PDA

View Full Version : Can I swap out bayonet for detachable mags on an sks?


jlh95811
10-03-2008, 12:29 AM
So yeah,
I was looking over the Assault Weapon ID Chart and it shows that a rifle may have a detachable magazine so long as it does not have any other no-no features.

So if I was to hack off and grind the bayo lug could I legally convert it to accept 10 round detachable mags?

Lateralus
10-03-2008, 12:53 AM
So yeah,
I was looking over the Assault Weapon ID Chart and it shows that a rifle may have a detachable magazine so long as it does not have any other no-no features.

So if I was to hack off and grind the bayo lug could I legally convert it to accept 10 round detachable mags?

The bayo lug was a no-no under the federal assault weapon act that is now expired. Use it all you want with detachable mags and no other evil features.

Bowser
10-03-2008, 1:03 AM
I thought any SKS with a detachable magazine was illegal in CA.

http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/contracosta/FaxAlerts/sksalert.shtml

bigthaiboy
10-03-2008, 1:05 AM
A bayonet or bayonet lug has no relevance to CA AW laws. The bayonet lug was a relic of the Federal AW ban which sunsetted in 2004.

The SKS with detachable magazines is specifically listed as an assault weapon in CA. Unless you have a Yugo Zastava M59/66 which is not an SKS, but more of a SKS pattern rifle, then you can have a detachable mag.
If you have a M59/66 with a detachable mag, then you have to make your rifle 922(r) compliant.

jlh95811
10-03-2008, 1:35 AM
A bayonet or bayonet lug has no relevance to CA AW laws. The bayonet lug was a relic of the Federal AW ban which sunsetted in 2004.

The SKS with detachable magazines is specifically listed as an assault weapon in CA. Unless you have a Yugo Zastava M59/66 which is not an SKS, but more of a SKS pattern rifle, then you can have a detachable mag.
If you have a M59/66 with a detachable mag, then you have to make your rifle 922(r) compliant.


Huh?

oaklander
10-03-2008, 1:47 AM
http://www.milsurpstuff.com/922r%20Compliance%20Info.htm

bigthaiboy
10-03-2008, 1:50 AM
Huh?

Confused already? :rolleyes: 922(r) : http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rParts

aplinker
10-03-2008, 1:59 AM
I'm a bit baffled...

The flowchart is using a type 1 AW list that's not the same as the PC I use (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php).

According to the PC all SKS rifles (not just Norincos) would be type 1 AW.

(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47,
AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
9933
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.
(2) UZI and Galil.
(3) Beretta AR-70.
(4) CETME Sporter.
(5) Colt AR-15 series.
(6) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100,
and AR110 C.
(7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308
Match, and Sporter.
(8) MAS 223.
(9) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, and HK-PSG-1
(10) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M11.
(11) SKS with detachable magazine.
(12) SIG AMT, PE-57, SG 550, and SG 551.
(13) Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48.
(14) Sterling MK-6.
(15) Steyer AUG.
(16) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78S.
(17) Armalite AR-180.
(18) Bushmaster Assault Rifle.
(19) Calico M-900.
(20) J&R ENG M-68.
(21) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2008, 4:46 AM
I'm a bit baffled...

The flowchart is using a type 1 AW list that's not the same as the PC I use (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php).

According to the PC all SKS rifles (not just Norincos) would be type 1 AW.

All rifles which are marked "SKS". Rifles that are not marked "SKS" would be more like a "series" type weapon.

ohsmily
10-03-2008, 8:06 AM
So yeah,
I was looking over the Assault Weapon ID Chart and it shows that a rifle may have a detachable magazine so long as it does not have any other no-no features.

So if I was to hack off and grind the bayo lug could I legally convert it to accept 10 round detachable mags?

You obviously didn't read the flow chart very well. Can you please show me anywhere on there that bayonet lug is listed as an evil feature?

Also, a detachable magazine isn't an "evil feature." Rather, it is a characteristic that subjects a gun to the evil features prohibition. Read the flow chart a few more times.

ohsmily
10-03-2008, 8:07 AM
I'm a bit baffled...

The flowchart is using a type 1 AW list that's not the same as the PC I use (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php).

According to the PC all SKS rifles (not just Norincos) would be type 1 AW.

