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JGarrison
11-02-2008, 3:59 PM
I know this has been discussed here, but I can't find it with a quick search. A buddy of mine is convinced this is illegal and you can be charged with possession even if the gun will only fire in semi. And not just the selector, any full auto part in a semi auto gun is illegal he thinks.

Any links would be helpful, thanks all

AJAX22
11-02-2008, 4:06 PM
Possession of both M16 fire control parts and an AR15 constitute constructive possession of a machine gun.

This has been successfully prosecuted on several occasions.

Don't do it.

They make three position AR15 selectors Safe/Fire/Safe if you want the ability to flip the switch to that happy position legally.

drk421
11-02-2008, 4:24 PM
Stay far away from anything for converting to full auto or any parts for full auto.

For the experience of firing a full auto, go to one of the gun ranges in Las Vegas, you can rent full autos there.

JGarrison
11-02-2008, 4:36 PM
Guys I thought I made it clear, but I'm not wanting to do this at all.

I just did not know you can be convicted of possessing a machine gun if the gun cannot fire in full auto.

SJgunguy24
11-02-2008, 5:01 PM
The ATF says "Once a machine gun,always a machine gun."

Some of the Saiga 7.62's were imported with the 3rd pin installed. The 3rd pin is for the F/A trigger group. That was declared a M.G. and the were all gathered up and destroyed. Other parts were needed to make the Saiga F/A but the ATF dosen't care.

JGarrison
11-02-2008, 5:12 PM
So this letter I found says if it doesn't make the gun fire in full auto it would be lawful. Now I'm confused.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/ab2e6e76.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/boltcarrier2.jpg

freakshow10mm
11-02-2008, 5:22 PM
An M16 selector in an semi auto rifle will allow the weapon to slamfire and go full auto.

When the selector is in the semi-auto position the disconnector catches the hammer and retains it even after holding the trigger fully to the rear.

When the selector is in the full auto position, the disconnector is held back and doesn't hold the hammer. This allows the hammer to follow the bolt carrier and fire again.

The only component that will not make the weapon fire in full auto mode is the full auto bolt carrier, which is what the letter above addressed. Anything in the fire control group will cause the gun to fire full auto, thus is illegal.

I'm going to try and get my wife to hold the camera as I show you the difference between a hammer in the semi switch and the auto switch.

JGarrison
11-02-2008, 5:24 PM
An M16 selector in an semi auto rifle will allow the weapon to slamfire and go full auto.

When the selector is in the semi-auto position the disconnector catches the hammer and retains it even after holding the trigger fully to the rear.

When the selector is in the full auto position, the disconnector is held back and doesn't hold the hammer. This allows the hammer to follow the bolt carrier and fire again.

The only component that will not make the weapon fire in full auto mode is the full auto bolt carrier, which is what the letter above addressed. Anything in the fire control group will cause the gun to fire full auto, thus is illegal.

I'm going to try and get my wife to hold the camera as I show you the difference between a hammer in the semi switch and the auto switch.

Nah nah, don't worry about taking a pic, I understand the point you are making.

freakshow10mm
11-02-2008, 5:29 PM
Well, it's one of the few times my wife agreed to be the camera man for a video so I got it uploading right now.

Telperion
11-02-2008, 5:30 PM
JGarrison: to understand the problem of M16 parts in an AR-15, we need to start with the standard that will be applied -- whether the rifle fires more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger. Then consider that the ATF defines anything that can be "readily convertible" to automatic fire as a machinegun, too.

Each auto FCG part you add moves your rifle closer to something that is readily convertible to full auto, and the technicians in the ATF FTB know all the tricks. They can stuff duct tape and chewing gum in your receiver, and if they get it on tape doing a double slamfire just once, they'll present it as evidence to a jury that you've manufactured a machinegun.

I recall some earlier memos from the ATF about the subject, where they suggested you should avoid having M16 parts because you might "accidentally" combine them in a way that a rifle would fire automatically. Those who could read between the lines understood the accident might be carefully arranged for you by the agents in the FTB.

freakshow10mm
11-02-2008, 5:31 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Guns/th_PB020005.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Guns/?action=view&current=PB020005.flv)

gotgunz
11-02-2008, 7:55 PM
Well that was educational (to me at least, thank you) but I was hoping you were loading a video of live fire.

I for one am disappointed :D

freakshow10mm
11-02-2008, 8:04 PM
I'm a little busy building some full auto toys right now. I'm working on a MAC, Thompson SMG, two M16s, and trying to get my AOW line launched. Might have an Uzi coming in soon if I can raise the funds to get it, then do a conversion on that too.

bwiese
11-02-2008, 8:12 PM
"Constructive possession" cuts a wide swath. Don't own any M16 FCG parts even if uninstalled.

Even with ordinary AR parts, make sure your gun is assembled properly and doesn't 'double'.

But ARs w/ M16 bolt carriers are OK - several well-known mfgrs ship thousands of rifles w/M16 bolt carriers into the civvy market every month.

