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SP1200
09-30-2008, 4:40 PM
Do to complaints in the form of which I asked a few scenario questions I have revised the form of questions...

So I have heard everything about what is considered a firearm. Everything from "a striped lower is just a block of aluminum and not a firearm unless it has the fire control group" to "any AR part is considered of a firearm" And it seems this idea of what is actually the firearm varies form AR to AK. For example an AK with out a few holes and rails could be called an 80% receiver and that is not considered firearm. So with the AR series of rifles at what point of assembly is it actually considered a firearm?

At what point of assembly of parts / possession of parts is considered a firearm in CA?

I have set up a few series of assembly criteria's

Blank Receiver with partial drilled holes?
Blank Receiver with holes drilled?
Milled receiver with holes drilled, no serial numbers?
Complete Stripped receiver with serial numbers?
Assembled received with LPK?

I might be coming in to CA form Reno to visit a relative and he wanted me to bring my AR (OLL with BB and 10-30mag). I'm hesitant to do so and fear that I could get that one cop that wants to confiscate a legal fire arm simply because he/she either doesn't know the laws, or he/she may think I'm not going to get an attorney and file the proper paper work to get my legal rifle back. So to relieve me of this LEO nightmare that I have been through before (Had park ranger in Fort Bragg confiscate a 50 round ruger 10/22 pre ban mag legally purchased before 2000) I was thinking I could completely dissemble my Essential Arms F15J to noting but parts. Or at least bring it down to the point of having the least possible problems if I have to deal with LEO.

I'll toss in a disclaimer. I have no criminal record. Not even any misdemeanors in either state. But I have always be messed with by cops. And I have never transported any firearms across state lines. So I think before I transport a firearm, I'd better know exactly what the legal definition of an AR style firearm is...


Now below is my original post that seem to up set ohsmily so much....
It was quick because I didn't have much time with the original post...

So I was having the conversation here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=123752
And was wondering about the situation with stripped OLL's...

Lets talk about a few situations.

1) You're flying down the freeway with a STRIPPED OLL in your trunk.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

2) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

3) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk. >> Next to a gym bag that contains the upper, field striped bolt and carrier, and 10-30 mag...but NO AMMO.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

This is in reference to a conversation I heard in which someone said that a non actionable firearm is just parts, not a firearm...

Hopi
09-30-2008, 4:43 PM
The receiver is the firearm. Always.

Stripped, complete, bullet-button, no bullet-button, covered in Mayonnaise....the receiver is the gun.

brando
09-30-2008, 4:47 PM
It's got a serial number - that's the first clue.

M. Sage
09-30-2008, 4:47 PM
1) You're flying down the freeway with a STRIPPED OLL in your trunk.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

Yes. A receiver is a firearm, stripped or not. On an AR-type, it's the lower receiver that's the firearm part. The upper is not a firearm.

2) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

Yes. The situation is technically no different than above.

3) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk. >> Next to a gym bag that contains the upper, field striped bolt and carrier, and 10-30 mag...but NO AMMO.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

Umm... yes. By Federal law, a receiver is a firearm.

By the way, you can travel with a fully-assembled firearm, ammo in the same container, and loaded magazines sitting right next to the rifle. As long as a rifle or handgun isn't loaded (round in chamber or loaded magazine in the rifle), it's fine. You could set it on the seat next to you, as long as you don't go through a school zone. If you get pulled over, you'll probably get a good idea how big the muzzle is on a .40 cal pistol, though.

Jpach
09-30-2008, 4:49 PM
The receiver is the firearm always as Hopi stated. Unless you are a felon or are otherwise prohibited, you are allowed to posess a firearm. Whats the problem with posession for you?

ohsmily
09-30-2008, 4:51 PM
striped lowers are firearms?
Striped lowers are firearms. How does striping on a gun bear on whether it is a firearm or not? A lower might be prettier if it has stripes or maybe even more camouflaged if the stripes are the right color. But it is still a firearm regardless.

nobs11
09-30-2008, 4:52 PM
The receiver is the firearm always as Hopi stated. Unless you are a felon or are otherwise prohibited, you are allowed to posess a firearm. Whats the problem with posession for you?

Right. If you are speeding down the freeway, you will get busted for speeding. Having firearms is not an issue if you are legally transporting them.

M. Sage
09-30-2008, 4:52 PM
Striped lowers are firearms. How does striping on a gun bear on whether it is a firearm or not? A lower might be prettier if it has stripes or maybe even more camouflaged if the stripes are the right color. But it is still a firearm regardless.