Are you playing devil's advocate here, or are you unaware of the fact that the Yugo "SKS" is not actually an SKS? Since it isn't an SKS, if you play the 922(r) game and don't have any evil features, you can run a detachable magazine on it.

AJAX22
10-03-2008, 8:15 AM
Yugo sks's are not SKS's, they are zastrava 59's and zastrava 59/66

while they still are a simanov pattern rifle in 7.62x39, they are really not any differnt than an SVT40 as far as legality (thats just a simanov in 7.62x54R)

same thing legally.

If it doesn't say SKS on it, its not an SKS

joemama
10-03-2008, 8:31 AM
so could a post ban chinese sks with a fixed mag have a collapsible stock with a pistol grip? I'm a bit confused too. I know things have changed in the past few years but I think I bought mine in 05 and I was pretty much run out of a store and called a felon for trying to get a bayonet for it. The guys running the place said it would turn my sks into an assault rifle.

Baron
10-03-2008, 8:34 AM
As long as it has a fixed magazine you can do what ever you want... as long as you are 922r compliant. Heck you could even add a 37mm flare launcher:D

motorhead
10-03-2008, 8:50 AM
doesn't the gas cutoff/grenade sight have to be removed from the 59/66?

ohsmily
10-03-2008, 8:59 AM
doesn't the gas cutoff/grenade sight have to be removed from the 59/66?

No. Nothing wrong with the sights or gas cut-off. But, the "grenade launcher" muzzle device must be removed or cut in half, etc...It is considered a grenade launcher under CA (which is ridiculous).

Kokopelli
10-03-2008, 9:48 AM
I have a Yugo 59/66 that I bought from Big5. To shed some weight, I want to remove the bayonet. No grinding off of the bayonet lug or other mods. Is just removing the blade bayonet a "violation" of 922?

Gary

5hundo
10-03-2008, 10:12 AM
All rifles which are marked "SKS". Rifles that are not marked "SKS" would be more like a "series" type weapon.

Not necessarily...

My BWK-92 is legal and it looks just like a Mak-90...

...but it's not!!! :43:

Josh3239
10-03-2008, 10:23 AM
Okay short answer, there is currently no active legislation regarding the allowance or disallowance of bayonets. It is 100% a dead issue federally and 100% a dead issue in this state. If you want you can put a bayonet on your SKS, your Krinker Plinker, or your toaster. It really doesn't matter.

If your SKS is marked SKS then it is an SKS. If it is an SKS you can under zero circumstances have detachable magazines.

If your SKS is marked Zastava then it isn't an SKS it is a Zastava. If it is a Zastava you can have detachable magazines.

so could a post ban chinese sks with a fixed mag have a collapsible stock with a pistol grip? I'm a bit confused too. I know things have changed in the past few years but I think I bought mine in 05 and I was pretty much run out of a store and called a felon for trying to get a bayonet for it. The guys running the place said it would turn my sks into an assault rifle.

You can add the stock and pistol grip but I then believe you have to make your rifle 922(r) compliant. Meaning you won't be able to have more than 10 non-USA parts in your rifle. There are companies that make USA parts for the SKS that will allow you to do this.

As for the store back in 05. You should have told them that the Clinton AW Ban expired 5 years ago.

joemama
10-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Ya I tried to argue the point that they had the same exact rifles in the corner with bayonets but they wouldnt have any of it. Well I guess theres quite a bit more to it than just slapping on the new stock. :*(

jamesob
10-03-2008, 11:25 AM
make sure that your rifle does not say sks on it anywhere. on your import markings it will say what rifle it is i.e romanian, russian sks or yugo59.

aplinker
10-03-2008, 1:00 PM
Are you playing devil's advocate here, or are you unaware of the fact that the Yugo "SKS" is not actually an SKS? Since it isn't an SKS, if you play the 922(r) game and don't have any evil features, you can run a detachable magazine on it.

The OP never specified what type of SKS he has. The Yugo reference comes from another poster.

The issue I'm bringing up is a potential fault in the Flowchart. We have "Norinco SKS w/detachable magazine," but the PC says, "SKS w/detachable magazine." From what I can see this is due to perpetuation of the type 1 AW list originally on the very 1st AW Flowchart.

I'm not an SKS expert - I'm aware there are SKS-types out there not marked SKS, but I don't know if there are SKS marked rifles in addition to Norinco.

