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opos
12-16-2016, 1:39 PM
Just a general question...I know there is a difference in the burn rates of the 2 powders but similar...I have a 25-06 I load with the IMR and have gotten great results with it...I've just never even looked at H 4350 as I get along fine with the IMR. I watch things here on the board and other places and seem to see a huge preference for the H 4350 over the IMR...is it a specific difference or more "brand snobbery" at work? I don't have any of the H 4350 and my question is just for general information...My 7 x 57 uses 4831SC and again no reason to ever try other things even though there are many "recipes" calling for H 4350..Does it have to do with the way it burns in things like a .223? I know many folks load .223's which I don't so that may be the big push for the H4350..

Just a rainy afternoon time killer.

NapalmCheese
12-16-2016, 1:53 PM
In some unscientific observations of my own, H is more available locally than IMR, thus I go with H.

pennstater
12-16-2016, 1:58 PM
opos,
In my 25-06, I've only used H-4831sc with a 120gr Hornady HP bullet. This is the powder that gives me my most accurate loads. MV is avg 2950+. Some other powders worked, just not as good as H-4831sc. At least in my rifle.
Ruger MKII S/S.

pacrat
12-16-2016, 5:51 PM
That depends entirely on who you ask. This BR chart from Hodgdon lists the 2 as #111 and #112.

http://www.lasc.us/BurnRatePrint.htm

The newer Hodgdon chart they are only separated by one other powder out of 148. At #114 and #116.

For all practical purposes they are the same powder. And today made by the same company.

Back in the days when old farts like us were young studs, and the dinos had just vacated the earth. There was only One 4350 and it was made by IMR Dupont.

Then came Hodgdon, who as an enterprising individual after WW11. Bought up huge multi ton lots of SURPLUS IMR powders from the government. Repackaged them in smaller containers, and sold them to reloaders as "H" designated powders. Same as IMR made by IMR, sold by Hodgdon in plain jane cans with generic labels.

Today in history, Hodgdon, bought IMR from Dupont. So whether you buy the "H" or the "IMR" version you are still getting the same powder with 2 different names.

FLIGHT762
12-16-2016, 6:21 PM
For all practical purposes they are the same powder. And today made by the same company.

Today in history, Hodgdon, bought IMR from Dupont. So whether you buy the "H" or the "IMR" version you are still getting the same powder with 2 different names.

IMR 4350 is manufactured in Valleyfield Canada by General Dynamics.

H-4350 (AR2209) is manufactured in Australia by ADI (Australian Defense Industries). Two different powders manufactured in different Countries.

H-4350 is a temperature stable powder, IMR 4350 is not. Many reloaders prefer the H-4350 because of the temperature stability.


Hodgdon does not own the IMR powder plant. General Dynamics does.

Hodgdon has the distribution rights for IMR, Hodgdon and Winchester powders in the United States.

Top Cat
12-16-2016, 6:21 PM
So whether you buy the "H" or the "IMR" version you are still getting the same powder with 2 different names.
Well I'll have to politely disagree...they are similar but not identical.

IMR-4350 and H-4350 are two completely different powders. IMR-4350 is made by IMR in Canada, and H-4350 is made for Hodgdon by ADI in Australia using different processes.

Even though the two powders are half a world apart as to where they are made, they do end up with a similar burn rate...similar but not identical.

If a reloader understands what similar but not identical burn rate is referring to, then they will understand it means that loading data will not be exactly the same, and one cannot interchange data between the two.

Use the loading data info for the powder you are working with to work up your loads.

Having said that, it turns out that H-4350 is less sensitive to temperature changes than IMR-4350, due to the different process, but both powders are better in that regard than many other powders like RL-15 for example.

Both are excellent powders.

Btw, that Hodgdon burn rate chart is more of a general list and is not an accurate measurement of a powder's relative quickness based on placement on the list, and contains some errors in my own personal assessment, so one cannot rely on it to develop loading data.

Fortunately, Hodgdon provides an excellent resource for the reloader on their site...free to all.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

bigdawg86
12-16-2016, 6:27 PM
I went with IMR 4451 because it's between H4350 and IMR4350 on the burn chart and temperature stable supposedly... Plus powder valley had it in Stock. I'm getting 2766FPS average in my 6.5 Creedmoor 24" barrel using 140g Barnes Match Burner and 40.5g IMR 4451, no pressure signs, while under max load. Figured not bad considering Hornady factory 140g is at 2710FPS.

pennstater
12-16-2016, 8:24 PM
That depends entirely on who you ask. This BR chart from Hodgdon lists the 2 as #111 and #112.

http://www.lasc.us/BurnRatePrint.htm

The newer Hodgdon chart they are only separated by one other powder out of 148. At #114 and #116.

