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X-NewYawker
11-02-2008, 5:19 PM
A friend is building two SHTF rifles and he says that having an instantly removeable magazine is more important to him than the gun looking like a "real" M-4. he wants to use U-15s. I know some competitors who swear by them. Any members here use them?

fr0ng
11-02-2008, 5:35 PM
b-15

3GunFunShooter
11-02-2008, 5:44 PM
I have both my AR rifles set up with a U-15, I feel you have more control over the grip than with a Monster Man. I also want to be able to instantly remove magazines. I use one for 3 gun the other is for home defense.

VegasND
11-02-2008, 5:46 PM
b-15
Huh? You mean this:
http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/photo_galleries/aaf_wwii_vol_vi/Photos/00910460_132.jpg

X-NewYawker
11-02-2008, 5:53 PM
My buddy tried my BB guns this weekend and HATED them -- he wants to go into the streets with a chest webbing of loaded mags -- not fumbling around in the flames and smoke for a tiny button -- and the guys who tell me, "just switch it out -- in a real SHTF scenario -- one may get to the gun just before the crowds get to your house. When are you going to swap out the mag release?

This all makes the M1-A and even Mini-14 look like good ideas

X-NewYawker
11-02-2008, 5:53 PM
This WOULD make a GREAT SHTF weapon!

Huh? You mean this:
http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/photo_galleries/aaf_wwii_vol_vi/Photos/00910460_132.jpg

Frijolito1988
11-02-2008, 5:57 PM
the b15

In CA is just like a bullet button BUT it has an allen wrench key so when you go out of state you can just use an allen wrench and it will be like a normal detachable magazines... :)

schmud0811
11-02-2008, 5:59 PM
use the prince 50 an throw away the set screw in the SHTF senario

Crazed_SS
11-02-2008, 6:03 PM
My buddy tried my BB guns this weekend and HATED them -- he wants to go into the streets with a chest webbing of loaded mags -- not fumbling around in the flames and smoke for a tiny button -- and the guys who tell me, "just switch it out -- in a real SHTF scenario -- one may get to the gun just before the crowds get to your house. When are you going to swap out the mag release?

This all makes the M1-A and even Mini-14 look like good ideas

Tell him to get a M1A scout. The only issue with the M1A is the cost of the mags. The quality 10-rounders go for 40 bucks.

I usually think talk of SHTF rifles is silly, but if I had to choose one for SHTF, I'd go with my M1 Garand instead of my M1A .. I only have two M1A mags because they cost so damn much.

The garand is decently accurate, reliable, hits hard, and it's very unassuming. The 8-round en-bloc clips are cheap as hell and you can carry a bunch of them slung over your shoulder in a bandolier.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/crazed1x/gats/IMG_2694.jpg

oddball
11-02-2008, 6:06 PM
A Monsterman grip and fixed buttstock build is a great alternative.
I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who have both Monsterman and B-15 builds in their quiver ;).

rrr70
11-02-2008, 6:09 PM
This WOULD make a GREAT SHTF weapon!

No it won't.

But this plane would.:D
http://www.tangischools.org/schools/phs/think/man/tibbets.jpg

MadMax
11-02-2008, 6:17 PM
If the guy hates the bullet button go with a U-15. It is ugly as hell but functional as hell. The mmg is a good alternative and looks a bit better then the U-15 but isn't as controllable.

bak
11-02-2008, 6:31 PM
No it won't.

But this plane would.:D
http://www.tangischools.org/schools/phs/think/man/tibbets.jpg


Actually I think it did. ;o)

Fjold
11-02-2008, 6:40 PM
If the guy hates the bullet button go with a U-15. It is ugly as hell but functional as hell. The mmg is a good alternative and looks a bit better then the U-15 but isn't as controllable.


That's because the Monster Man grip was built for carrying not for shooting, the ergonomics are wrong.

