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nmikmik
01-12-2017, 10:24 AM
Creating a separate thread because it is more of a specific question.
Trying to reload some dummies without the primers or powder, just to see if my dies are set up correctly.
I am still struggling to understand the reloading data I am gathering from different source, primarily because it's conflicting.
Lyman's handbook does not have my Berry's bullets nor Hodgdon CFE pistol data for the 9mm. The closest they have to my Berry's .356 124gr plated HP is the 125gr jacketed HP listing. Now, the fun part; Lyman's shows 1.075 COL,
Hodgdon, although without mentioning the HP, shows 1.150 and Berry's website 1.060
So which data is correct for my loads or what should be my final OAL if neither of them is correct?
Thanks!

blkside
01-12-2017, 10:34 AM
I have a little cheat app on my phone and they have the following

Berrys 124 Gr RN (.356) on CFE Pistol is 4.9gr (1006FPS) to 5.5gr (1120FPS)

That's all I can get you right now until I get to my Hornady Manual.

The App BTW is called "RELOADING ASSISTANT" and has a fair amount of info and what I have bounced off it so far has been out of one of the legitimate manuals.

slayer61
01-12-2017, 11:04 AM
Go see Hodgdon's reloading sight. They have a specific recipe for Berry's with CFE if that's what you're looking for.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Looks like
Hodgdon CFE Pistol .356" diameter 1.150" min COL 4.9 grains start 1,006 FPS 27,300 PSI 5.5 grains max 1,120 FPS 33,800 PSI

Good luck!

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 11:05 AM
Hey, thanks for such a quick reply and the offer blkside
The Hodgdon shows the same data, plus the OAL, just need to know if it's correct one.

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 11:10 AM
Go see Hodgdon's reloading sight. They have a specific recipe for Berry's with CFE if that's what you're looking for.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Looks like
Hodgdon CFE Pistol .356" diameter 1.150" min COL 4.9 grains start 1,006 FPS 27,300 PSI 5.5 grains max 1,120 FPS 33,800 PSI

Good luck!

Thank you slayer61!
I used that very same data when was looking up for my reloads, but when I did the 1.150 it fits the gauge fine and when I try them in my CZ75 barrel they hang about 1/16" off compare to the factory GECO round.
Any ideas?

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 11:29 AM
Here are some pictures from my attempts
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170112_101445.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170112_101445.jpg.html)
factory ammo
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170112_101534.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170112_101534.jpg.html)

slayer61
01-12-2017, 11:46 AM
Odd.... my reloads @ 1.15 fit my Mrs' CZ without problem. Sounds to me like you need to find a good COL first and then very slowly and carefully start at the bottom of the range and test for signs of over pressure.

What is the COL on the factory ammo you're using??

Bulged brass??

Did you crimp before doing the plunk test?

Keep us updated.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-iOdCpSrdwxM/UXQ6-VWlZEI/AAAAAAAAMT0/CZga4lfZ5-c/Capture%2525209mm_thumb%25255B4%25255D.jpg?imgmax= 800

edit to add that specs say you can go as short as 1.00" and as long as 1.169" and still be within specs.
Please understand that Hodgdon's specs were tested with their listed length. Shorter lengths will increase pressure and vice versa.

BEE
01-12-2017, 11:56 AM
Do a push test to get the max COL with the bullet you are planning to load for your particular barrel. Not all barrels are made the same.

blkside
01-12-2017, 12:01 PM
Do you have a factory crimp die, cause it is most likely catching on an expanded lip rather than the COL...

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 12:08 PM
Do a push test to get the max COL with the bullet you are planning to load for your particular barrel. Not all barrels are made the same.
Thank you Bee,
please explain to me what the "push test" is. I am very new to reloading and don't have all the terms and abbreviations yet ;)
and no I don't have the factory crimp die, I was told I don't need one.
I did notice that my rounds look more bulged at the mouth but thought it's because my bullets are slightly oversize diameter compare to the GECOs.
I measured them with micrometer and they are barely wider, but still fall inside the gauge just like the factory do, smoothly.
Maybe I just need to reset my crimp die and see if it does the same... Come to think of it, what you say perfectly makes sense the OAL should be effecting the feeding from magazine into the chamber rather than chambering itself, no?