If there are, then the flowchart would need to be updated. Understand that I would argue this is yet another series designation, though, since, if there are multiple makes/countries of SKS marked rifles, it no longer is listed by make and model. Just model.

Can anyone who is more aware of SKS-type rifles chime in here? Do we need to update the flowchart or not?

Josh3239
10-03-2008, 1:14 PM
...but I don't know if there are SKS marked rifles in addition to Norinco.

My SKS is marked something to the effect of "Russian SKS 1954" on the left side of the receiver. To my knowledge all Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese and Romanian SKS's are specifically marked "SKS" somewhere.

Can anyone who is more aware of SKS-type rifles chime in here? Do we need to update the flowchart or not?

If the flowchart only mentions that Norinco SKS's cannot have detachable magazines that is wrong. Anything marked SKS cannot have detachable magazines.

GuyW
10-03-2008, 1:26 PM
As long as it has a fixed magazine you can do what ever you want... as long as you are 922r compliant. Heck you could even add a 37mm flare launcher:D

NOT quite:

"12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds."
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

I had to remove my separately-purchased (Norinco?) fixed 20-rd mag from my Norinco SKS when this stupid law was passed....

GuyW
10-03-2008, 1:28 PM
The bayo lug was a no-no under the federal assault weapon act that is now expired. Use it all you want with detachable mags and no other evil features.

Nice - you going to visit folks in jail that were unwise enuff to follow your advice?

CSACANNONEER
10-03-2008, 2:52 PM
Not necessarily...

My BWK-92 is legal and it looks just like a Mak-90...

...but it's not!!! :43:

Well, I stand behind what I said. In your case, the firearms you have are either listed of AWs due to features. With regards to SKSs, there is a seperate Ca. law that bans all SKSs with detachable magazines. If the rifle is not marked "SKS" then, it can be easily argued that it is not an SKS. Yes, it could be configured in such a way to make it a catagory 3 AW but, that is a different story. The OP needs to be much more familar with all relevant laws before he tries to do anything to his rifle!

EBR Works
10-03-2008, 4:00 PM
Just for yucks I pulled out my Romanian and Albanian Simonov pattern rifles. Nowhere on the rifles are the letters "SKS", even the import stamps. Interesting. So I could have a detachable mag on these as long as I was 922 (r) compliant. Not that I would really ever want to though.

bohoki
10-03-2008, 4:40 PM
i remember an article about 10-15 years ago explaining how to legally use detachable magazines in an sks(not for california)

it involved making the sks similar to what the sks sporter had to do

which was having to grind off the bayonet lug replacing the stock with a montecarlo type or a target thumbhole stock(it was almost like the article was sponsored by ati and combat exchange)
they also cautioned against using any night sights or millitary bipods

they were using the 922r not as a parts game but to make the gun similar to one that was importable(ie the sks sporter)

i'm really sorry i cannot find that article but i got about 13 banker boxes full of guns,g&a,american rifleman,gun world,shooting times it might as well be on the dark side of the moon especially since i dont know which year to even look through

unfortunatly this method will not work on C&R sks type weapons as the only reason they are importable is because they are relics and configuring them in any way other than the way they were imported leaves them in an unimportable condition that is where the 10 parts rule comes in to effect and you have to make the rifle "usa made"

the atf is being very gracious in allowing the yugos to be assembled with a muzzlebrake

they could under their own rules not allow their modification

grammaton76
10-03-2008, 5:34 PM
Nice - you going to visit folks in jail that were unwise enuff to follow your advice?

Folks won't be going to jail following his advice on its face - there may be certain qualifiers he omitted ("make sure it doesn't say SKS" and "take care of 922(r) first"), but he's completely right once those qualifiers have been added.

grammaton76
10-03-2008, 5:37 PM
i remember an article about 10-15 years ago explaining how to legally use detachable magazines in an sks(not for california)

it involved making the sks similar to what the sks sporter had to do

which was having to grind off the bayonet lug replacing the stock with a montecarlo type or a target thumbhole stock(it was almost like the article was sponsored by ati and combat exchange)
they also cautioned against using any night sights or millitary bipods

they were using the 922r not as a parts game but to make the gun similar to one that was importable(ie the sks sporter)

i'm really sorry i cannot find that article but i got about 13 banker boxes full of guns,g&a,american rifleman,gun world,shooting times it might as well be on the dark side of the moon especially since i dont know which year to even look through

unfortunatly this method will not work on C&R sks type weapons as the only reason they are importable is because they are relics and configuring them in any way other than the way they were imported leaves them in an unimportable condition that is where the 10 parts rule comes in to effect and you have to make the rifle "usa made"

the atf is being very gracious in allowing the yugos to be assembled with a muzzlebrake

they could under their own rules not allow their modification

You might find this to be interesting reading: what constitutes sporting alterations, and what doesn't.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