SJgunguy24
11-02-2008, 6:44 PM
I just finished my NNG build on Friday, I shot it today. Not bad, I would rather have a pistol grip but for me the mag is more important.

nobs11
11-02-2008, 7:06 PM
That's because the Monster Man grip was built for carrying not for shooting, the ergonomics are wrong.

Huh? I shoot with the MMG all the time. Although I'm not a competition shooter, I'm able to group pretty well offhand and kneeling. I'm comfortable with it and to me it is no different than a non PG gun. Also with the MMG, you can use a standard buttstock and stick lead weights in there, which you can't with the U15.

I'd like to try the U15 though and compare the two. Planning on getting one for my next build. The BB is just dumb for any gun that you actually want to use.

aplinker
11-02-2008, 7:21 PM
That's because the Monster Man grip was built for carrying not for shooting, the ergonomics are wrong.

MMG works well. The hardest thing is reloads and 1-handed firing.

If you balance the rifle to the rear, things improve.

ersatz
11-02-2008, 7:47 PM
People are going a bit over the top with these SHTF scenarios. If it were really to occur I'm sure a 30rd clip would find it's way into the lower one way or another.

The question is, can you have a BB installed and then fab a device with a small protrusion or nub that wraps over your finger. Then you simply place the fingertip over the BB and the protrusion would release the device. Technically this still requires a tool so it should be compliant. And I'm not talking a SHTF situation, just in general.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
11-02-2008, 7:50 PM
I have a U-15, I like it. If you ever run out of loaded 30-rd mags, you can use it as a club!

Srsly tho, I like it, and I can roll detachable.

chsk9
11-02-2008, 8:00 PM
I'm going to put on my flame resistant suit after I post this....
What about the new model NRA Mini14? Reliable. Accurate for this purpose (unless you get pinned down by gophers at 300 yards). Good mags available.
ok I'm going to duck now...

nobs11
11-02-2008, 8:04 PM
I'm going to put on my flame resistant suit after I post this....
What about the new model NRA Mini14? Reliable. Accurate for this purpose (unless you get pinned down by gophers at 300 yards). Good mags available.
ok I'm going to duck now...

I don't disagree. The Mini is a good SHTF rifle. Not a target gun, but it will work.

ironcross
11-02-2008, 8:05 PM
If hes got preban high caps then the MMG/U-15 style would be the way to go.

But

If he doesnt I would go with the B-15 Bullet Button. It has SHTF mode in less than 5secs.

http://www.riflegear.com/images/product/medium/354_2_.jpg

X-NewYawker
11-02-2008, 8:07 PM
If hes got preban high caps then the MMG/U-15 style would be the way to go.

But

If he doesnt I would go with the B-15 Bullet Button. It has SHTF mode in less than 5secs.

http://www.riflegear.com/images/product/medium/354_2_.jpg

looks like the thing that helps the dog walk up onto the bed.

nobs11
11-02-2008, 8:08 PM
If he doesnt I would go with the B-15 Bullet Button. It has SHTF mode in less than 5secs.


Since we are playing with hypotheticals here.

SHTF and you undo the screw on that B-15 and shoot at a bunch of people. Cops arrive and take away your gun. When order is restored you go to jail for having an illegal AW. With a MMG or U-15 you are always operating within the bounds of the law. It may or may not matter.

Artery
11-02-2008, 8:14 PM
People are going a bit over the top with these SHTF scenarios. If it were really to occur I'm sure a 30rd clip would find it's way into the lower one way or another.

The question is, can you have a BB installed and then fab a device with a small protrusion or nub that wraps over your finger. Then you simply place the fingertip over the BB and the protrusion would release the device. Technically this still requires a tool so it should be compliant. And I'm not talking a SHTF situation, just in general.

Seems to me like such a device would get in the way of trigger control.