BEE
01-12-2017, 12:19 PM
Thank you Bee,
please explain to me what the "push test" is. I am very new to reloading and don't have all the terms and abbreviations yet ;)
and no I don't have the factory crimp die, I was told I don't need one.
I did notice that my rounds look more bulged at the mouth but thought it's because my bullets are slightly oversize diameter compare to the GECOs.
I measured them with micrometer and they are barely wider, but still fall inside the gauge just like the factory do, smoothly.
Maybe I just need to reset my crimp die and see if it does the same... Come to think of it, what you say perfectly makes sense the OAL should be effecting the feeding from magazine into the chamber rather than chambering itself, no?

Yep, no prob. Rather me explaining, here is a thread link regarding finding the max oal by doing the "Push Test".

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0

After finding the max oal for your particular barrel, perform the "Plunk Test" to verify a safe workable col. Youtube link as follows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s80P2j02YnM

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 12:26 PM
Yep, no prob. Rather me explaining, here is a thread link regarding finding the max oal by doing the "Push Test".

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0

After finding the max oal for your particular barrel, perform the "Plunk Test" to verify a safe workable col. Youtube link as follows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s80P2j02YnM

Perfect,
thank you very much!

slayer61
01-12-2017, 12:28 PM
Yep, no prob. Rather me explaining, here is a thread link regarding finding the max oal by doing the "Push Test".

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0



Excellent resource. Thank you.

stilly
01-12-2017, 12:52 PM
Creating a separate thread because it is more of a specific question.
Trying to reload some dummies without the primers or powder, just to see if my dies are set up correctly.
I am still struggling to understand the reloading data I am gathering from different source, primarily because it's conflicting.
Lyman's handbook does not have my Berry's bullets nor Hodgdon CFE pistol data for the 9mm. The closest they have to my Berry's .356 124gr plated HP is the 125gr jacketed HP listing. Now, the fun part; Lyman's shows 1.075 COL,
Hodgdon, although without mentioning the HP, shows 1.150 and Berry's website 1.060
So which data is correct for my loads or what should be my final OAL if neither of them is correct?
Thanks!

There is an ART to the science of reloading... Different lawfirms will produce different high and low starting points among books because it is PUBLISHED DATA which means they are supposed to be responsible for what they put out there so they do not get sued. Different folks will try different lengths and charges based on manufacturer data and their own studies. That is where you can get conflicting info. So if you want to feel safer, pick a range that is within BOTH of those sources and start from the lowest of that range and see what you get. Making a bullet longer is not a problem, but making it shorter increases pressure levels sometimes and that could be bad for the shooter.

So tell me, do you have a girlfriend... :43:


oops. It looks like I am late to the party (as usual) so then looking at those photos, I want to say to check for glocked brass... But that is just a guess without putting much thought into it.

Bt Doctur
01-12-2017, 1:06 PM
I would resize a case and see if it fits correctly. rimless cartriges headspace on the rim,
now load a bullet in this case to your set depth and see if it seats. If it dosent, your hitting the rifling , not good. Might check the chamber depth too with a gauge

ironhorse1
01-12-2017, 2:16 PM
I would resize a case and see if it fits correctly. rimless cartriges headspace on the rim,
now load a bullet in this case to your set depth and see if it seats. If it dosent, your hitting the rifling , not good. Might check the chamber depth too with a gauge

Come on we all know that rimless cartridges headspace on the mouth.

Rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim and rimless rifle cartridges headspace on the shoulder.

To the OP; Be sure that you are fully resizing the case as in the die touches the shell holder and cams over just a little.

OAL will vary with bullet shape and weight. Follow recommended data as listed in your reloading manual.

The cartridge base should align flush with the barrel hood if resized properly and the bullet is not stuck into the rifling.

irh

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 2:30 PM
I would resize a case and see if it fits correctly. rimless cartriges headspace on the rim,
now load a bullet in this case to your set depth and see if it seats. If it dosent, your hitting the rifling , not good. Might check the chamber depth too with a gauge

Thank you,
I will do that and see where it gets me in addition to the "push test" if I can.
"so then looking at those photos, I want to say to check for glocked brass... But that is just a guess without putting much thought into it. "
It should not be glock'ed brass because I am using my own "once fired", at least I hope.

arrowshooter
01-12-2017, 2:37 PM
Come on we all know that rimless cartridges headspace on the mouth.

Rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim and rimless rifle cartridges headspace on the shoulder.

To the OP; Be sure that you are fully resizing the case as in the die touches the shell holder and cams over just a little.

