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ETD1010
11-02-2008, 7:43 AM
Please be kind. :( I searched, but to no avail. I'm working the gun show, and someone came by and asked if a PPT of a C&R is cash and carry at a SHOW... I know it is outside of one, but I NEED to find the penal code that says it's okay.... Any help would be appreciated..... Thanks so much.

~Eric

762cavalier
11-02-2008, 8:09 AM
Sorry Can't cite the penal code as I don't think the penal code addresses gun show sales, but cash and carry of any LONG GUN that is 50 years old or older is legal.If it's legal outside the show it's legal inside the show;)

ETD1010
11-02-2008, 8:24 AM
Thanks for the quick response. I'm just trying to find the code so i can show it to a dealer who doesn't believe me. We'll see what he does when I at least say I've confirmed it with others.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-02-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm just trying to find the code so i can show it to a dealer who doesn't believe me.

Unpapered cash and carry of 50 year old C&R long guns only applies if neither party is a licensed Dealer in California.

Moonclip
11-02-2008, 7:40 PM
Unpapered cash and carry of 50 year old C&R long guns only applies if neither party is a licensed Dealer in California.

What about a non C&R FFL selling a 50yo+ rifle from their personal collection?

Mssr. Eleganté
11-02-2008, 9:06 PM
What about a non C&R FFL selling a 50yo+ rifle from their personal collection?

When you say "a non C&R FFL" do you mean somebody who is not licensed or do you mean an FFL who isn't a C&R FFL?

Moonclip
11-02-2008, 9:22 PM
A "regular" ffl gun dealer, not a C&R ffl holder.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-02-2008, 9:56 PM
Federal law allows Dealers to sell guns "off the books" if the guns are from the Dealer's personal collection and the guns haven't been part of the Dealers inventory for over a year.

But I'm pretty sure that California law doesn't allow Dealers here to use this exemption. Once you are licensed to deal firearms in California then you have to follow the Dealer rules whenever you sell a firearm to any non-Dealer in California, no matter where the firearm comes from.

Moonclip
11-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Federal law allows Dealers to sell guns "off the books" if the guns are from the Dealer's personal collection and the guns haven't been part of the Dealers inventory for over a year.

But I'm pretty sure that California law doesn't allow Dealers here to use this exemption. Once you are licensed to deal firearms in California then you have to follow the Dealer rules whenever you sell a firearm to any non-Dealer in California, no matter where the firearm comes from.

This would be interesting to research.

formerTexan
11-03-2008, 7:57 AM
Its been a long time, but in sometime in the latter part of the '90s, I bought a 1903 at the gun show at the Alameda Fairgrounds in Pleasanton, and it was cash-and-carry at that time.

EOD Guy
11-03-2008, 9:04 AM
Its been a long time, but in sometime in the latter part of the '90s, I bought a 1903 at the gun show at the Alameda Fairgrounds in Pleasanton, and it was cash-and-carry at that time.

The Brady Law changed that. Now all sales by dealers require a background check, unless exempted. In California, this means a DROS and 10 day wait.

rjf
11-04-2008, 8:00 AM
If the seller is not an FFL, a C&R long gun is cash and carry.

Nodda Duma
11-04-2008, 8:17 AM
ok guys, the question isn't very clear, and there's some conflicting / unclear answers here because FFL and C&R are being thrown around like fast balls at a Little League game. Please call out FFL01 and FFL03.

I'm interested to know the answer to what I *think* is the question, but can't figure out what the hell people are trying to say.

-Jason

Mssr. Eleganté
11-04-2008, 7:35 PM
ok guys, the question isn't very clear, and there's some conflicting / unclear answers here because FFL and C&R are being thrown around like fast balls at a Little League game. Please call out FFL01 and FFL03.

I'm interested to know the answer to what I *think* is the question, but can't figure out what the hell people are trying to say.

-Jason

What exectly are you confused about? The post by rjf above your post is the only one that really throws those words around like fastballs. Just ignore rjf's post and you should be good to go.

I argee that the original poster never made it clear if he is talking about a 01 FFL "Dealer" or just an unlicensed guy with a table at the show when he used the word "dealer", but either way we answered the question.