For all practical purposes they are the same powder. And today made by the same company.

Back in the days when old farts like us were young studs, and the dinos had just vacated the earth. There was only One 4350 and it was made by IMR Dupont.

Then came Hodgdon, who as an enterprising individual after WW11. Bought up huge multi ton lots of SURPLUS IMR powders from the government. Repackaged them in smaller containers, and sold them to reloaders as "H" designated powders. Same as IMR made by IMR, sold by Hodgdon in plain jane cans with generic labels.

Today in history, Hodgdon, bought IMR from Dupont. So whether you buy the "H" or the "IMR" version you are still getting the same powder with 2 different names.

That's a laugh. As others here have stated, similar, but, NOT the same powder.

jandmtv
12-17-2016, 5:20 AM
The short answer is IMR4350 sucks. It's not temp stable. If you can't find unicorn dust (H4350) then go with IMR4451. It is just as temp stable as unicorn dust and has nearly the same burn rate. A very good substitute that's easier to find.

bigdawg86
12-17-2016, 7:09 AM
The short answer is IMR4350 sucks. It's not temp stable. If you can't find unicorn dust (H4350) then go with IMR4451. It is just as temp stable as unicorn dust and has nearly the same burn rate. A very good substitute that's easier to find.
Although 4451 is much more expensive... But I've had good results with my semiautomatic Creedmoor build. I personally liked the temp stable part because I will shoot strings faster than a bolt gun and be more likely to cook my ammo while chambered.

opos
12-17-2016, 8:16 AM
Thanks folks...looks like the temp stability is a factor...I shoot single rounds in a target setting only so temp stability and "cooking rounds in the magazine" would not matter much in my sheltered world...like I said I just wondered what made the H 4350 "unicorn dust"..thanks again

silvertriple
12-20-2016, 10:24 PM
Lots of shooters are finding H4350 very consistent in their 6.5 Creedmoor's, making it a very popular choice right now. I use H4350 and it is very consistent and shoots great in my rifle. The H version is no where to be found on shelves. Have not tried the IMR version.

Back when I was a newbie reloader, working up my very first loads for my 6.5x55 I elected to try IMR4831. As a newbie loader, I paid very close attention to how the powder reacted to outside temperature and chamber temp while working up my loads. I noticed enough variation to not stay with IMR4831 and ended up using H4831, which to me just seemed way more stable through all conditions.

Desertdoc
12-21-2016, 8:50 AM
H4350? With the very smart marketing campaign by Hornady, listing H4350 on the flap of an ammo box and saying the load could be replicated by using H4350, people went nuts. They never said it was the same powder used, not once, if I recall correctly. Now it is hard to get, pricy when you can find it.

So, H4350? Don't want it or need it. Reloader 17 is perfect for MY 6.5 Creedmoor. I have had loaded ammo in the direct sun, in 90f weather and my SD is about 5.0 FPS. Temp sensitive? Hardly. I get far better velocity. Reloader 17 is cheaper, and easier to get. If I look around I can find it for about $100 for a 5lb keg. Pushes my 140 SMK with ease to 1K. Load with 40.7 of RL 17. Drop the SMK, load with the 143Gr Hornady and at 2880MV, it is my Elk load.

silvertriple
12-21-2016, 10:27 PM
Yep, rl17 will yield ~ 100 fps more than H powders. One day I may go back to that.

Desertdoc
12-21-2016, 10:53 PM
Yep, rl17 will yield ~ 100 fps more than H powders. One day I may go back to that.

For sure. As soon as people back off of H4350's nutz, and realize it is not the powder everyone thinks it is, well they may see there are much better powders out there.

Does this mean H4350 does not work? Of course not. But, it is not the powder in the factory loads like EVERYONE thinks it is.

Simple fact. Call Hornady and ask if you doubt. Did Hornady give you a vague answer? LOL. A vague answer on the phone about H4350, but FACT on a box of factory ammo? HAHAHHAHAHHA