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View Full Version : Really really stupid flash hider question


Paradiddle
10-30-2008, 5:18 PM
Just to confirm - a old style Mini 14 birdcage flashhider is in fact a flash hider and illegal on a mini UNLESS the mini was registered as an AW?

Right......

ohsmily
10-30-2008, 5:20 PM
Just to confirm - a old style Mini 14 birdcage flashhider is in fact a flash hider and illegal on a mini UNLESS the mini was registered as an AW?

Right......

Yes. And why? you should be able to answer the question if you read the flow chart: Semiauto, centerfire, detachable magazine rifle with any ONE of the following is an assault weapon: pistol grip, forward pistol grip, flash hider, telescoping/collapsible stock, grenade or flare launcher.

If you lock the magazine in place (dumb idea) that would make it legal as well.

bohoki
10-30-2008, 5:26 PM
ive seen a mini 14 muzzle device that is both a flash hider and a muzzle brake which is pretty rediculus if you think about it since the flash is going to blast out the brake section

its a bit like having one muffler on one pipe and not on the other

sure you have a muffler but its still making lots of noise


http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/132156_ts.JPG?cell=320,320&cvt=jpeg

Paradiddle
10-30-2008, 5:26 PM
Yes. And why? you should be able to answer the question if you read the flow chart: Semiauto, centerfire, detachable magazine rifle with any ONE of the following is an assault weapon: pistol grip, forward pistol grip, flash hider, telescoping/collapsible stock, grenade or flare launcher.

If you lock the magazine in place (dumb idea) that would make it legal as well.


Thought so - and since I've been uninterested in EBRs I completly forgot about the flowchart!

Thanks,

Jeff

sorensen440
10-30-2008, 5:28 PM
ive seen a mini 14 muzzle device that is both a flash hider and a muzzle brake which is pretty rediculus if you think about it since the flash is going to blast out the brake section

its a bit like having one muffler on one pipe and not on the other

sure you have a muffler but its still making lots of noise


http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/132156_ts.JPG?cell=320,320&cvt=jpeg

I purchased a combo like that for my keltec years back (not realizing that I was in fact making my su-16 an assault weapon)
Goofy as hell looked much better in pictures.

Tumerboy
10-30-2008, 7:01 PM
So, I'll ask here, instead of starting something new, but what exactly differentiates a "Muzzle Break" (Good) from a "Flash Hider" (Evil)

Looking at a bunch of muzzle devices, how would I know which is a muzzle break, and which a flash hider?

asheron2
10-30-2008, 7:26 PM
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Its on page two in the lower right hand corner, even a nice little picture thats helped me out too.

Hope this helps yahh some and thanks for showing this too me ohsmily.

akjunkie
10-30-2008, 10:33 PM
So, I'll ask here, instead of starting something new, but what exactly differentiates a "Muzzle Break" (Good) from a "Flash Hider" (Evil)

Looking at a bunch of muzzle devices, how would I know which is a muzzle break, and which a flash hider?

short version...

Flash hider reduces the Decibel.. hence it is considered a "Silencer".

the Muzzlebreak on my pre-ban DSARM SA58 carbine extinguishes the Flash signature pretty well, but it is louder than a Freaking Mofo!

bohoki
10-30-2008, 11:10 PM
short version...

Flash hider reduces the Decibel.. hence it is considered a "Silencer".

the Muzzlebreak on my pre-ban DSARM SA58 carbine extinguishes the Flash signature pretty well, but it is louder than a Freaking Mofo!

uh i don't klnow why you believe that a flashhider reduces sound in any way ?

the thing that boggles my mind is the duplex brake/hider

that shoots bright flares in the back yet the front is a hider?

akjunkie
10-31-2008, 7:27 AM
uh i don't klnow why you believe that a flashhider reduces sound in any way ?

the thing that boggles my mind is the duplex brake/hider

that shoots bright flares in the back yet the front is a hider?


One of the silly reasons FH were banned back from 94-04.
Do your research.

aplinker
10-31-2008, 8:00 AM
short version...

Flash hider reduces the Decibel.. hence it is considered a "Silencer".

the Muzzlebreak on my pre-ban DSARM SA58 carbine extinguishes the Flash signature pretty well, but it is louder than a Freaking Mofo!

:rofl2:

no... wrong... totally wrong.

Essentially the ONLY way to distinguish a flash hider from a muzzle brake is how it's marketed/sold. If it's sold in any way as a device to reduce/eliminate flash, it's a flash suppressor. If it's not, it's a brake, barrel extension, etc.

This is as a result of the very limited explanation of a FH in the PC and the refusal of BOF to explain it further. The end result is the above.


Silencer... that's priceless. :D

akjunkie
10-31-2008, 8:23 AM
:rofl2:

no... wrong... totally wrong.