But please, everyone, turn OFF the dremels and put away the hacksaws, there is no reason to go cutting off your bayonet lugs!

REDHORSE
10-03-2008, 7:01 PM
I'm a bit baffled...

The flowchart is using a type 1 AW list that's not the same as the PC I use (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php).

According to the PC all SKS rifles (not just Norincos) would be type 1 AW.

I got the Norinco... from the Assault Weapon Guide (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf) (Page 83).

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/9205/norincoih3.jpg

In many other pages, it just mentions "SKS with detachable magazine". On (page 29) it says: "MANUFACTURER: Various".

So, I do agree that Norinco probably need to go. To be more accurate. It'll be changed for the next version of the flowchart, to more correctly reflect the wording in the PC.

aplinker
10-03-2008, 7:53 PM
OK, thanks. It's disturbing they would print it wrong there. It looks like that list was promulgated identically from "thisismyboomstick"s original - so that's likely where he got it.

How it happened isn't important, though.

This is the 1st time I've seen anyone a bit lost, though, as a result of the Flowchart. It seems that's no fault of the chart, given he couldn't determine a bayonet isn't a "feature." :D

PS - just wanted to reiterate my support and kudos on the chart.

I got the Norinco... from the Assault Weapon Guide (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf) (Page 83).

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/9205/norincoih3.jpg

In many other pages, it just mentions "SKS with detachable magazine". On (page 29) it says: "MANUFACTURER: Various".

So, I do agree that Norinco probably need to go. To be more accurate. It'll be changed for the next version of the flowchart, to more correctly reflect the wording in the PC.

REDHORSE
10-03-2008, 8:27 PM
Yep, looks like someone at the DOJ BOF made a typographical error in the Assault Weapon Guide (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf). :eek: :rolleyes:

762cavalier
10-03-2008, 8:31 PM
WHAT:eek: Someone at DOJ BoF made a mistake. Why that's unheard of.:p

jlh95811
10-03-2008, 9:18 PM
make sure that your rifle does not say sks on it anywhere. on your import markings it will say what rifle it is i.e romanian, russian sks or yugo59.

I was thinking about doing this on my Russian Tula 1954. Guess that's a no-no since it says SKS on it.

Okay, so my Norinco does not say sks anywhere on it. It says SPORTER. There are also no import markings on this rifle. It has no bayonet but appears there once was one. Can I do it with this one?

Shane916
10-04-2008, 12:43 PM
I always advise people not to go with detachable magazines on any SKS "pattern" rifles. I do agree that they do not say SKS and therefore aren't specifically prohibited from having detachable magazines. However, I find it highly likely that you will have your weapon confiscated and will end up with extensive court fee's to prove the point that a M59, 59/66 etc. are not SKS rifles. For what its worth, the DOJ website even refers to the 59/66 as an SKS.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.php

Josh3239
10-04-2008, 12:54 PM
I always advise people not to go with detachable magazines on any SKS "pattern" rifles. I do agree that they do not say SKS and therefore aren't specifically prohibited from having detachable magazines. However, I find it highly likely that you will have your weapon confiscated and will end up with extensive court fee's to prove the point that a M59, 59/66 etc. are not SKS rifles. For what its worth, the DOJ website even refers to the 59/66 as an SKS.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.php

Shane, all that refers to is the grenade launching attachment. Also, the DOJ doesn't get to name rifles what they want to name them. If the Zastava isn't an SKS it cannot be called an SKS.

This goes hand in hand with OLLs. The DOJ cannot name a Spike's Tactical ST-15 an AR15. It is either listed or it isn't. The ST15 may be the exact same thing as the AR15 but the make and model number are different and that is what matters.