The exemption for C&R long guns that are over 50 years old only applies if neither party is a California Licensed Dealer (a Type 01 FFL in California who has all of the other licenses and certificates required to sell firearms in California.)

monkezuncle
11-04-2008, 8:55 PM
I have to agree with Nodda here... sorry Amend II. And I say that as an FFL03. The question is unclear and the answers have been just vague enough to be confusing.

Please note, that under the original post the poster stated he was "working the gun show" which I am assuming means that he was working a table for a dealer but he himself is not an FFL of any stripe. Further, it sounds like someone came by and asked him this question.

So, let me restate what I think the poster was asking: "Is, at a gun show, in the state of California, is a PPT of a C&R firearm a Cash and Carry transaction".

Here's my best answer, it is a combo of the above info and some add'l scenarios.

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an individual then NO, the sale is not C&C for any type of firearm with the exception of "antique" guns.

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an FFL03 and the firearm is a long gun, over the age of 50 years then yes, it is C&C.

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an FFL 03 and the firearm is a C&R handgun then NO is not C&C.

These scenarios would be the same if the seller were an individual and the buyer were an 03 FFL

If the buyer is an FFL 03 and the firearm is a C&R long gun and the seller is an FFL 03 it would be C&C.

If the buyer is an FFL 03 and firearm is a C&R handgun and the seller is an FFL 03 it would not be C&C. This only applies if the transaction occurs physically in the state of CA. Drive over the border to AZ and you're golden so long as the transaction physically occurs there.

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an FFL 01 it would not be C&C(regardless of the firearm, except "antiques").

Now... here's the tricky one that I have personally debated with 01 FFLs for the last few years...

If the buyer is an 03 FFL and the Seller is an 01 FFL, I contend, and this is true in every other state, that it is a C&C transaction b/c the firearm is being purchased on the 03's license. Not every 01 agrees with me. Personally I think this is one of those murky areas where a clear codified answer won't be found b/c it does not exist. My suggestion is to clearly document the transaction so you can prove good faith and an intent to follow the law. Very similar, in my mind, to an OLL recover situation.

Now, with that said, I do not know any 01's that will sell an 03 a C&R handgun C&C (even though there is a strong argument that they should be able to) w/in California. About a 50/50 chance with a C&R long gun. I will not even touch the CoE issue here (Cert. of Eligibility).

Issues that may also muddy the waters... How an FFL is buying or selling the firearm (on his license or part of his personal collection). Also, tax implications. Not getting into either of those. :)

Hope that helps!

Mssr. Eleganté
11-04-2008, 9:42 PM
Here's my best answer, it is a combo of the above info and some add'l scenarios.

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an individual then NO, the sale is not C&C for any type of firearm with the exception of "antique" guns.

You are wrong. California law says that C&R long guns that are over 50 years old can be transfered between two people in California cash and carry, with no paperwork at all, as long as neither party is a California Licensed Dealer. See California Penal Code, Section 12078(t)(2).

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an FFL03 and the firearm is a long gun, over the age of 50 years then yes, it is C&C.

Correct. But the seller's status as a Type 03 FFL has zero effect on the legality of this kind of transaction in California.


If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an FFL 03 and the firearm is a C&R handgun then NO is not C&C.

Correct. All handgun transfers in California must be processed through a California Licensed Dealer, with the exception of "family" transfers and such.


If the buyer is an FFL 03 and the firearm is a C&R long gun and the seller is an FFL 03 it would be C&C.

The C&R long gun would also have to be at least 50 years old. And the status of the buyer and seller as Type 03 FFL's has zero effect with this type of transaction.

If the buyer is an FFL 03 and firearm is a C&R handgun and the seller is an FFL 03 it would not be C&C. This only applies if the transaction occurs physically in the state of CA. Drive over the border to AZ and you're golden so long as the transaction physically occurs there.

Correct.

If the buyer is an individual and the seller is an FFL 01 it would not be C&C(regardless of the firearm, except "antiques").

Correct.

Now... here's the tricky one that I have personally debated with 01 FFLs for the last few years...

If the buyer is an 03 FFL and the Seller is an 01 FFL, I contend, and this is true in every other state, that it is a C&C transaction b/c the firearm is being purchased on the 03's license. Not every 01 agrees with me. Personally I think this is one of those murky areas where a clear codified answer won't be found b/c it does not exist. My suggestion is to clearly document the transaction so you can prove good faith and an intent to follow the law. Very similar, in my mind, to an OLL recover situation.

