AOW Idea... Tell me if I am Crazy...

[NSR500]

AOWs have been successfully processed now in California by several members. Most of the ones I've seen talked about and posted have been Shotgun based. After seeing vandal's AK pistol get AOW'd I began to think about pistol based AOWs. Obvious ones are AR Pistols, and HK SP89 types, but what about something straight from Left Field?

A 1911 or other pistol based AOW?

I know from being a member here for the last 2yrs that many members would like an STI or something like that, that has not been Certified via the Safe Handgun List.
So, what if one of our Out of State FFL7/SOT2 builds a 1911 AOW based on a 1911 STI frame?
An AOW does not always have to have it's forward grip right? An AOW can also have a Threaded Barrel right? So say you want an HK MK23... You throw a forward grip on it and make it an AOW, and you can have it in California without a neutered barrel, right?
When you go to the range you can take the forward grip off and shoot it like a pistol or keep the grip on and get weird looks. The only issue I see is resale because the buyer would have to do the whole NFA thing.

So, does this idea have merit, or is it not worth it?

[monkey]

Nope. AOW doesn't mean you are free of the CA AW laws. A threaded barrel on a Mk23 means it's an AW despite being NFA.

[NSR500]

Ok... Well we can scratch the Threaded Barrels then, but does everything else sound Kosher?

[bdsmchs]

I think it's an awesome idea.

One of the things that annoys the hell out of my right now is this fad of "tacti-failing" anything and everything. I see more 1911 models now with rails than without.

But it would be awesome if there was a VFG on that rail :)

As long as there is no threaded barrel, this would be a legal way of importing pistols we can't normally get (as far as I know) due to the roster.

[dragonbait1a]

Can a CA manufacturing FFL create feature based AWs? if so can they also create AOWs under federal and state law? Maybe you don't need to go out of state after all.

If the above is true thenn consider the following:

A CA mfg FFL imports XYZ unrostered pistol. Adds forward grip by hook or crook (longer barrel and clamp-on grip, VFG on a rail, whatever) and registers the AOW on the NFA registry. Cal Gunner inquires about purchasing said AOW. CG does all the required NFA work. FFL removes forward grip and sells Cal the AOW. 5$ transfer tax.

I'm really not up on the manufacturing FFLs and regulations, but I think a few members here are manufacturers and may be able to correct my mistakes.

RGB

[uzigalil]

Ok how about if you have a AW registered HK sp-89 and you buy a HK Briefcase to go with it ?

[alex00]

The magazine would have to be fixed in order to run the foregrip. It is one of the features, like a threaded barrel, that define an Assault Weapon in California on detachable magazine pistols. Just like with the AR Pistols having to run fixed magazines, adding an AOW does not get away from the SB23 features.

I like DragonBait's idea of having the FFL remove the VFG before transfer. I think that would work. But you could never put it back on in CA, without a fixed magazine.

[uclaplinker]

Won't work

The certification list includes: "12130. (a) Any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person manufactured in this state, imported into the state for sale, kept for sale, or offered or exposed for sale, shall be tested within a reasonable period of time by an independent laboratory certified pursuant to subdivision"

It would need a locked mag, as well, for the 2nd handgrip (AW feature).

Ok how about if you have a AW registered HK sp-89 and you buy a HK Briefcase to go with it ?

Concealed firearms are illegal, as well.

[ke6guj]

Ok how about if you have a AW registered HK sp-89 and you buy a HK Briefcase to go with it ?If you have an AW registered SP-89 and can get a CLEO sign-off on a Form 1, you should be able to AOW it which would allow you to put a VFG on it and also put it in one of those covert briefcases.

Now, your AW registration would most likely be in your name, not in a trust, since those weren't common 10 years ago, so you would have to actually get a CLEO sign-off, no transferring the AW to the trust in order to bypass the sign-off.

[NSR500]

So as long as you comply with SB 23 it should be okay?
A 1911 with mag lock like the Prince 50 or BB and a VFG sold as an AOW. When the 1911 has the VFG on it, the mag lock has to be run otherwise it is an AW. When the VFG is off, as long as there are no other offending SB 23 features, it can be shot like a pistol and mags can drop as normal.
Are those assumptions in the right direction?

[ke6guj]

Don't see anything wrong with that, with maybe the exception of "sold as an AOW". We haven't been able to find local Class 3 dealers that will do anything Form 4 related yet. And, I believe that hte Roster applies as well as the Pistol AW regs.

[uclaplinker]

If you have an AW registered SP-89 and can get a CLEO sign-off on a Form 1, you should be able to AOW it which would allow you to put a VFG on it and also put it in one of those covert briefcases.

Now, your AW registration would most likely be in your name, not in a trust, since those weren't common 10 years ago, so you would have to actually get a CLEO sign-off, no transferring the AW to the trust in order to bypass the sign-off.

Jack, are you sure about that? How do you get around 12020? My reading is 12020 prohibits a firearm from being in any container from which it can be fired. I don't see any provisions that would allow otherwise, unless NFA allows them... ? My Fed law experience pales to yours.


12020. (a) Any person in this state who does
any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any
cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any
firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container,

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the
following:
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection
(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States
Code and which is in the possession of a person
permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal
Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as
amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
Any person prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or
12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing these
weapons who obtains title to these weapons by bequest
or intestate succession may retain title for not more than
one year, but actual possession of these weapons at any
time is punishable pursuant to Section 12021, 12021.1,
or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code. Within the year, the
person shall transfer title to the weapons by sale, gift, or
other disposition. Any person who violates this
paragraph is in violation of subdivision (a). The
exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply
to pen guns.

[ke6guj]

Jack, are you sure about that? How do you get around 12020? My reading is 12020 prohibits a firearm from being in any container from which it can be fired. I don't see any provisions that would allow otherwise.WAs just thinking about that. That actually might be one of those deals where a registered AOW exemption does not apply.

CA and FED come at the covert briefcases from different angles. The briefcase by itself is not regulated on the FED side, just its possession with the pistol that can be used inside it. If the handgun is registered as an AOW, then it can be used inside the briefcase. So can an MG be used in the briefcase.

However, it appears that CA may ban the covert briefcase directly, and since the briefcase itself is not registered as an AOW, there may not be a way to use the firearm's AOW exemption to cover the briefcase.