Essentially the ONLY way to distinguish a flash hider from a muzzle brake is how it's marketed/sold. If it's sold in any way as a device to reduce/eliminate flash, it's a flash suppressor. If it's not, it's a brake, barrel extension, etc.

This is as a result of the very limited explanation of a FH in the PC and the refusal of BOF to explain it further. The end result is the above.


Silencer... that's priceless. :D

PM SENT

I stand by my statement. Those old enuff to buy AWs during the 94-04 ban knows what i'm talking about.

Seesm
12-14-2008, 3:55 AM
short version...

Flash hider reduces the Decibel.. hence it is considered a "Silencer".

the Muzzlebreak on my pre-ban DSARM SA58 carbine extinguishes the Flash signature pretty well, but it is louder than a Freaking Mofo!


Ok but the flash hider which is illegal on the mini is legal on a ar with a fixed mag?


It is ok if the mag does not come out...

Just like a pistal grip is ok if the mag does not come out...?

Stupid stuff... IMHO anyway...

I mean can you hurt more people with the pistol grip over std stock...?

dfletcher
12-14-2008, 5:31 AM
So, I'll ask here, instead of starting something new, but what exactly differentiates a "Muzzle Break" (Good) from a "Flash Hider" (Evil)

Looking at a bunch of muzzle devices, how would I know which is a muzzle break, and which a flash hider?

A flash hider and muzzle brake are legal. According to CA DOJ, only a flash suppressor is not legal. As I understand it, a flash suppressor is any device which has the capability of directing the muzzle flash away from the shooter's line of sight.

So, a device which has ports 360 - since no matter how it is screwed on the flash will be distributed 360 degrees - may not be a suppressor. But if that same device has ports 180 degrees and is threaded, it could be a suppressor because it can be screwed on "ports down".

From a legal point of view in CA, a pin on brake may be better legally defensible than a thread on

There are many permutations of what may and may not be a suppressor and it's an interesting subject. Personally I think the law, as written, is so vague as to be able to ensnare as many folks as possible should DOJ desire to do so.

workinwifdakids
12-14-2008, 2:58 PM
Go figure. //shrugs//

I thought a flash hider was illegal under any situation, even *with* a fixed mag.

Learn something new every day at CalGuns!

Fjold
12-14-2008, 3:29 PM
short version...

Flash hider reduces the Decibel.. hence it is considered a "Silencer".

the Muzzlebreak on my pre-ban DSARM SA58 carbine extinguishes the Flash signature pretty well, but it is louder than a Freaking Mofo!


A flash hider directs the flash away from the vision of the shooter. It has nothing to do with sound levels. The AWB banned guns with evil features like flash hiders merely for cosmetic reasons, i.e. because they looked evil.



One other thing, it's hard to take someone seriously on technical issues when they use the term 'muzzlebreak". That term screams "newbie" to most people.

Dr. Peter Venkman
12-14-2008, 3:46 PM
One other thing, it's hard to take someone seriously on technical issues when they use the term 'muzzlebreak". That term screams "newbie" to most people.

What's wrong with the term 'muzzle brake'?

ohsmily
12-14-2008, 5:29 PM
I thought a flash hider was illegal under any situation, even *with* a fixed mag.


:banghead: Why would you think? What law are you reading? Since you are referring to "how it is written," can you please cite it so we can read what you are talking about???

A flash hider and muzzle break are legal. A flash suppressor is not legal. As I understand it, a flash suppressor is any device which has the capability of directing the muzzle flash away from the shooter's line of sight.

So, a device which has ports 360 - since no matter how it is screwed on the flash will be distributed 360 degrees - may not be a suppressor.This has nothing to do whether it is flash suppressor or not....Look at the A2 birdcage But if that same device has ports 180d egrees and is threaded, it could be a suppressor.
Actually, a flash suppressor and flash hider refer to the same thing. Some redirect flash while others "carburate" the escaping gasses so the unburned powder can expand, cool, and burn quickly rather than be shot three feet out the front of the barrel
From a legal point of view in CA, a pin on brake may be better legally defensible than a thread on
WHY??? What is your basis for stating that????
There are many permutations of what may and may not be a suppressor and it's an interesting subject. Personally I think the law, as written, is so vague as to be able to ensnare as many folks as possible should DOJ desire to do so.
.......................

aplinker
12-14-2008, 5:31 PM
What's wrong with the term 'muzzle brake'?

Nothing. He said "muzzlebreak"

The real differentiation is how the muzzle device is marketed. If the manufacturer says anything about reducing flash, consider it a flash suppressor.

dfletcher
12-14-2008, 7:17 PM
:Originally Posted by dfletcher
A flash hider and muzzle break are legal. A flash suppressor is not legal. As I understand it, a flash suppressor is any device which has the capability of directing the muzzle flash away from the shooter's line of sight.