OAL will vary with bullet shape and weight. Follow recommended data as listed in your reloading manual.

The cartridge base should align flush with the barrel hood if resized properly and the bullet is not stuck into the rifling.

irh

This. Your case is not long enough to stick out that far.

ironhorse1
01-12-2017, 2:38 PM
Thank you,
I will do that and see where it gets me in addition to the "push test" if I can.
"so then looking at those photos, I want to say to check for glocked brass... But that is just a guess without putting much thought into it. "
It should not be glock'ed brass because I am using my own "once fired", at least I hope.

I would say you have not fully sized your cases as pointed out in my previous post.

A Berrys bullet seated to 1.120" should not contact the rifling and stop forward movement. That is if it is a 115 grain round nose bullet.

irh

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 4:23 PM
I would say you have not fully sized your cases as pointed out in my previous post.

A Berrys bullet seated to 1.120" should not contact the rifling and stop forward movement. That is if it is a 115 grain round nose bullet.

irh
Thank you again,
but... I am still confused with caming over when resizing
I watched all bunch of videos and read the die instructions, in both they specifically say not to cam over the carbide dies that I use. Will it void the RCBS warranty if I end up cracking the die?
Measuring both, my tumbled cases as well as the new ones I bought, the case length comes to .075 where the Lyman's says .0751. I thought I am ok there, unless you are talking about different dimension of trim. When I take an empty resized case and drop it into my barrel it ends "visually" where the loaded round does.
I am using 124rg HP Berry's bullets
BTW, when I ran the same "test" in my Sig my loaded round still protruded more than factory, but less than in the CZ.

ironhorse1
01-12-2017, 4:43 PM
I've been camming over carbide dies for almost forty years. I have not had a single issue.

Here's what is going on when you set your die. You screw it down until it touches the shell holder. Then you screw it down another quarter turn more or less.

What happens when you size a case there is some stretch or flex on the press.

If you just touch the shell holder the flex will leave a gap at the bottom of the case. By adding a little more the die bottoms out fully re-sizing the case.

Cam over is the pressure you feel as the die and shell holder mesh together at the bottom of the stroke.

It is not a problem and will not hurt the carbide sizer.

How else can we help?

irh

ironhorse1
01-12-2017, 4:57 PM
You are over thinking case length in the 9mm. Cases will vary and it is not critical to your reloading process in this caliber.

Berrys makes two different 124 hp's. One is a round nose and the other a truncated cone design.

I seat most all 9mm to 1.120" except really long round noses at 1.130".

There are a few barrels which need a shorter OAL with some bullets but I suspect yours is not one of those.

Just get the re-size correct and taper crimp until the mouth is closed against the bullet.

You do not need a factory crimp die to make good ammunition. I'm using Lee dies and the three die set does it all.

irh

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 7:15 PM
I've been camming over carbide dies for almost forty years. I have not had a single issue.

Here's what is going on when you set your die. You screw it down until it touches the shell holder. Then you screw it down another quarter turn more or less.

What happens when you size a case there is some stretch or flex on the press.

If you just touch the shell holder the flex will leave a gap at the bottom of the case. By adding a little more the die bottoms out fully re-sizing the case.

Cam over is the pressure you feel as the die and shell holder mesh together at the bottom of the stroke.

It is not a problem and will not hurt the carbide sizer.

How else can we help?

irh
Thank you very much for all your explanations and it does help a lot.
It is not just the case length that I am overthinking, just ask my wife :)

Will readjust my seating die and update with results.
Thank you.

nmikmik
01-12-2017, 8:13 PM
So, because I didn't have much time, basically been lazy, I just decided to force the bullet into the case until it fits :p
I went down from 1.14 to 1.08 and it finally kind of fits. The reason for kind of, it still feel like it's hitting something at the very end of the round. When I insert the factory round into my CZ barrel and try "wiggling" it a bit (technical term) i.e. trying to apply some leverage at the seat of the case to feel if there is any play at the business end of the bullet against the freebore I feel a little bit of looseness. When I do the same with my reloaded round it feels very tight like it still hitting something. Tried lubricating the round with some dark colored grease and see where it is hitting, no luck. Will try going to 1.06 (maybe Berry's know something about their bullets after all) tomorrow and/or do the "push test" to finally be done with this part of the process.
"Berrys makes two different 124 hp's. One is a round nose and the other a truncated cone design."
I am using the truncated cone ones if it matters.