FWIW I find that I can change a BB AR15 mag faster than an M1A mag, or at least more repeatably. I've owned several M1As, M14s, and an M21, and I find the magazine release and insertion absolutely abysmal. The mags don't click in vertically like they do in an AR, and they don't fall to the floor when released. Don't know if you've ever reloaded an M1A, its an awkward angled push up/pull back maneuver thats especially difficult when you're trying to change magazines quickly. 10rd M1A mags are even more difficult to load than 20rd ones because you have less leverage. In my opinion the Garand's En Bloc clips are much easier to load than the box magazines of the M1A, likely due to the fact that the M1A is among other things a Garand modified to accept a box mag.

X-NewYawker
11-02-2008, 8:23 PM
Since we are playing with hypotheticals here.

SHTF and you undo the screw on that B-15 and shoot at a bunch of people. Cops arrive and take away your gun. When order is restored you go to jail for having an illegal AW. With a MMG or U-15 you are always operating within the bounds of the law. It may or may not matter.

That's right! When the smoke clears, you will be cleared (if its a righteous shoot) but disable your prince 50 and make an Aw, and you make a felony.

dchang0
11-02-2008, 9:43 PM
Since we are playing with hypotheticals here.

SHTF and you undo the screw on that B-15 and shoot at a bunch of people. Cops arrive and take away your gun. When order is restored you go to jail for having an illegal AW. With a MMG or U-15 you are always operating within the bounds of the law. It may or may not matter.

Yeah, but couldn't he just re-tighten the set screw to turn it back into a fully-legal configuration by the time the cops show up (a few days later)?

stag6.8
11-02-2008, 10:59 PM
Yeah, but couldn't he just re-tighten the set screw to turn it back into a fully-legal configuration by the time the cops show up (a few days later)?

yes he could...but he must really ask himself....do he truly want to take a chance on doing that? I woundn`t do it

stag6.8
11-02-2008, 11:14 PM
Since we are playing with hypotheticals here.

SHTF and you undo the screw on that B-15 and shoot at a bunch of people. Cops arrive and take away your gun. When order is restored you go to jail for having an illegal AW. With a MMG or U-15 you are always operating within the bounds of the law. It may or may not matter.

I strongly agree....If you use the the mmg or u-15(the u-15 I have) you dont have to worry about breaking the law when order is restored.....if you take off your b-15 and you LOSE IT....or you FORGET to retighten your prince 50 and you`re CAUGHT (crap does happen) you`ve commited a felony.....yes the looks of the mmg and u-15 is an aquired taste....but....I go for form and function not looks......also if all you have is 10 round mags....the mmg/u-15 setup is still your best bet

hawk81
11-03-2008, 3:07 AM
If SHTF you will not have to worry about mag locks or monster man grips. There will be no laws.

hitman13
11-03-2008, 3:48 AM
If SHTF you will not have to worry about mag locks or monster man grips. There will be no laws.

x2!

X-NewYawker
11-03-2008, 7:37 AM
If SHTF you will not have to worry about mag locks or monster man grips. There will be no laws.

I live near Los Angeles where the SHTF for fires, earthquakes and bad jury decisions. Can't always count on society collapsing, and law disappearing.
There's always a "next morning."

Fjold
11-03-2008, 7:42 AM
Huh? I shoot with the MMG all the time. Although I'm not a competition shooter, I'm able to group pretty well offhand and kneeling. I'm comfortable with it and to me it is no different than a non PG gun. Also with the MMG, you can use a standard buttstock and stick lead weights in there, which you can't with the U15.

I'd like to try the U15 though and compare the two. Planning on getting one for my next build. The BB is just dumb for any gun that you actually want to use.


That's because you're bending your wrist to fit the MM. Hold your right hand up like you are shooting a rifle. Do you see how vertical your grip is. That's the natural position of your wrist and hand. Compare this to the angle of the MM Grip and you can see that the grip is designed incorrectly.

