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Capybara
12-12-2016, 5:32 PM
Is there an affordable, readily available inert analog for smokeless powder for when you need to train reloading without smokeless powder?

Capt.Dunsel
12-12-2016, 6:33 PM
Is there an affordable, readily available inert binary for smokeless powder for when you need to train reloading without smokeless powder?

If all your doing is teaching someone the basics try cream of wheat or malt-o-meal .

Can run through a powder measure , doesn't go boom .

Top Cat
12-12-2016, 7:29 PM
So you will end up with a bunch of rounds with live primers filled with sawdust...?

Not only is that a waste but those rounds would be dangerous if mixed in with live ones.

Reloading isn't all that hard.

I taught myself to load at 11 years old with no adult supervision, (there were no adults around to supervise), and without mishap by reading the Gun magazines at the time and a Lyman reloading manual.

My first rounds were better than factory ammo and cheaper than 22LR.

Really, it's not that hard to learn.

Read the manual twice and load once.

bubbala
12-12-2016, 10:07 PM
So you will end up with a bunch of rounds with live primers filled with sawdust...?

Not only is that a waste but those rounds would be dangerous if mixed in with live ones.

Reloading isn't all that hard.

I taught myself to load at 11 years old with no adult supervision, (there were no adults around to supervise), and without mishap by reading the Gun magazines at the time and a Lyman reloading manual.

My first rounds were better than factory ammo and cheaper than 22LR.

Really, it's not that hard to learn.

Read the manual twice and load once.

He told you dummy.:p

Cream of wheat is the preferred substitute. I've been saving spent primers, but do we really what to run them through the tools?

wbunning
12-13-2016, 6:32 AM
So you will end up with a bunch of rounds with live primers filled with sawdust...?

Not only is that a waste but those rounds would be dangerous if mixed in with live ones.

Reloading isn't all that hard.

I taught myself to load at 11 years old with no adult supervision, (there were no adults around to supervise), and without mishap by reading the Gun magazines at the time and a Lyman reloading manual.

My first rounds were better than factory ammo and cheaper than 22LR.

Really, it's not that hard to learn.

Read the manual twice and load once.

Read OP's entire post again, including his sig line.

smoothy8500
12-13-2016, 8:03 AM
Read OP's entire post again, including his sig line.

He needs to "dumb it down" for the average Calguns reader. With all that jargon it's like listening to a psychologist speaking. "I need a powder substitute for teaching a class" turned into "the locus of control exhibiting maladaptive behavior due to an external stressor".

Capybara
12-13-2016, 8:19 AM
Top Cat, been reloading a while. Am looking for a substitute that ideally looks like and meters like gun powder, a true analog, if one exists, not just a substitute. Pretty difficult to precisely weigh and meter sawdust. Cream of wheat, fine ground litter, sand or crushed walnut shells would all probably come close to working but ideally something gray or black like most smokeless powder. We will be reloading with spent primers and all rounds will be color coded. With a spent primer, if the round was accidentally loaded and firing was attempted, nothing would happen. The rounds are for teaching, not shooting.

Smoothy 8500, no offense, as a reloading instructor, when it comes to teaching reloading, it's not wise to "dumb things down". This is why we use terms like cannelure, ogive, COAL, etc. It's not to exercise the english language, it's so that we all speak a common language that is precise and correct, pretty standard stuff in any kind of engineering, science, or mechanics. Those who don't know what I am talking about probably wouldn't have the answer I am looking for and those who do (not sure how many threads you read here but there are plenty of reloaders here who have a deep, encyclopedic amount of knowledge about reloading), probably would have a useful answer, it's a self-managing parameter. We use the correct terminology so as to avoid confusion which can lead to mistakes which can lead to guns blowing up and reloaders being injured.

Talk to our buddies on the long range shooting thread and see if they use terms like "target hittin'" and "straight shootin'" over the correct, universally accepted terminology like ballistic coefficient, bullet drop, windage, elevation, etc. Reloading is no different.

Capybara
12-13-2016, 8:25 AM
Cream of wheat is the preferred substitute. I've been saving spent primers, but do we really what to run them through the tools?

Have you actually tried metering Cream of Wheat? I haven't but I will try. Of course, the anally retentive part of me would prefer something that looks like smokeless powder.

Also, CSA and I came up with the idea of seating spent primers. Have not tried that yet, but I will be. BTW, keep saving your spent primers. There are some new plans for being able to teach the new classes with fewer instructors since we have a hard time pulling enough instructors and the entire class will be "together" doing the same operation at the same time, not like before.

AAShooter
12-13-2016, 8:31 AM
Corn meal is commonly used.

Capybara
12-13-2016, 8:50 AM
Corn meal is commonly used.