So, a device which has ports 360 - since no matter how it is screwed on the flash will be distributed 360 degrees - may not be a suppressor.This has nothing to do whether it is flash suppressor or not....Look at the A2 birdcage. But if that same device has ports 180 degrees and is threaded, it could be a suppressor.Actually, a flash suppressor and flash hider refer to the same thing. Some redirect flash while others "carburate" the escaping gasses so the unburned powder can expand, cool, and burn quickly rather than be shot three feet out the front of the barrel
From a legal point of view in CA, a pin on brake may be better legally defensible than a thread on
WHY??? What is your basis for stating that????

There are many permutations of what may and may not be a suppressor and it's an interesting subject. Personally I think the law, as written, is so vague as to be able to ensnare as many folks as possible should DOJ desire to do so.

.......................

Regarding the A2 - agree with you, yes it is a suppressor. Perhaps I should have used the phrse "might not" instead?

I'm not stating any thread on device with 360 ports is not a suppressor, only that a device with 360 ports could be a better choice than a device with ports on only part of the device if it is a thread on type. Takes me forever to find, but I believe CA DOJ terminology regarding suppressor definition is that the device has the "capability to redirect" the muzzle flash from the shooter's field of view. Just my opinion, but I think DOJ could assert that a thread on brake with porting 180 degrees could be screwed on to a muzzle "ports down" & that would redirect the muzzle flash away from the shooter's field of view making it a suppressor. Yes, it's sold as a brake & works as a brake, but it also redirects - even if you have to install it "improperly" to do so. What's your take on that?

I know we use hider and suppressor to mean the same thing, but DOJ references a suppressor as illegal and I've not seen their definition of a hider. I've always thought of a flash hider as being a device which tends to hide the shooter's postion from others.

Regarding a pin on device, going back to a device having the capability of redirecting muzzle flash and being considered a suppressor, my thinking is that if the device can be mounted on a barrel only one way (ports up not down) that could preclude DOJ from asserting the device is somehow a suppressor.

Instead of taking the approach "it is what the manufacturer says it is" or only using a device as it was intended to be used, I'd like to take a different point of view which is what does the thing actually do and how could it be used against the owner, so to speak.

And sorry, I've probably screwed up this whole quote cut & paste thing.

Seesm
12-14-2008, 7:34 PM
That is my point the law is flawed (like we did not know this) because a "flash surpressor" is ok on a fixed mag rifle... WTF?

workinwifdakids
12-14-2008, 8:22 PM
ohsmily:

It's unclear whether you're responding to me, and/or to dfletcher, since you quoted both of us.

I understand you may be frustrated, but I simply admitted how ignorant I was of this portion of the law, and then said how nice it is to have CalGuns members to correct me.

If you're upset with me, I can't possibly see why.

CrippledPidgeon
12-14-2008, 10:07 PM
short version...

Flash hider reduces the Decibel.. hence it is considered a "Silencer".

the Muzzlebreak on my pre-ban DSARM SA58 carbine extinguishes the Flash signature pretty well, but it is louder than a Freaking Mofo!

The definition of a flash hider that you wrote here is so mixed up that I had to read it twice.

So let's get it straight.

Flash hiders reduce the flash that the shooter sees by dispersing some of the gases out through ports in the side of the hider (and lots of times, the internal profile is shaped like a cone so that the gases traveling forward also disperse faster). Because the gases are spread out by the flash hider, they mix more easily with the outside air, temperature is reduced, and burning powder is extinguished more quickly. The sound of firing is generally not significantly reduced.

Sound suppressors can significantly reduce the level of noise that a shot produces by trapping and slowing the escaping gases within the suppressor body. This produces secondary flash suppression characteristics, but is not the primary purpose of the suppressor.

16" AR with an A2 flash hider.
http://itchy.smugmug.com/photos/436879313_kGZnZ-L.jpg

Muzzle brakes usually don't extinguish flash (for the shooter) because the gasses are redirected backwards to reduce recoil (like a rocket). The faster the gasses are moving when they exit the brake, the better the recoil reduction. So inside of the brake is generally has a slightly larger diameter than the bore so that less gases escape forward and more is forced through the side ports. These ports are designed to shoot the gas in a stream pointed back and to the sides, less air mixes with the stream, so the powder stays burning longer, increasing the flash for the shooter, and directs more concussion back and to the sides, making a muzzle brake sound louder to the shooter.

The same 16" AR (some modifications later) with a muzzle brake
http://itchy.smugmug.com/photos/436879289_mrNXi-L.jpg

The combination hider/brake produces some recoil reduction, and some flash reduction, but is not nearly as effective for either side as a dedicated flash hider or muzzle brake.

But as uclaplinker said, there's a lot of blurring between lines, and depend largely on how the muzzle attachment is marketed.