties only go so far. Real world testing is the most dispositive factor, and the people who know firearms aren't using motor oil.

no i don't think you should just say this and this builder uses this hooray. i also would hope if they're convincing your to use a certain type of gun oil they're not just saying guns = guns cars = cars.


Protectant. But this is just one of several factors that separate the two.

any more factors/properties?


But you still miss the point. Motor oils, synthetics especially have been evolving for decades and they have been formulated specifically for engines. What you could purchase 20 years ago is drastically different than what is on shelves today. Oils have been modified to keep pace with engines. What worked for an old pushrod v8 isn't what is going to cut it for newer dohc engines. The point here is that motor oils are specifically formulated for engines. They aren't a general lubricant. Because they are an oil they will probably work in a pinch, but they are by no means the best thing you can use.

and my point in the beginning was so what if it's formulated for cars? especially if it works. aside from viscosity (which it can be had in other viscocities) and being a protectant (which motor oil does not claim to be), what makes motor oil so bad? and in fact it's not so bad.



No it doesn't and it seemed you deliberately ignored my point. On a carry weapon, gun oil will last longer than motor oil. And given a quality oil, it will continue to provide a level of lubrication when it has dried. Thats another very important distinction which has nothing to do with viscosity.

you have just missed my underlying point. you can say gun oil is better than motor oil because of runniness. i can say grease is better than gun oil because of runniness.... and this argument goes where?

so what is the main ingrediant in cLp ?? the L part? is it the same thing that's in mobile 1? because that throws a wrench in the "give a quality oil" thing.


There isn't anything to contest about viscosity. Like I said you don't need to be a chemical engineer to figure this stuff out. Apply some gun oil and apply some motor oil and watch the result. One is going to stay put and one is going to run around (much like it was formulated to do).

so you can't get mobile 1 in teh same consistency as clp? and i have to wonder what consistency the clp in the spray can is.


There isn't anything odd about it primarily because John didn't list any "data" as you stated. He merely was giving his personal experiences.

he cited properties and made connections about those properties. he didn't make associations based on naming and background industry or anecdote.


I am glad you brought this up however because it makes my point. You seem to take him at his word when he says CLP lubes better than mobile 1. CLP isn't regarded as a high end lube. Its merely a clp. Most folks would classify it as average to above average. So if a lube like CLP performs better than mobile 1, then shouldn't a high end lube like weaponshield or fp-10 (which an overwhelming majority of gun owners consider noticeably superior to CLP) be better than mobile 1. The answer of course is obvious.


the only reason why i got into this thread was because i wanted to use mobile 1 only as a throw away lubricant. squirting a lot of it into the bolt carrier area during shooting to keep things wet. i can clean with brake cleaner (to break up carbon) and protect with something else like clp.

when you started saying things that suggested motor oil just has not the right lubricating properties... eh anyway. whatever.

STAGE 2
11-04-2008, 2:54 PM
you'll have to pardon me if i'm wrong, but this is the first time you've mentioned detergents, antifoaming agents and other additives specifically... thanks, that then makes more sense than cars = cars guns = guns.

Why on earth would that make more sense now. Motor oil is formulated for engines, gun oil is formulated for guns. Thats no different that what I've been saying all along.


no i don't think you should just say this and this builder uses this hooray. i also would hope if they're convincing your to use a certain type of gun oil they're not just saying guns = guns cars = cars.

But that not what I said. I said that top gunsmiths and instructors don't recommend motor oil as a lube. These are the folks that are going to know what works and what doesn't. Therefore their advise is extremely valuable. Again, I challenge you to see for yourself. Head over to sigfoum and talk to bruce gray. He will tell you about all of the worn frame rails he's seen from improper lubrication including folks that use motor oil.


and my point in the beginning was so what if it's formulated for cars? especially if it works. aside from viscosity (which it can be had in other viscocities) and being a protectant (which motor oil does not claim to be), what makes motor oil so bad? and in fact it's not so bad.

Again, you are misquoting me. I haven't said motor oil is "so bad". I've not said that its going to destroy your gun. I'll remind you once again that I started this off with the statement that motor oil will probably work for most people without any issues.

What I DID say is that motor oil is not anywhere as good as gun oil for lubricating your firearm.



you have just missed my underlying point. you can say gun oil is better than motor oil because of runniness. i can say grease is better than gun oil because of runniness.... and this argument goes where?