I also will suggest it's not a great idea to own AR receivers with "US property" markings or the third selector position for auto marked (either 'AUTO' or 3 bullet symbols), etc. Even if FA parts won't fit and/or are not present it just creates extra drama that needs to be refuted in a traffic stop.

freakshow10mm
11-02-2008, 8:35 PM
If that was aimed at me, I'm a 07/02.

For the unprivileged, bwiese's advice is sound. M16 BCG is perfectly fine. Anything in the FCG is just bad ju-ju.

redcliff
11-02-2008, 9:19 PM
I"m curious how the M16 selector cams the AR-15 disconnector out of the way. Isn't that why an M16 disconnector is required on a FA conversion?

freakshow10mm
11-02-2008, 9:34 PM
There's a small spine on the M16 selector.

Riodog
11-02-2008, 9:58 PM
The example was with an Fa hammer. It wouldn't make any difference in the performance unless an auto sear( and other fa parts) was also installed but it would still be detrimental to your freedom. Why push the envelope for no gain?
Rio

Pvt. Cowboy
11-02-2008, 10:01 PM
So this letter I found says if it doesn't make the gun fire in full auto it would be lawful. Now I'm confused.

ATF letters are just opinions. There are all sorts of contradictory opinion letters out there. Please don't go asking for clarification because you'll only be conversing with whatever Mad King Ludwig happens to be opening the letters that day.

redcliff
11-03-2008, 1:55 AM
There's a small spine on the M16 selector.

Yes, which is cammed down by the M16 selector. My point is: How does an M16 selector have any effect on an AR15 disconnector? How would the M16 selector allow the hammer to follow if rotated to the FA position if you have an AR15 disconnector as claimed?

Electric Factory
11-03-2008, 6:52 AM
I'm a little busy building some full auto toys right now. I'm working on a MAC, Thompson SMG, two M16s, and trying to get my AOW line launched. Might have an Uzi coming in soon if I can raise the funds to get it, then do a conversion on that too.

I am so jealous I can barely contain it. The WWII version of the Thompson is now and always has been my fav firearm of all time, I've had the opportunity to shoot one once but owning one as a Californian will probably remain a dream unrealized.

freakshow10mm
11-03-2008, 8:36 AM
$300 for an 80% receiver. $650 for a parts kit. Full auto Thompson SMG for under $1000. Life is good. I wish 922(o) was repealed.

aplinker
11-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Yes, which is cammed down by the M16 selector. My point is: How does an M16 selector have any effect on an AR15 disconnector? How would the M16 selector allow the hammer to follow if rotated to the FA position if you have an AR15 disconnector as claimed?

It's been a while since I was able to handle real internals, but I'm confused as well.

That doesn't look right to me.

An M16 selector shouldn't do that with an AR-15 disconnector.

6172crew
11-03-2008, 1:37 PM
I'd stay away from putting FA parts in your OLL, the JP trigger system has a open back which is close to the m16 trigger. I have a timney system in one of mine and it doubles if you don't hold on tight..

I saw a west hurley 1928a1 for sale in Carson this year, 11.5k. I went with the M16 because of available platforms. This will be my 5th NFA item and probably my last, I will be moving back to CA soon and the toys will stay 2 hours away from me.

shooterdave
11-03-2008, 1:46 PM
if you want to shoot full auto and play with full auto toys join the army! i had to say that! but stay away from auto trigger parts should your ar start doubling or going auto you could be in a heapof trouble.

Army
11-03-2008, 2:43 PM
AR15 disconnect is too short to be engaged by a FA selector.

As for playing with FA arms, there are many places across the nation that will indulge your battle-rattle needs.....not just the US military.

Ironchef
11-03-2008, 3:28 PM
So is it illegal to have the FA marking (three bullets), even if the selector switch doesn't turn to it? Or is it just a potential drama element with an unlearned LEO?

CHS
11-03-2008, 3:44 PM
So is it illegal to have the FA marking (three bullets), even if the selector switch doesn't turn to it? Or is it just a potential drama element with an unlearned LEO?

The lower can have whatever markings it wants. Period.

It can say "Full auto, destructive device, unicorn-eater" and have selector markings for safe, semi, burst, auto, nuclear destruction, and be perfectly legal.

As long as it doesn't actually GO full auto (without the appropriate taxes, paperwork, etc.).

Ironchef
11-03-2008, 3:47 PM
Ok, cool. I thought so. It seems like the OP was asking if it was legal to actually be able to move the selector switch to the FA position, even if it didn't have FA ability. Is that illegal?

bwiese
11-03-2008, 4:18 PM
So is it illegal to have the FA marking (three bullets), even if the selector switch doesn't turn to it? Or is it just a potential drama element with an unlearned LEO?

It's a potential unnecessary drama element.

DOJ's Iggy seized 20 Superior Arms lowers from 10% Firearms in early 2006 because of the (fake) FA 3rd position marking.

There's no need to have items marked "US Property" and with FA markings. We're already pushing the limits well enough, why add drama for BS touches?

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-03-2008, 4:24 PM
Turn in your guns and you won't have this problem.