You are incorrect. This is clearly codified in California law. If a Type 03 FFL in California acquires a C&R firearm from a California Licensed Dealer then the transaction is processed just as if the Type 03 FFL was not licensed. However, if the Type 03 FFL also has a COE then the 10 day waiting period can be skipped on C&R handguns and C&R long guns. The DROS still has to be completed though.

monkezuncle
11-04-2008, 9:54 PM
Amend II... I sorry... what are your credentials to offer authoritative comments, much less critique me? Are you an FFL? If so which kind and for how long?

I am speaking from direct experience in CA transactions, as well as my understanding, from multiple conversations with the CA DOJ and other FFL's. If you disagree, you're welcome to that opinion. CA gun laws are so screwed up that you can call the DOJ direct 3 times and get 3 different answers. So I can't fault anyone from reading the rules and coming up with a different opinion.

However you're doing other viewers a disservice to critique info when you have not put forth your qualifications to do so. I may be wrong complety... but I can tell you these answers are based on actual transactions that I am aware of or have seen modeled. Do with that as you want..

Mssr. Eleganté
11-04-2008, 10:12 PM
I am speaking from direct experience in CA transactions, as well as my understanding, from multiple conversations with the CA DOJ and other FFL's. If you disagree, you're welcome to that opinion. CA gun laws are so screwed up that you can call the DOJ direct 3 times and get 3 different answers. So I can't fault anyone from reading the rules and coming up with a different opinion.

However you're doing other viewers a disservice to critique info when you have not put forth your qualifications to do so. I may be wrong complety... but I can tell you these answers are based on actual transactions that I am aware of or have seen modeled. Do with that as you want..

You can't base your idea of what is legal on simply witnessing or taking part in a transaction or asking people who are involved in similar transactions. You have to look at the actual law.

I can back up each of my statements with actual text from the California Penal Code. Can you?

ETD1010
11-04-2008, 10:21 PM
"Is, at a gun show, in the state of California, is a PPT of a C&R firearm a Cash and Carry transaction".

yes that was my question :D Thanks for the answers guys!!

monkezuncle
11-04-2008, 10:22 PM
Amend II... I sorry... what are your credentials here... Are you an FFL? If so which kind and for how long? Don't mean that as an attack, I just want to be sure I am not going back and forth with someone who's not 2 short of a 6 pack. :) I've only had my 03 for a couple of years so I know I am not the end all expert on this. But, I have done several trasnations on that liscense and learned, I hope, a thing or two.

I will 1st acknowledge that when we get into specifics, as you did when critiquing my answers, we head into the dark murky world of CA gun laws. CA gun laws are so screwed up that you can call the DOJ direct multiple times and get different answers for the same question (been there, done that, have the shirt). I'll also say that some of the people working there are actually decent people who really are trying to help us. So I can't fault anyone from reading the rules and coming up with a different opinion. However, I am offering an opinion from direct experience in CA transactions, as well as my understanding, from multiple conversations with the CA DOJ and other FFL's as to what the rules are. If you disagree, you're welcome to that opinion as well...but I can tell you these answers are based on actual transactions that I am aware of or have seen modeled. Do with that as you want..

Just as point to show you that your understanding, in my opinion, is a bit too broad, let's take that last scenario. I specifically said I was not addressing CoE scenarios. So it's kinda lame for you to attack my post when I already conceded that issue. As to DROS, that depends on who's license the transaction is taking place on. If the FFL 01 holds the firearm as part of his "business" then yes, it must be DROS'd for his sake. If it is a personal collection (and yes, 01's are allowed personal collections and yes, there are special rules about that) then the transaction takes place as if he were unlicensed. Again, my comments were an attempt to give the "most of the time, this is true" answer. You can pick them apart all you want is specific scenarios. A perfect example is 50 year old SKS which, direct from the DOJ, they still want you to treat as a non C&R firearm but in reality it is a C&R firearm. I know b/c last year they made my DROS my 50 year old SKS. Pls, no replies about that... it's a whole separate issue of stupidity and gets into very specific nuances about the particular rifle.