Well as I said before, it depends on the firearm. Certain weapons were designed to use grease. The garand for example. Others are more preference oriented. Still others have such tight tolerances that grease would bind. However overall its not relevant because you will run into the same problem. Do you use any old grease, or firearms grease.


so what is the main ingrediant in cLp ?? the L part? is it the same thing that's in mobile 1? because that throws a wrench in the "give a quality oil" thing.

I have no idea.



so you can't get mobile 1 in teh same consistency as clp? and i have to wonder what consistency the clp in the spray can is.

I don't know, but I doubt it. Even if you could, I'm willing to bet that clp as well as other gun oils have additives that increase adhesion.


he cited properties and made connections about those properties. he didn't make associations based on naming and background industry or anecdote.

And so have I. Motor oil doesn't stay put. Motor oil dries out much faster. Apparently thats not data in your eyes.



the only reason why i got into this thread was because i wanted to use mobile 1 only as a throw away lubricant. squirting a lot of it into the bolt carrier area during shooting to keep things wet. i can clean with brake cleaner (to break up carbon) and protect with something else like clp.

when you started saying things that suggested motor oil just has not the right lubricating properties... eh anyway. whatever.


Use whatever you want. Its your rifle. If you're not doing any extended shooting you'll probably be fine. However your statement is very telling. With a proper lube you wouldn't need to "squirt a lot of oil into the bolt carrier area during shooting to keep things wet". Lubed once in the beginning with a proper gun oil should last you the entire range session and should stay wet in all the right areas.

trinydex
11-04-2008, 3:27 PM
Why on earth would that make more sense now. Motor oil is formulated for engines, gun oil is formulated for guns. Thats no different that what I've been saying all along.
in your world it must just be ok to say something without stating why. when i asked why you said it's because it's made for guns becuase it's made for cars. is that actually an answer? once you start actually stating why how many properties did you come up with that were lacking in motor oil? go ahead and list 'em, more than the two so far if you can find more... i've been waiting for a few pages of quotequotequotequotequote.


What I DID say is that motor oil is not anywhere as good as gun oil for lubricating your firearm.

so you're only going to compare lubricating properties then. so if the cLp's L is the same as mobile 1's principle ingrediant as alleged in that other thread... then how do explain this dicrepancy in reasoning? you could say immediately that in that same thread someone said the C in clp helps the L. i still find it a leap to say it's not ANYWHERE as good... but this is your opinion, you can have that.


I don't know, but I doubt it. Even if you could, I'm willing to bet that clp as well as other gun oils have additives that increase adhesion.

anyone else know?


And so have I. Motor oil doesn't stay put. Motor oil dries out much faster. Apparently thats not data in your eyes.

i'm wonder what dries out faster means. i'm wondering how it could dry out faster if the principle ingrediant in mobile 1 and cLp are the same.


Use whatever you want. Its your rifle. If you're not doing any extended shooting you'll probably be fine. However your statement is very telling. With a proper lube you wouldn't need to "squirt a lot of oil into the bolt carrier area during shooting to keep things wet". Lubed once in the beginning with a proper gun oil should last you the entire range session and should stay wet in all the right areas.

hey hey, i'm only goin' by what "others who know much more than me" have said and that i've read from them. :D

bwiese
11-04-2008, 4:11 PM
I buy/use CLP on my ARs. I prefer to be close to what Uncle Sugar uses.

I'll be using grease on my M1A (as appropriate).

I use CLP on my pistols/handguns.

Just because some redneck in Hickville is too cheap/impoverished/ unknowledgeable such that he uses the wrong lube on his gun and lucked out with light duty occasional use does not mean it's remotely recommended.

trinydex
11-04-2008, 5:08 PM
that only begs the question is the L in clp the same as mobile 1's principle ingredient.

if it is then what does anyone have to say against it?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=291494&page=2

some more information about the L in clp

anticorrosion additives in clp once again make the difference when using as protectant.

odysseus
11-04-2008, 5:15 PM
Wow this thread has some legs, I GOTTA add in now.

My general standard is CLP for most all my firearms. That is in coating, even base general cleaning, and storage. I then do use some Tetra grease and oil in places as required. You don't need much, a bottle goes a LONG way.

On motor oil, I gotta put in that I would use in a pinch or if nothing is around. I will concur about someone posting about the spray when shooting and it running everywhere. Motor oil is not engineered to coat and stay in place that well. There is no need to get too caught up in this, it isn't terrible, but is inferior to task engineered lubricants specialized for firearms.

.

STAGE 2
11-04-2008, 6:53 PM
Just because some redneck in Hickville is too cheap/impoverished/ unknowledgeable such that he uses the wrong lube on his gun and lucked out with light duty occasional use does not mean it's remotely recommended.

That about sums it up.