When we pointed it out to the manufacturer he acknowledged it but pointed out that a steeper angle on the grip (like the regular pistol grip) pinched his finger when he was carrying it, so it was re-designed to prevent this.

motorhead
11-03-2008, 9:06 AM
if the S really does HTF, who cares about gun laws? i can swap my mmg for a real pg in minutes. i have many loaded 30s in pouches in the closet so i won't have to take time to load.

X-NewYawker
11-03-2008, 9:36 AM
if the S really does HTF, who cares about gun laws? i can swap my mmg for a real pg in minutes. i have many loaded 30s in pouches in the closet so i won't have to take time to load.

Yeah? When you yank that grip off make sure that little detent spring don't get lost of you'll be crawling around on the floor trying to find it while the F get H with S

:)

a1fabweld
11-03-2008, 9:45 AM
use the prince 50 an throw away the set screw in the SHTF senario

+10000000.

technique
11-03-2008, 11:46 AM
The U-15 is a bit heavy. To me it seems like its made of wood and coated in truck bed liner. I prefer to use the MMG for detachable builds.

U-15 $200+

MMG $40+

both do the same.


+100 to the MMG

Paratus et Vigilans
11-03-2008, 12:39 PM
Threads like this just kill me. What do some of you people realy think it would be like in a SHTF world? Worrying about whether or not you've turned your BB build into an illegal AW, when there are dozens of your shooting victims piled up in your front yard with flies buzzing everywhere around the corpses and the stench of death reeking from your property?

Get real! If there are any LEO's left to come around after the SHTF, it's going to be days or weeks or even months after the fact, and the first question is NOT going to be whether or not your rifle is CA compliant. Besides, after you explain all the dead bodies (or the graves, if it's been long enough) in your front yard, you're first going to have to explain the condition of all the illegal AW's you took off their corpses after you killed them. Or are you only expecting your property to be stormed by rioters/zombies armed with fully CA compliant weapons?

Honestly. :rolleyes:

As for the speed of reloading with a BB build, practice makes perfect. I can reload my BB builds as fast as I can my MMG build. It's not hard. And then there are my two Prince50 builds, that could be adapted to the times within seconds of the SHTF. Why not just keep a fully built out fully funtioning lower around for the SHTF and stop worrying about it? You can only shoot one rifle at a time anyway.

BTW, I also concur that reloading a BB build AR-15 is way faster than doing a mag change on an M1A/M14. Then again, practice . . . practice! :)

Clodbuster
11-03-2008, 12:53 PM
Get real?? It's called SHTF....not TEOTWAWKI (that's The End Of World As We Know It)... short of a meteor ending human civilization, or California sliding off into the ocean, California's phone book of laws will withstand an earthquake/flood/ or riot. And backing it up will be it's large force of LEOs and volunteer LEOs from all over the country like the New Orleans Highway Patrol who want to do a little reciprocity for the outstanding jobs the CHPs did for them during Katrina.
And the neighbors who saw you rattling off your AW will be eyewitnesses unless you plan on getting rid of them too.


Clod

Threads like this just kill me. What do some of you people realy think it would be like in a SHTF world? Worrying about whether or not you've turned your BB build into an illegal AW, when there are dozens of your shooting victims piled up in your front yard with flies buzzing everywhere around the corpses and the stench of death reeking from your property?

Get real! If there are any LEO's left to come around after the SHTF, it's going to be days or weeks or even months after the fact, and the first question is NOT going to be whether or not your rifle is CA compliant. Besides, after you explain all the dead bodies (or the graves, if it's been long enough) in your front yard, you're first going to have to explain the condition of all the illegal AW's you took off their corpses after you killed them. Or are you only expecting your property to be stormed by rioters/zombies armed with fully CA compliant weapons?

Honestly. :rolleyes:

As for the speed of reloading with a BB build, practice makes perfect. I can reload my BB builds as fast as I can my MMG build. It's not hard. And then there are my two Prince50 builds, that could be adapted to the times within seconds of the SHTF. Why not just keep a fully built out fully funtioning lower around for the SHTF and stop worrying about it? You can only shoot one rifle at a time anyway.