Calguns77
01-12-2017, 11:17 PM
So, because I didn't have much time, basically been lazy, I just decided to force the bullet into the case until it fits :p
I went down from 1.14 to 1.08 and it finally kind of fits. The reason for kind of, it still feel like it's hitting something at the very end of the round. When I insert the factory round into my CZ barrel and try "wiggling" it a bit (technical term) i.e. trying to apply some leverage at the seat of the case to feel if there is any play at the business end of the bullet against the freebore I feel a little bit of looseness. When I do the same with my reloaded round it feels very tight like it still hitting something. Tried lubricating the round with some dark colored grease and see where it is hitting, no luck. Will try going to 1.06 (maybe Berry's know something about their bullets after all) tomorrow and/or do the "push test" to finally be done with this part of the process.
"Berrys makes two different 124 hp's. One is a round nose and the other a truncated cone design."
I am using the truncated cone ones if it matters.

Just grab your calipers and confirm the case body and neck are in spec. Like others said one or both are oversized.

DarkKing
01-13-2017, 12:39 AM
Just grab your calipers and confirm the case body and neck are in spec. Like others said one or both are oversized.

I happen to have a fresh batch of 124 GR RN plated from berry's.

Ill see how my glock loves them at 1.15. They sit fine in the barrel and my max cartridge tester.

They also work at 1.14

ElDub1950
01-13-2017, 1:19 AM
Go see Hodgdon's reloading sight. They have a specific recipe for Berry's with CFE if that's what you're looking for.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Looks like
Hodgdon CFE Pistol .356" diameter 1.150" min COL 4.9 grains start 1,006 FPS 27,300 PSI 5.5 grains max 1,120 FPS 33,800 PSI

Good luck!

I use 1.150 also and it works for me.

But OP, the 'best' can depend on your gun. Try 1.15 and do a plunk test to make sure you're not too long for your gun(s). Almost certainly will but a 3 second test verifies it.

nmikmik
01-13-2017, 5:50 AM
I just measured few of the reloads and they all are less than Lyman's says and exact match with my GECOs measure .370 at the mouth and .380 at the head.
I also need a better caliper :(
The interesting thing, confirming the notion that all and specifically CZ barrels are not created equal, did the plunk test in my Sig's barrel and my 1.12 rounds fit almost as well as the factory and my 1.10 barely feel like they hit anything.
So now I either have to decide what round should I be making that would fit both barrels or start reloading gun specific rounds? Really wondering how will they work with regular round nose bullets, maybe I should started with those instead of the HP.

ironhorse1
01-13-2017, 7:00 AM
It would help if you could post a close up photo of your reload next to a factory round.

There have been several times when others have done this and immediately we all see either an over or under crimp situation.

I'm not sure what you are trying to feel when testing. It is called the plunk test due to the sound of the cartridge dropping nicely into the chamber.

irh

If you need some hands on help PM me. I'm retired and the weather sucks.

nmikmik
01-13-2017, 7:27 AM
It would help if you could post a close up photo of your reload next to a factory round.

There have been several times when others have done this and immediately we all see either an over or under crimp situation.

I'm not sure what you are trying to feel when testing. It is called the plunk test due to the sound of the cartridge dropping nicely into the chamber.

irh

If you need some hands on help PM me. I'm retired and the weather sucks.
Thanks IRH,
I will do that as soon as I can.
and thanks for the offer too!

nmikmik
01-13-2017, 8:13 AM
Here some pictures I got this morning -
Left to right my 1.15, two factory GECO rounds, my 1.08 round
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170113_083018.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170113_083018.jpg.html)

also including pictures of factory rounds compare to my 1.08 rounds inside the gauge
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170112_123527.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170112_123527.jpg.html)
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170112_123506.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170112_123506.jpg.html)
also GECO inside my Sig's barrel
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170113_090445.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170113_090445.jpg.html)
my 1.15 inside same barrel
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170113_090533.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170113_090533.jpg.html)
and 1.08 inside same barrel
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170113_090613.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170113_090613.jpg.html)

hopefully a better picture of my 1.08
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170113_092800.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170113_092800.jpg.html)

ironhorse1
01-13-2017, 8:27 AM
OH yeah! The first round is loaded too long for that style of bullet and there is not enough crimp on the case mouth.

Here's where we need to talk about ogives. The factory bullet has a nice long curve on the sides. That's the ogive.