223Dude
11-04-2008, 12:50 PM
My OLL is a Spikes Tactical lower and has the full-auto marking on it, although the selector cannot physically go there. Great, another thing to worry about when taking it out of my home.

bwiese
11-04-2008, 1:53 PM
My OLL is a Spikes Tactical lower and has the full-auto marking on it, although the selector cannot physically go there. Great, another thing to worry about when taking it out of my home.

Why the hell did you order pne w/that drama-queen 3rd position marking?

This has been a known issue since early 2006.

oaklander
11-04-2008, 2:28 PM
ALSO - for those of you building or buying FALs. . .

Get the SEMI-AUTO selector. It has a cam that keeps if from going all the way to the FA setting.

Most FALs are built on former FA LOWERS, which DO have the FA markings. The semi-auto selector makes it clear(er) that it is not an FA rifle to LE folks.

Of course, the rifle won't fire FA by putting the selector on FA (unless it's an illegal or NFA FA rifle), but again, like Bill said - you do not need the drama.

DPC
11-04-2008, 9:35 PM
Semi Auto AR + Full auto selector = Prison!!!!

223Dude
11-04-2008, 10:02 PM
Man, I was just too excited when I actually found out that a BB would actually get me a real AR, especially after owning a Keltec SU-16A (not that bad). I went straight to the OLL friendly shop in the East Bay and that was the only lower they had at the time. Didn't even think about or see the Auto marking until I got it home. I think I might have to get a new lower soon. Thanks for heads up everyone.

NeoWeird
11-04-2008, 11:48 PM
The selector alone in an AR-15 should not make the gun double or go FA without other M16 FCG parts in it. The AR-15 disconnector tail is too short to be engaged by the selector and it will continue to fall into the ready position and catch the hammer, and hold it, until the trigger is released and the hammer let go to the cocked position at which point semi-auto functioning continues. Same thing goes for the M16 hammer alone - under normal conditions with AR-15 FCG parts it will not function any differently than an AR-15 hammer. There are many old timers that converted surplus M16 parts to semi-auto back in the days before mass commercial vendors and in some cases, such as blowback pistol conversions, an M16 hammer (with bob tail removed of course) is more desireable than the standard AR-15 hammer.

Still, it IS against the law to own both the receiver and the FCG group. It IS also illegal to own the FCG in California at all. So if you DO HAVE to get that selector, hammer, whatever (the rest aren't that different from standard AR parts once modified so there is no point) then do it out of state before you own the receiver.

Plenty of firearms do this; FALs, AKs, HKs, etc. It would be no different than an OLL AK with the military selector; once the semi FCG is placed inside it can NOT function as anything other than a safety. Still, it wouldn't hurt it's functionality for what you want to use it for to grind off the extra tabs and make it a Safe-Semi-Semi selector just to be cautious.

Steve O
11-05-2008, 2:09 AM
How could the rifle go full auto from slam firing from not having the disconnecter engaged?

Doesn't the hammer need a delay for the BCA to lock before the hammer can then be released?

I was under the impression that a auto sear was necessary to allow the BC to lock, then the hammer would be released with its full inertia to ignite the primer?

Army
11-05-2008, 9:41 AM
How could the rifle go full auto from slam firing from not having the disconnecter engaged?

Doesn't the hammer need a delay for the BCA to lock before the hammer can then be released?

I was under the impression that a auto sear was necessary to allow the BC to lock, then the hammer would be released with its full inertia to ignite the primer?

With the trigger fully to the rear, and the disconnect not engaging the hammer, the hammer is free to follow the bolt forward. Just prior to lock-up, the hammer is already pushing the firing pin forward, essentially creating a "fixed" firing pin situation. The inertia and weight of the carrier and bolt, plus the tension from the hammer spring, are enough to ignite the primer................bang!

Army
11-05-2008, 9:45 AM
How could the rifle go full auto from slam firing from not having the disconnecter engaged?

Doesn't the hammer need a delay for the BCA to lock before the hammer can then be released?

I was under the impression that a auto sear was necessary to allow the BC to lock, then the hammer would be released with its full inertia to ignite the primer?

With the trigger fully to the rear, and the disconnect not engaging the hammer, the hammer is free to follow the bolt forward. Just prior to lock-up, the hammer is already pushing the firing pin forward, essentially creating a "fixed" firing pin situation. The inertia and weight of the carrier and bolt, plus the tension from the hammer spring, are enough to ignite the primer................bang!
This is also the cause of the majority of blow-ups with AR systems. Any hang-up the round runs into going into the chamber, can cause the firing pin to contact the primer enough to detonate out of battery.

383green
11-05-2008, 4:12 PM
As I understand it, the auto sear is necessary for the gun to fire full-auto safely and reliably... but unsafe, unreliable FA operation from hammer follow is still enough to get you locked up, even if the gun fires out of battery and/or only goes FA with soft primers and lots of crud in the bolt.

Whiskey84
11-05-2008, 4:43 PM
I'm pretty new to these boards but want to thank all of you for all of this info. It helps when people who know what they're talking about explain the inner workings of these guns...