BTW, I also concur that reloading a BB build AR-15 is way faster than doing a mag change on an M1A/M14. Then again, practice . . . practice! :)

JOEKILLA
11-03-2008, 1:01 PM
U15 works out great for me. I can shoot like I am shooting my M1A.

CHS
11-03-2008, 1:04 PM
As much as I hate these "what if" games, if there is a real and true SHTF scenario, the last thing I'm going to give a damn about is the state AW laws.

If there is a real need, I would gladly break the law to swap my BB out for the original mag release and use 30rd mags.

Paratus et Vigilans
11-03-2008, 1:10 PM
And the neighbors who saw you rattling off your AW will be eyewitnesses unless you plan on getting rid of them too.

I expect my neighbors to be loading fresh mags for me while I defend their unprepared butts! :D

And, while I am well aware of what TEOTWAWKI means and that it is somewhat (but not much) different from when the SHTF, again, I have no expectation of seeing LEO's in my neighborhood for a good long while after an earthquake, flood, riot or other disaster. Frankly, I don't even see the point to swapping out my BB's for standard mag release buttons if there is a SHTF event, but then I probably put in more time getting proficient with the BB than most shooters have done or will do.

Unless one is unlucky enough to live in an urban sewer of a neighborhood (and that lets out New Orleans), I expect that in a SHTF event, the neighbors will come together and pool their talents and resources and defend the neighborhood from thugs and looters, care for the injured, make arrangements for the dead, and formulate a plan of action to get by until some sort of normalcy can be restored to daily life. After all, we're Americans aren't we? That's what Americans do when the SHTF.

If you DO live an an urban sewer of a neighborhood, when the SHTF, may God have mercy on your soul, because you are going to be in for a fight for your life, and whether or not you use a compliant rifle in that fight will be the least of your worries.

M. Sage
11-03-2008, 1:35 PM
MMG vs U15, they're similar, but I prefer the MMG because it allows a much lighter setup. Weight is important to me.

That's because the Monster Man grip was built for carrying not for shooting, the ergonomics are wrong.

How so? I've never had a problem with my MMG rifle's ergonomics when shooting.

As much as I hate these "what if" games, if there is a real and true SHTF scenario, the last thing I'm going to give a damn about is the state AW laws.

If there is a real need, I would gladly break the law to swap my BB out for the original mag release and use 30rd mags.

How are you going to practice fast mag changes, etc. though? If I ever need a go-to rifle for extended periods, I'll leave the MMG on, since I've already developed habits and muscle memory with that configuration.

technique
11-03-2008, 1:37 PM
If you DO live an an urban sewer of a neighborhood, when the SHTF, may God have mercy on your soul, because you are going to be in for a fight for your life, and whether or not you use a compliant rifle in that fight will be the least of your worries.

True!!!! An non compliant firearm is the least of my worries when SHTF.

dchang0
11-03-2008, 3:18 PM
Taking a step back, it's kind of funny that we're even having this sort of discussion about the law and such.

1) First off, the existing gun control laws here in Calif. are absolutely un-Constitutional, and here we are acting as if they are legitimate. Shows how our mindsets have been subdued somewhat already. We should view these laws as an illegitimate intrusion on our true rights, like dogsh-t on our boots and not give it as much elevation/respect as we have so far.

2) It's amazing that gun-control advocates have targeted law-abiding gun owners like us when there are plenty of straight-up criminals out there who have absolutely zero concern for the legality of their stolen/black-market/illegal weapons. Those criminals would be the last people on earth to spend time discussing legality of a bullet button on an internet forum, and they are who we'll be up against in a SHTF scenario.