I'll raid the wife's baking cabinet and will give that a try too. Thanks!

mrkubota
12-13-2016, 9:01 AM
When as was at Dillon's store in Scottsdale, AZ. a few years ago, they had some of thier presses set up with some kind of powder substitute so you could actually make some cartridges with the display. Perhaps a call to them would be fruitfull.

Capt.Dunsel
12-13-2016, 9:21 AM
If you want it too look like powder another idea would be black sand ( for animal tanks), can be found at pet supply stores .

It is inert , black like powder and would meter pretty well . Little expensive for the use , but better fits your need .

jimmykan
12-13-2016, 9:28 AM
Maybe some graphite powder or granules?

It would lubricated the powder dispenser too.

https://www.graphitestore.com/items_list.asp?action=prod&prd_id=34&cat_id=28&curPage=1

lazyworm
12-13-2016, 9:32 AM
what about coffee grounds?

jimmykan
12-13-2016, 9:42 AM
what about coffee grounds?

That would smell gooooood

bubbala
12-13-2016, 9:48 AM
BTW as i told CSA ,if we use dead primers and powder substitute, i see no reason we can't have classes at my place again.

someoneeasy
12-13-2016, 9:55 AM
Activated charcoal would probably work. I have some right now that I'm working with at work and one is similar to ball powder and the other similar to extruded powder.

How much are you needing? I might be able to "spill" some into a box for you ;)

Bumslie
12-13-2016, 3:30 PM
Some people here :facepalm:

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Barbarossa
12-13-2016, 3:34 PM
what about black silica sand?

https://www.google.com/#q=black+silica+sand&tbm=shop

AAShooter
12-13-2016, 3:51 PM
When as was at Dillon's store in Scottsdale, AZ. a few years ago, they had some of thier presses set up with some kind of powder substitute so you could actually make some cartridges with the display. Perhaps a call to them would be fruitfull.

They make inert powder. It just isn't cheap.

readysetgo
12-13-2016, 3:57 PM
If you want it too look like powder another idea would be black sand ( for animal tanks), can be found at pet supply stores .

It is inert , black like powder and would meter pretty well . Little expensive for the use , but better fits your need .
Sand is bad. Gonna grind up your gear.

I've never reloaded and can definitely confirm topcat is twice the man we'll ever be. :43:

Doesn't everyone mine their own lead ore?!

:chris:

Capt.Dunsel
12-13-2016, 7:48 PM
Sand is bad. Gonna grind up your gear.

I've never reloaded and can definitely confirm topcat is twice the man we'll ever be. :43:

Doesn't everyone mine their own lead ore?!

:chris:

The black sand isn't really sand ( gotta be safe enough for critters to eat).
it is softer than what you all think. :p

Top Cat
12-14-2016, 3:42 AM
Ok I didn't have a complete picture of what you were doing or that you were teaching a class or using spent primers.

How about going to Whole Foods and looking around in the bulk bins, I'm thinking to try some small seeds like poppy seeds or celery seeds are about the right size. If celery seed were gray it would look a lot like autocomp.

I would dry them for an hour or two in the sun. You can put a pound in the tumbler with a teaspoon of powdered graphite to darken it and help it flow.

Just other thoughts of things to try out.

BillyGoatCrawler
12-14-2016, 7:54 AM
Chia seeds from a place like whole foods or the nugget. Google them.

They're black/brownish and are granules like smokeless powder is. About 1/20 the size of a grain of rice or so.

Metal God
12-14-2016, 9:34 AM
I understand wanting it to look real but i'd keep the cream of wheat it's natural color . For the same reasons you color code everthing elss . The other thing i'd do was use something that can breakdown . Sand or other very hard materials can lock up or wear out some tools . Lee comes to mind with all there plastic powders measures .

BillyGoatCrawler
12-14-2016, 10:14 AM
Chia seeds from a place like whole foods or the nugget. Google them.

They're black/brownish and are granules like smokeless powder is. About 1/20 the size of a grain of rice or so.

Here's a pic of the Chia seeds. They should be easy on the equipment too since they will shear before hurting the metal drum as it cycles to drop powder.

http://www.superfoods-for-superhealth.com/images/black-chia-seeds.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zE5eHuaGAG0/maxresdefault.jpg

readysetgo
12-14-2016, 10:20 AM
Termite poop!

jimmykan
12-14-2016, 11:36 AM
Chia seeds, what a good idea.

Looks like gunpowder, AND high in Omega-3 :D

someoneeasy
12-14-2016, 12:16 PM
Here is the activated charcoal I'm working with right now. Let me know if you want some of it sent your way.

http://www.kureha.co.jp/en/carbon/product/images/bac_ph002.jpg

stilly
12-14-2016, 3:20 PM
Is there an affordable, readily available inert analog for smokeless powder for when you need to train reloading without smokeless powder?

Yes. But no. Just reload man. Do not be afraid. Learn it and OWN what you do.