I stand by the fundamentals of my original post with the caveat that not all FFL's agree with me. There are some much more conservative and some much more liberal then I in these gray areas. I like to think I'm "about right". :) My best advice to any licensed C&R collector is buy out of state... cheaper, hassle free...all problems solved! Most sellers even ship it here!

monkezuncle
11-04-2008, 10:31 PM
You can't base your idea of what is legal on simply witnessing or taking part in a transaction or asking people who are involved in similar transactions. You have to look at the actual law.

I can back up each of my statements with actual text from the California Penal Code. Can you?

Great question! No, and I would contend, neither can you. ;) I don't mean that as a dig. What I mean is, as I said earlier, that the gun laws are really screwed up here. Ask any of the lawyers here to find a rule in statue for most of the nuances we take for granted in firearms transactions and the answer will often be "I can't". Same here. (bunch of reasons for that, common law, legislative clarifications, Judaical precedent, no one ever bothers enforcing it, etc)

Let's take the broadest example of that. The granddaddy of all firearms rules is: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Now, maybe I'm too literal but that seems clear to me. No infringement! Yeah... bring me my grenade launcher! But wait, seems that may not apply as literally as I'd like... hmmmm. Point made.

Enjoyed the conversation immensly... now I am off to bed. Glad we could help ETD1010.

God spare us all from ourselves with this last election.

P.S. sorry if the initial response came off defensive... was still editing it when it posted. grrrrrr sorry!

Mssr. Eleganté
11-04-2008, 10:53 PM
Great question! No, and I would contend, neither can you. ;) I don't mean that as a dig. What I mean is, as I said earlier, that the gun laws are really screwed up here. Ask any of the lawyers here to find a rule in statue for most of the nuances we take for granted in firearms transactions and the answer will often be "I can't". Same here. (bunch of reasons for that, common law, legislative clarifications, Judaical precedent, no one ever bothers enforcing it, etc)

Nope, you can ask us to find any firearms rule in the California Penal Code, the United States Code or the Code of Federal Regulations and we will find it. We have done it hundreds of times on this very forum. In fact, the legality or illegality of every single one of the transactions you describe has been gone over several times here on Calguns.

Firearms laws are very complicated, but they are not some mysterious lore that you can only learn via oral history from your local ancient FFL. They are written down in black and white for all to see.

You can pick any one of your statements that I said was untrue and I will give you the exact PC to back up my claims. We could go over all of them if you'd like, but we should do them one at a time so the post doesn't get too confusing.

EOD Guy
11-05-2008, 6:15 AM
Great question! No, and I would contend, neither can you. ;) I don't mean that as a dig. What I mean is, as I said earlier, that the gun laws are really screwed up here. Ask any of the lawyers here to find a rule in statue for most of the nuances we take for granted in firearms transactions and the answer will often be "I can't". Same here. (bunch of reasons for that, common law, legislative clarifications, Judaical precedent, no one ever bothers enforcing it, etc)

Let's take the broadest example of that. The granddaddy of all firearms rules is: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Now, maybe I'm too literal but that seems clear to me. No infringement! Yeah... bring me my grenade launcher! But wait, seems that may not apply as literally as I'd like... hmmmm. Point made.

Enjoyed the conversation immensly... now I am off to bed. Glad we could help ETD1010.

God spare us all from ourselves with this last election.

P.S. sorry if the initial response came off defensive... was still editing it when it posted. grrrrrr sorry!

Let me add my two cents worth. Ammendment II was correct in each and every one of his statements. Here is a short synopsis of California gun law (with Penal Code cites) as pertains to C&R FFL holders. It is by no means complete, but does cover the basic points. It has, by the way, been reviewed by a California attorney who is familiar with California firearms law.

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers in the state to be processed through a dealer [Penal Code 12072(d)]. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons”. Also, magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)] The form is now on the California DOJ web site, forms section.

monkezuncle
11-05-2008, 10:06 PM
The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ..

Guys... I am genuinely not sure where you are getting your info. Proof positive is the above statement. This is 100% wrong. Proof of that is an SKS which is federal C&R but is not CA C&R.

Are you guys actually 03 FFL's? C'mon.