Truncated bullets have straight sides then the cone. When round nose and TC bullets are placed side by side it is easy to see that the TC bullet is probably hitting the rifling at that length.

The last round looks good about the same as my own reloads. I wonder about your caliper as you last one looks about the same as my own 124 TCFP X-treme loads which measure 1.120".

BTW a hollow point bullet is longer than an equal weight RN bullet due to the hollow cavity. This will lead to deeper seating being needed to clear the lands and will increase the pressure.

irh

ironhorse1
01-13-2017, 8:56 AM
Here are three cartridges for comparison.

The first is a Remington 115 FMJ @ 1.100"

Second is a PMC 115 FMJ @ 1.160"

Third X-Treme 124 TCFP @ 1.120"

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o136/BruceLeeM/DSCN0018_zps5qf2lux0.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/BruceLeeM/media/DSCN0018_zps5qf2lux0.jpg.html)

The bullet you are using has a definite sharp shoulder. You will have to load them short to prevent hitting the lands. Thank you for the good photos.

irh

I measured some bullets just for comparison. 125 JSP .565" X-treme 124 TCFP .524" Zero 115 JHP .549" Old magnetic 115 RN .627"

nmikmik
01-13-2017, 9:37 AM
OH yeah! The first round is loaded too long for that style of bullet and there is not enough crimp on the case mouth.

Here's where we need to talk about ogives. The factory bullet has a nice long curve on the sides. That's the ogive.

Truncated bullets have straight sides then the cone. When round nose and TC bullets are placed side by side it is easy to see that the TC bullet is probably hitting the rifling at that length.

The last round looks good about the same as my own reloads. I wonder about your caliper as you last one looks about the same as my own 124 TCFP X-treme loads which measure 1.120".

BTW a hollow point bullet is longer than an equal weight RN bullet due to the hollow cavity. This will lead to deeper seating being needed to clear the lands and will increase the pressure.

irh
Thank you so much IRH!

I just ordered another caliper this morning and maybe will order a micrometer as well.
The thing is, when I measure a factory bullet with my Harbor Freight caliper, yeaaa I know ha :rolleyes: it still shows the 1.15 just like the manual recommends. Regardless new caliper will not take too much space in the drawer plus it's stainless not composite like the HFT is.
When you say the last reload looks good, does that include the crimp?
Also if I seat the bullet deeper, should I trim amount of powder I will be loading and by how much. Maybe I should go with more of a "compact" powder so there is more space left inside the case to prevent overpressure?
Or am I overthinking this again? :o
I am getting a feeling that I shouldn't have started with these specific bullets, they were on sale
I see what you mean about the shoulder after I took my son's Gold Dot for comparison, those are 1.11 so considering the shoulder, I am not surprised mine should be shorter.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/nmikmik/IMG_20170113_104749.jpg (http://s64.photobucket.com/user/nmikmik/media/IMG_20170113_104749.jpg.html)

ironhorse1
01-13-2017, 9:53 AM
Thank you so much IRH!

I just ordered another caliper this morning and maybe will order a micrometer as well.
The thing is, when I measure a factory bullet with my Harbor Freight caliper, yeaaa I know ha :rolleyes: it still shows the 1.15 just like the manual recommends. Regardless new caliper will not take too much space in the drawer plus it's stainless not composite like the HFT is.
When you say the last reload looks good, does that include the crimp?
Also if I seat the bullet deeper, should I trim amount of powder I will be loading and by how much. Maybe I should go with more of a "compact" powder so there is more space left inside the case to prevent overpressure?
Or am I overthinking this again? :o
I am getting a feeling that I shouldn't have started with these specific bullets, they were on sale

The last crimp looks good!

Hollow points are not needed for plinking ammo and some pistols do not like large HP's as I found out with some Rainiers.

As long as you have data and an OAL listed for that bullet then start with the lowest load and work your way up. If you seat them shorter than recommended then start lower as pressure will rise quickly.

The 9mm case is so small all powders will fill the case. You can use almost any powder in the 9mm that you can find data.

I added bullet lengths to my previous post and would like to know the length of the bullet you are using. This will help in knowing how deep it is into the case at 1.08".

Short loads can quickly become hot loads without additional powder.

Rule of thumb is cut the powder charge 10% and work up if you seat deeper than recommended.

irh

nmikmik
01-13-2017, 1:34 PM
Thank you again,

the bullets are 0.56 long,
Just ordered some round nose from Brownells, worth starting with that imo.