FLIGHT762
12-14-2016, 5:48 PM
Poppy seeds. Check the bulk sections of Winco, Whole foods.

Chris M
12-14-2016, 5:59 PM
I don't know how you feel about putting salt through your dispenser, but...

http://www.sfsalt.com/black-hawaiian-sea-salt

http://fk.b5z.net/i/u/2182313/i/HAWAIIAN-LAVA-SEA-SALT-BULK.jpg

Capybara
12-14-2016, 6:03 PM
You're funny Stilly. This is to stay in ATF and CADOJ compliance for us teaching reloading to our students. ATF has decided that our reloading clubs, because we accept donations to pay for lunch, buying components and paying our instructors $20.00 for gas for driving up from LA, we can no longer let our students "manufacture ammo" without us becoming an FFL06, which isn't happening. Using spent primers and and an analog for smokeless powder means that our students won't be manufacturing ammo, they will be creating training aids.

As for me, I've owned what I do for quite a few years, I'll be using smokeless powder and rocking on.

Yes. But no. Just reload man. Do not be afraid. Learn it and OWN what you do.

Capt.Dunsel
12-14-2016, 6:05 PM
Yes. But no. Just reload man. Do not be afraid. Learn it and OWN what you do.

You have a reading comprehension problem ? Or do you only read the last post before typing ?

Please check his signature line :facepalm:

I thought we went through this a few posts back .

Oh yeah , it was Stilly posting again .

Capybara
12-14-2016, 6:09 PM
Lots of great ideas here gang, thanks for the input. I will be conducting an experimental panel to try out several of these suggestions to see what works best, looks most like and behaves most like smokeless powder through a powder measure. Will report back on our results. Thought about it and ATF had no problem with our students manufacturing ammo if there was not money changing hands but as soon as the Prop 63 ammo regs kick in, we are back to square one. Then our students would be acquiring ammunition illegally because it was not bought through a certified ammunition vendor. Sense a pattern at work here in California?

montana
12-14-2016, 6:32 PM
Graphite for extruded... i.e. Mech pencil lead. Not sure where you could get it in quantity.

rogdigity
12-14-2016, 7:20 PM
What if you mixed cream of wheat or corn meal with graphite powder? Im sure you could add enough ti darken the corn meal or COW.

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CSACANNONEER
12-14-2016, 7:29 PM
When as was at Dillon's store in Scottsdale, AZ. a few years ago, they had some of thier presses set up with some kind of powder substitute so you could actually make some cartridges with the display. Perhaps a call to them would be fruitfull.

Calling is a great idea. I'm planning on going to SHOT so, I will ask Dillon along with other press manufacturers for ideas.


Here is the activated charcoal I'm working with right now. Let me know if you want some of it sent your way.

http://www.kureha.co.jp/en/carbon/product/images/bac_ph002.jpg

This looks VERY promising. Does it leave charcoal residue all over? The picture leads me to believe it doesn't. How much does it cost? What is the size of each granular? Can you get different sizes? How large of quantities are usually sold? Is it sold by the gram, ounce, lb or 50lb sack?

someoneeasy
12-15-2016, 1:03 AM
Calling is a great idea. I'm planning on going to SHOT so, I will ask Dillon along with other press manufacturers for ideas.




This looks VERY promising. Does it leave charcoal residue all over? The picture leads me to believe it doesn't. How much does it cost? What is the size of each granular? Can you get different sizes? How large of quantities are usually sold? Is it sold by the gram, ounce, lb or 50lb sack?

It doesn't leave charcoal residue all over and we get them in 50lb sacks. I will bring some home so I can take a comparison picture for you next to some powder so you can get an idea.

TMB 1
12-15-2016, 2:00 AM
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=color+sprinkles&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadid=14303754596&hvqmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_78eki11k5i_b

CSACANNONEER
12-15-2016, 7:29 AM
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=color+sprinkles&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadid=14303754596&hvqmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_78eki11k5i_b

A great way to show different types of powder (flake, ball, extruded, etc.).

bubbala
12-15-2016, 7:48 AM
again my 2 cents, if it meters and weighs even close who cares what color it is.
in fact, an off color might work out better.

AAShooter
12-15-2016, 11:17 AM
again my 2 cents, if it meters and weighs even close who cares what color it is.
in fact, an off color might work out better.

From someone that works with regular smokeless powder and inert smokeless powder, different colors would be nice to make it more obvious which is which.

Capybara
12-15-2016, 5:14 PM
In our situation, whatever we use as "powder" moving forward will be all that we have at our teaching facility so no worries about mixing it up since we cannot "reload" anymore legally.

BillyGoatCrawler
12-15-2016, 5:59 PM
In our situation, whatever we use as "powder" moving forward will be all that we have at our teaching facility so no worries about mixing it up since we cannot "reload" anymore legally.

well, thanks for teaching those who want to learn and keeping the 2A alive.