I have to admit, I almost went there myself...

ohsmily
09-30-2008, 4:54 PM
I have to admit, I almost went there myself...

Since the question was already answered, I didn't see the harm in it and I couldn't help myself.

bohoki
09-30-2008, 4:54 PM
so if you have a stripped lower in your pocket is that carrying a concealed weapon

oh wait a long arm cannot be concealed under california law but

it is less than 26 inches oh no its got a 0 inch barrel

ohsmily
09-30-2008, 4:56 PM
To the OP, what is the relevance of this question? Why are you concerned about having a long gun in your trunk? Are you a prohibited person? Is that why you are afraid of possession?

truthseeker
09-30-2008, 4:57 PM
If I have my upper an lower together in my safe, but without a stock on it is it an AW (under 30 inches)?

c good
09-30-2008, 4:57 PM
I have to admit, I almost went there myself...

:):D:):D:)

SP1200
09-30-2008, 5:04 PM
so if you have a stripped lower in your pocket is that carrying a concealed weapon

oh wait a long arm cannot be concealed under california law but

it is less than 26 inches oh no its got a 0 inch barrel


Jesus relax...don't jump on me. No I'm not a fellion, I can't even spell the word...and there is nothing wrong with me transporting a firearm. Just simply asking the question because I am hearing different opinions everywhere I go in regards to a non actionable fire arm...

And what bohoki just pointed out...

So if a lower is considered a firearm, and your carrying it around in your pocket is that a concealed firearm?

aplinker
09-30-2008, 5:07 PM
so if you have a stripped lower in your pocket is that carrying a concealed weapon

oh wait a long arm cannot be concealed under california law but

it is less than 26 inches oh no its got a 0 inch barrel


A receiver is not a functioning firearm, thus not a weapon.

aplinker
09-30-2008, 5:08 PM
If I have my upper an lower together in my safe, but without a stock on it is it an AW (under 30 inches)?


I wouldn't remove the stock from a complete AR. You've essentially created an AOW and broken state and Fed law.

Separate upper and lower 1st.

**Edit**

I was assuming it would function, but realized the removal of an AR stock doesn't change the OAL (unless it's a buffer tubeless design). If the rifle can not operate, it still doesn't fit the definition of an AW, and is an assemblage of parts. I would suggest this is on the edge of "assemblage of parts" and might go a bit further.

bohoki
09-30-2008, 5:11 PM
Jesis guy relax...don't jump on me. No I'm not a fellion, I can't even spell the word...and there is nothing wrong with me transporting a firearm. Just simply asking the question because I am hearing different opinions everywhere I go in regards to a non actionable fire arm...

And what bohoki just pointed out...

So if a lower is considered a firearm, and your carrying it around in your pocket is that a concealed firearm?

yea it does seem like the powers that be are trying to have their cake and eat it too

if the receiver is the firearm what about the 10 parts rule

determining where the "firearm" was "made"

a usa reciver to me means the firearm is made in america

but throw a bunch of parts from china/romania/russia its not made in the usa even though it was "made" here of imported parts

does made = assembled its such a convoluted mess
with terms having multiple meanings

SP1200
09-30-2008, 5:14 PM
To the OP, what is the relevance of this question? Why are you concerned about having a long gun in your trunk? Are you a prohibited person? Is that why you are afraid of possession?


Man you guys... Why do you guys always assume the worst... I ask the question because I'm curious!
And I have a legal mind. is there a problem with that?

I like chatting to you guys, because usually most of you are nice people who know the law...

I'm particular curious because I want to come visit my uncle in San Francisco next weekend and he wanted to me bring my OLL. I told him I don't know if I feel comfortable with that.
It is an essential arms f15j with BB and C products 10-30 mag. Now the relevance to this question is how much do I need to break down my rifle?

I'm not a CA resident, so I'm curious about fire arm transportation...and my curiosity lead me to a ton of questions...

Is that ok?

If you don't see the relevance in my question, then don't waist your time hitting the reply button...
It takes more effort to be an *** hole, then to chat it up...

but for those who want to talk and participate in conversation then please do so...

You know...most of the time, these conversations lead to other topics....