As far as the statues go... let me again go back to the point that it's not about the law...it's about how the law is applied and interpreted. That's the whole reason this entire forum exists. If you want a theoretical exercise... go to law school... that's all they wanted to do when I was there.. debate theory. When I got into the real world I quickly found that in practice and reality it's not that clean and neat.

I again stand by my post.

Mssr. Eleganté
11-05-2008, 10:17 PM
Guys... I am genuinely not sure where you are getting your info. Proof positive is the above statement. This is 100% wrong. Proof of that is an SKS which is federal C&R but is not CA C&R.

Are you guys actually 03 FFL's? C'mon.

As far as the statues go... let me again go back to the point that it's not about the law...it's about how the law is applied and interpreted. That's the whole reason this entire forum exists. If you want a theoretical exercise... go to law school... that's all they wanted to do when I was there.. debate theory. When I got into the real world I quickly found that in practice and reality it's not that clean and neat.

I again stand by my post.

Oh, I see how it works. You post a bunch of nonsense here on Calguns with no way to back it up and there is no way for you to be proven wrong because the written laws aren't really the laws. Great. :rolleyes:

hoffmang
11-05-2008, 10:31 PM
monkezuncle,

AII has been posting on this board where Penal Code and Federal Law and Regulation are routinely invoked to settle these disputes. I believe he may be an 03. I am an 03 and if you use search you'll quickly come to find my credentials. AII is exactly right about the transactions he's outlined.

Just because I don't care to spend all night looking up the cites for each case, I'll just lay out the cites for 01 -> 03 sale of a 20 year old rifle on the C&R list.


12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless
he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any
person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
...
(17) The delivery of an unloaded firearm that is a curio or relic,
as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal
Regulations, by a person licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto with a current
certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 12071 to a
dealer.



12071. (a) (1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee,"
"person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a
person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by
local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of
Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of
Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in
subdivision (e).
...
(3) No firearm shall be delivered:
(A) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after
notice by the department pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section
12076, within 10 days of the submission to the department of any
correction to the application, or within 10 days of the submission to
the department of any fee required pursuant to subdivision (e) of
Section 12076, whichever is later.



12073. (a) As required by the Department of Justice, every dealer
shall keep a register or record of electronic or telephonic transfer
in which shall be entered the information prescribed in Section
12077.



12077. (a) The Department of Justice shall prescribe the form of
the register and the record of electronic transfer pursuant to
Section 12074.
...
(c) (1) For firearms other than handguns, information contained in
the register or record of electronic transfer shall be the date and
time of sale, peace officer exemption status pursuant to subdivision
(a) of Section 12078 and the agency name, auction or event waiting
period exemption pursuant to subdivision (g) of Section 12078,
California Firearms Dealer number issued pursuant to Section 12071,
dangerous weapons permitholder waiting period exemption pursuant to
subdivision (r) of Section 12078, curio and relic waiting period
exemption pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (t) of Section
12078, full name of purchaser, purchaser's complete date of birth,
purchaser's local address, if current address is temporary, complete
permanent address of purchaser, identification of purchaser,
purchaser's place of birth (state or country), purchaser's complete
telephone number, purchaser's occupation, purchaser's sex, purchaser'
s physical description, all legal names and aliases ever used by the
purchaser, yes or no answer to questions that prohibit purchase,
including, but not limited to, conviction of a felony as described in
Section 12021 or an offense described in Section 12021.1, the
purchaser's status as a person described in Section 8100 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code, whether the purchaser is a person who
has been adjudicated by a court to be a danger to others or found not
guilty by reason of insanity, whether the purchaser is a person who
has been found incompetent to stand trial or placed under
conservatorship by a court pursuant to Section 8103 of the Welfare
and Institutions Code, signature of purchaser, signature of
salesperson (as a witness to the purchaser's signature), salesperson'
s certificate of eligibility number if he or she has obtained a
certificate of eligibility, name and complete address of the dealer
or firm selling the firearm as shown on the dealer's license, the
establishment number, if assigned, the dealer's complete business
telephone number, any information required by Section 12082, and a
statement of the penalties for any person signing a fictitious name
or address or for knowingly furnishing any incorrect information or
for knowingly omitting any information required to be provided for
the register.