Metal God
12-15-2016, 6:25 PM
You know I was just thinking that since you're not loading actual live rounds and you are teaching . Maybe you want a powder substitute that works well but will fail more often then real powder . I know I've had long extruded powder fail to drop do to it bridging in the hopper . Maybe some long grain rice that will be more likely to bridge so the students can see it happen and see how important it is to watch everything going on .

Then there's the always fun , "BANG YOUR DEAD" statement when you see they failed to notice the mistake lol .

My thinking here is since you now will have no liability for them double charging or missing a powder charge . Then going and shooting those rounds . Why not actually make some parts of the reloading fail on purpose as a teaching aid .

Capybara
12-16-2016, 8:59 PM
I think we are onto something here...:D

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/Screen%20Shot%202016-12-16%20at%208.57.49%20PM%20%20December%2016_zpsn5krw vqe.jpg

JagerDog
12-16-2016, 11:11 PM
I like the ground coffee idea. On the coarse side might be preferred. However it can be oily and stick. Dried out might be better.

Much of smokeless powder is graphited. That's where much of the color comes from.

Not a Cook
12-17-2016, 12:58 AM
Lots of great ideas here gang, thanks for the input. I will be conducting an experimental panel to try out several of these suggestions to see what works best, looks most like and behaves most like smokeless powder through a powder measure. Will report back on our results. Thought about it and ATF had no problem with our students manufacturing ammo if there was not money changing hands but as soon as the Prop 63 ammo regs kick in, we are back to square one. Then our students would be acquiring ammunition illegally because it was not bought through a certified ammunition vendor. Sense a pattern at work here in California?
Hmm... IF no money officially changes hands, and IF students bring all our own components (and maybe even our own presses?)... :chris:

(Please forgive me for not recalling immediately off-the-top-of-my-head with all the garbage props we've had to deal with) But when does Prop 63 kick-in - January 1, 2018?

Either way, THANK YOU for working on a way to help a few more of us schmucks learn/re-learn basic reloading hands-on.

Capybara
12-17-2016, 6:32 AM
Hmm... IF no money officially changes hands, and IF students bring all our own components (and maybe even our own presses?)... :chris:

(Please forgive me for not recalling immediately off-the-top-of-my-head with all the garbage props we've had to deal with) But when does Prop 63 kick-in - January 1, 2018?

Either way, THANK YOU for working on a way to help a few more of us schmucks learn/re-learn basic reloading hands-on.

That's the challenge. Some money needs to change hands so we can feed our students lunch, so the instructors get reimbursed for their gas for driving from LA out to Camarillo, etc. If we had a rich benefactor, we could and would do it for free, but we don't. Know anyone? :D We'd probably need about $1,000.00 per year to put on three or four classes, although if we were still doing it the old way, we have to keep buying components too. If we do it the new way, we will only teach reloading using 9mm for pistol and .223 for rifle and we already have everything we need except for the smokeless powder substitute and trading in all of our other caliber dies and shell holders and components just for 9mm and .223.

BigBronco
12-17-2016, 10:46 AM
It doesn't leave charcoal residue all over and we get them in 50lb sacks. I will bring some home so I can take a comparison picture for you next to some powder so you can get an idea.

Any chance I could get some form you? I am fairly local to you, Beach Imperial area.

Kappy
12-17-2016, 11:18 AM
I wouldn't worry about the color. In fact, I'd go with something colored differently so that it doesn't get mixed up. If you get a grain of something white mixed into your actual powder because it stuck in your thrower, you'd want to know.

Thanks for instructing in reloading. There are far too few instructors in that discipline.


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JagerDog
12-17-2016, 11:27 AM
That's the challenge. Some money needs to change hands so we can feed our students lunch, so the instructors get reimbursed for their gas for driving from LA out to Camarillo, etc. If we had a rich benefactor, we could and would do it for free, but we don't. Know anyone? :D We'd probably need about $1,000.00 per year to put on three or four classes, although if we were still doing it the old way, we have to keep buying components too. If we do it the new way, we will only teach reloading using 9mm for pistol and .223 for rifle and we already have everything we need except for the smokeless powder substitute and trading in all of our other caliber dies and shell holders and components just for 9mm and .223.

Can you have a roach coach show up for lunch?

someoneeasy
12-19-2016, 6:59 AM
Any chance I could get some form you? I am fairly local to you, Beach Imperial area.

Yes, just let me know how much you need and I can get some to you.

the_tunaman
12-19-2016, 7:35 AM
As for loading spent primers, I've ran them through my 550, and my MEC 9000, and they seat just fine. I haven't run a batch through the feed tube or primer tray, but expect that they would feed just fine.

This is a great concept, and good to see the craft being carried forward. Good luck!