As far as going to court to prove your innnocence, you have more more of a chance of having to prove your OLL is legal. This knowledge is catching on with LE, gun stores in and out of state, and shooting ranges at a very rapid rate.

jlh95811
10-04-2008, 8:36 PM
Should have made this a poll. Lot's of conflicting info.
I still don't knwo if I can or can not do this to my Norinco "SPORTER"

icormba
10-04-2008, 9:39 PM
For the 03FFL Holders!! Could the following statement be true???

Be careful if you obtained your Zastava while you had or have a 03FFL! You must log it into your bound book and “ADD” a removable magazine later you could be in trouble with the Feds.

From the ATF site:
“Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947 to 1992.”

Also, the Feds refer to the Albanian Rifle as a SKS.
“Albanian SKS semiautomatic rifles, caliber 7.62x39, manufactured in Albania from 1964 to 1978.”

If you logged an Albanian SKS into your bound book as an SKS and then add a removable magazine to it you could be in trouble with the State. You admitted it was and logged it as an SKS.

bigthaiboy
10-05-2008, 4:16 AM
Should have made this a poll. Lot's of conflicting info.
I still don't knwo if I can or can not do this to my Norinco "SPORTER"

If your Chinese "Sportster" does not have the letters SKS stamped anywhere on it, then technically it cannot be called an SKS, but at the end of the day, it is an SKS pattern rifle. Bear in mind, that the CA DoJ inclusion of "SKS with detachable magazine" in the AW ban list was specifically aimed at banning the Chinese commercially-produced SKS-D and SKS-M models, which were designed to take hi-cap AK magazines.

It's your call whether you wish to convert your Norinco to take detachable mags, but bear in mind that if you ever get picked up by the cops on AW charges, you will need to already have the financial resources to fight a test case here in CA, to prove a point in law that your non-SKS marked Norinco is technically not a SKS. You will need deep, deep pockets for that.

OK, let me throw this out to other forum members. What is to stop someone from coming up with a Bullet Button arrangement for the SKS? It would of course, be the same as an AK with evil features with BB installed in the eyes of the law.

A while back, I saw a vendor on Gunbroker selling the entire trigger assembly for a SKS which was converted for AK mags, and using an AK mag release. This would be the ideal conversion, as existing AK BBs could be used.

If your looking to use existing "Duck bill" SKS detachable magazines, you may find most of the ones on the market, disappointing to say the least, as most have reliability issues. There are too many inconsistencies in SKS manufacture (especially with some Chinese or pieced together SKS's where no two serial numbers match) to believe anyone can produce a magazine for this rifle that magically works in every SKS perfectly the first time out.

I have heard good things about the new Tapco polymer 10/20 & 20 rounders though.

bohoki
10-05-2008, 12:54 PM
If your Chinese "Sportster" does not have the letters SKS stamped anywhere on it, then technically it cannot be called an SKS, but at the end of the day, it is an SKS pattern rifle. Bear in mind, that the CA DoJ inclusion of "SKS with detachable magazine" in the AW ban list was specifically aimed at banning the Chinese commercially-produced SKS-D and SKS-M models, which were designed to take hi-cap AK magazines.

It's your call whether you wish to convert your Norinco to take detachable mags, but bear in mind that if you ever get picked up by the cops on AW charges, you will need to already have the financial resources to fight a test case here in CA, to prove a point in law that your non-SKS marked Norinco is technically not a SKS. You will need deep, deep pockets for that.

OK, let me throw this out to other forum members. What is to stop someone from coming up with a Bullet Button arrangement for the SKS? It would of course, be the same as an AK with evil features with BB installed in the eyes of the law.

A while back, I saw a vendor on Gunbroker selling the entire trigger assembly for a SKS which was converted for AK mags, and using an AK mag release. This would be the ideal conversion, as existing AK BBs could be used.

If your looking to use existing "Duck bill" SKS detachable magazines, you may find most of the ones on the market, disappointing to say the least, as most have reliability issues. There are too many inconsistencies in SKS manufacture (especially with some Chinese or pieced together SKS's where no two serial numbers match) to believe anyone can produce a magazine for this rifle that magically works in every SKS perfectly the first time out.

I have heard good things about the new Tapco polymer 10/20 & 20 rounders though.


it is odd how the "sks with detachable magazine" seems like a generic term not a "brand and model designation"

it seems like they were playing fast and loose with that one