12078. (t) (1) The waiting period described in Section 12071 or 12072
shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm
that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27
of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to
a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current
certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of
Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery,
sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall
transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic
report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c)
of Section 12077.
(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or
relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but
not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title
27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(u) As used in this section:
(1) "Infrequent" has the same meaning as in paragraph (1) of
subdivision (c) of Section 12070.


So you see that a C&R with a COE can skip the wait, but that a licensed 01/07 will have to run the DROS and apply the wait absent the C&R and COE. With the C&R and COE there is no wait but the DROS is still run. You'll also note that the C&R list is the Federal C&R list when dealing with 03 FFLs. The 50 years or older exemption is for both 03 FFLs and normal citizens as you can see above.

-Gene

hoffmang
11-05-2008, 10:37 PM
Proof of that is an SKS which is federal C&R but is not CA C&R.


Any SKS that is 50 years old or older is defined under CA law as transferable by anyone not on the centralized list of dealers without waiting periods or background checks.

Any SKS specifically listed on the Federal C&R list and not over 50 years old are transferable without background check or waiting period to an 03 FFL whose licensed address is in CA or between 03 FFLs without background check or waiting period whose licensed addresses are in CA or anywhere.

-Gene

EOD Guy
11-06-2008, 6:29 AM
Guys... I am genuinely not sure where you are getting your info. Proof positive is the above statement. This is 100% wrong. Proof of that is an SKS which is federal C&R but is not CA C&R.

Are you guys actually 03 FFL's? C'mon.

As far as the statues go... let me again go back to the point that it's not about the law...it's about how the law is applied and interpreted. That's the whole reason this entire forum exists. If you want a theoretical exercise... go to law school... that's all they wanted to do when I was there.. debate theory. When I got into the real world I quickly found that in practice and reality it's not that clean and neat.

I again stand by my post.

Sorry, but you are wrong, again. California describes curio and relic firearms as those defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. See PC 12078(t)(1). There is no theoretical exercise involved. It's in black and white and is exactly how the law is applied.

An SKS that is a Federal C&R is also a C&R in California. Some that are less than 50 years old must be transferred through a dealer, but that doesn't affect their C&R status. Also, some may not be imported into California because of some other part of California law such as Yugo SKSs with grenade launchers, firearms that are classified as assault weapons, or machine guns. Again, that doesn't affect their C&R status.

By the way, the contents of my post concerning California C&R regulations were reviewed and approved by an attorney that actually graduated from law school and who is a member of the California Bar Association.

EOD Guy
11-06-2008, 6:36 AM
Any SKS that is 50 years old or older is defined under CA law as transferable by anyone not on the centralized list of dealers without waiting periods or background checks.

Any SKS specifically listed on the Federal C&R list and not over 50 years old are transferable without background check or waiting period to an 03 FFL whose licensed address is in CA or between 03 FFLs without background check or waiting period whose licensed addresses are in CA or anywhere.

-Gene

Sorry, but the second statement is incorrect within California. Any C&R firearm that is less than 50 years old must be transferred through a California licensed dealer. A holder of a C&R FFL and a COE can bypass the 10 day waiting period when purchasing a C&R firearm from a dealer, but the DROS and background check must be performed. See PC 12078(t)(1).

geeknow
11-06-2008, 7:12 AM
AmmendmentII & Hoffmang are right. Creds? I personally am an 03 w/COE. I too work at the shows for one of the 01/07 dealers. Our policy (and that of most other dealers that I am aware) mirrors that which was laid out in detail by AII's earlier post.

I hear what you are saying with respect to confusion within the .gov officess that are supposed to be the authority, but in this case it is pretty clear.

hoffmang
11-06-2008, 9:15 AM
Sorry, but the second statement is incorrect within California. Any C&R firearm that is less than 50 years old must be transferred through a California licensed dealer. A holder of a C&R FFL and a COE can bypass the 10 day waiting period when purchasing a C&R firearm from a dealer, but the DROS and background check must be performed. See PC 12078(t)(1).

I can admit when I'm wrong and an under 50 year old C&R does need to go through an 01 for a DROS. As soon as I posted this and went to bed I remembered that I had been wrong about that before. The nuance is that the under 50 year old SKS on the Federal C&R list is acquirable out of state by a CA 03 FFL.

It is however federally pre-empted but that takes a lawsuit to prove.

-Gene