3) Considering that the federal courts ruled in favor of the New Orleans homeowners who were wrongly disarmed during Katrina and that Americans generally approve of people defending their families in SHTF and home-invasion situations, even if we were to face prosecution at the local level, we could appeal to the Heller decision and fight to win at the federal level. Heller claimed a need to defend himself in his home, and we can do the same with a lot of public sympathy (from the red states, if not the blue).

X-NewYawker
11-03-2008, 3:23 PM
This all reaffirms why we have to vote for McCain tomorrow. Imagine California's stupid gun laws nationwide?

And don't tell me "it can't happen" -- I heard that HERE in the early 1990s...

M. Sage
11-03-2008, 3:27 PM
Taking a step back, it's kind of funny that we're even having this sort of discussion about the law and such.

1) First off, the existing gun control laws here in Calif. are absolutely un-Constitutional, and here we are acting as if they are legitimate. Shows how our mindsets have been subdued somewhat already. We should view these laws as an illegitimate intrusion on our true rights, like dogsh-t on our boots and not give it as much elevation/respect as we have so far.

Yeah, but that unconstitutional stuff will still land you in prison. Are you volunteering to go first?

I do not view it as legitimate, however the threat of prison and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars I don't have to get a conviction reversed forces me to grudgingly follow the "rules" in place.

Then again... if you want to go first, and if you've got the time and money to get this BS overturned, be my guest.

nobs11
11-03-2008, 3:29 PM
1) First off, the existing gun control laws here in Calif. are absolutely un-Constitutional, and here we are acting as if they are legitimate. Shows how our mindsets have been subdued somewhat already. We should view these laws as an illegitimate intrusion on our true rights, like dogsh-t on our boots and not give it as much elevation/respect as we have so far.


Nice sentiment. But say that again when the cops haul you off to jail for possessing an illegal AW when the dust settles down and your wife and kids are bawling. No offense, but breaking the law has consequences, if not for you, for your loved ones.


3) Considering that the federal courts ruled in favor of the New Orleans homeowners who were wrongly disarmed during Katrina and that Americans generally approve of people defending their families in SHTF and home-invasion situations, even if we were to face prosecution at the local level, we could appeal to the Heller decision and fight to win at the federal level. Heller claimed a need to defend himself in his home, and we can do the same with a lot of public sympathy (from the red states, if not the blue).

They people whose rights were restored were legal gun owners. Not people committing felonies.

Clodbuster
11-04-2008, 12:32 PM
Your neighbors are most likely Californians...weened by the government to think that anyone brandishing a military looking rifle is either a cop or a psychotic mass murderer.

Clod



After all, we're Americans aren't we? That's what Americans do when the SHTF.

Paratus et Vigilans
11-04-2008, 3:21 PM
Your neighbors are most likely Californians...weened by the government to think that anyone brandishing a military looking rifle is either a cop or a psychotic mass murderer.

Clod

Actually, I live near a large USMC base and my neighbors often see me packing all my high power gear into and out of the SUV on match days, so they'll probably think I'm a retired Marine (I'm not) and know WTF I'm doing with my EBR's (I do).

:D

zeus45c
11-04-2008, 11:56 PM
I have a U-15. I am able to maintain maximum control over the weapon during mag changes and malfunction drills. It's similar to using a comb stock and that works for me. It does add some heft to the rifle however. If you throw in a railed hand guard, an optic, and a tactical light then the overall weight may be a bit much but with proper training that becomes a moot point...unless you are part of the daily patrol around the neighborhood.

For me SHTF also includes forced entry home burglary. I won't have time to convert anything. Plus pre-bans are my friend :D If anyone wants to try out a U-15 hit me up by IM. We can meet at ASR some time.

m98
11-05-2008, 3:47 AM
If SHTF you will not have to worry about mag locks or monster man grips. There will be no laws.

X10.......in a REAL BAD SHTF, cops will have other things to worry of instead of protecting law abiding citizens....It's ones responsibility to protect themselves and family/friends. Only the weak (people who believes in 100% dail-9-1-1/police& govt. protection) will not survive a SHTF.