Hopi
09-30-2008, 5:14 PM
yea it does seem like the powers that be are trying to have their cake and eat it too

if the receiver is the firearm what about the 10 parts rule

determining where the "firearm" was "made"

a usa reciver to me means the firearm is made in america

but throw a bunch of parts from china/romania/russia its not made in the usa even though it was "made" here of imported parts

does made = assembled its such a convoluted mess
with terms having multiple meanings

Wait, are we sure that 922r even applies to the assembly of a firearm by the owner? Is this not a manufacturer/importer issue? If 922r does apply to the infrequent assembly by a non-manufacturer or importer, wouldn't 922r have to apply to an imported 'firearm', implying the receiver is foreign made?

SP1200
09-30-2008, 5:15 PM
If I have my upper an lower together in my safe, but without a stock on it is it an AW (under 30 inches)?

So this is what I mean...someone asks a question, the community chimes in...
or you guys can just flame everyone...

aplinker
09-30-2008, 5:15 PM
You're trying to make it complicated.

Sure, the laws suck, but they're there.

yea it does seem like the powers that be are trying to have their cake and eat it too

if the receiver is the firearm what about the 10 parts rule

determining where the "firearm" was "made"

a usa reciver to me means the firearm is made in america

but throw a bunch of parts from china/romania/russia its not made in the usa even though it was "made" here of imported parts

does made = assembled its such a convoluted mess
with terms having multiple meanings

aplinker
09-30-2008, 5:23 PM
Wait, are we sure that 922r even applies to the assembly of a firearm by the owner? Is this not a manufacturer/importer issue? If 922r does apply to the infrequent assembly by a non-manufacturer or importer, wouldn't 922r have to apply to an imported 'firearm', implying the receiver is foreign made?

Yes, we're sure. You're still manufacturing. 922(r) is very clear about the "Anyone."

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply toŚ
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

Elucidus
09-30-2008, 5:56 PM
If I point an unassembled lower receiver at a convenience store clerk and tell him to give me all of his money, is it armed robbery or just robbery? :)

CHS
09-30-2008, 6:03 PM
Striped? Like racing stripes?

Ohh.. you mean striPPed.

stphnman20
09-30-2008, 6:09 PM
Striped? Like racing stripes?

Ohh.. you mean striPPed.
Give the guy a break. lol

M. Sage
09-30-2008, 6:10 PM
Man you guys... Why do you guys always assume the worst... I ask the question because I'm curious!
And I have a legal mind. is there a problem with that?

I like chatting to you guys, because usually most of you are nice people who know the law...

I'm particular curious because I want to come visit my uncle in San Francisco next weekend and he wanted to me bring my OLL. I told him I don't know if I feel comfortable with that.
It is an essential arms f15j with BB and C products 10-30 mag. Now the relevance to this question is how much do I need to break down my rifle?

I'm not a CA resident, so I'm curious about fire arm transportation...and my curiosity lead me to a ton of questions...

As long as it's a legally configured off-list arm, then feel perfectly comfortable bringing it to SF. I've had mine through and in SF more times than I can count. So I guess the answer is that you don't need to break down your rifle.

If you feel unsafe possessing an off-list rifle in San Francisco, you should feel just as unsafe doing so throughout the rest of the state, IMO. You may want to reevaluate if the off-list is for you.

As for others' questions; in their defense, some of what you were asking was a bit odd, and it was hard to understand the point to the questions, especially when the answers were all identical in every case.

so if you have a stripped lower in your pocket is that carrying a concealed weapon

oh wait a long arm cannot be concealed under california law but

it is less than 26 inches oh no its got a 0 inch barrel

Yes, concealed weapons laws only apply to handguns in this state. But no, the barrel length wouldn't be 0, it would be "not applicable". ;)

If I point an unassembled lower receiver at a convenience store clerk and tell him to give me all of his money, is it armed robbery or just robbery? :)

If you manage to make the clerk believe that you can shoot him/her with it. You can commit armed robbery without a weapon. It's whether or not the victim has reason to believe that you have a weapon that matters. "Give me all your money" without a visible weapon or suggestion of one (hand in coat pocket or something like that) equals robbery. "I have a gun, give me all your money" in the same exact situation equals armed robbery.

Darklyte27
09-30-2008, 6:15 PM
Aircraft should avoid flying so dangerously close to freeways.

NO FLYING DOWN FREEWAYS, who do you think you are TOPGUN?..:xwing:

SP1200
09-30-2008, 7:48 PM
I see the difference... carrying around a OLL striped in your pocket even through it is a firearm, it in its current state no a weapon, thus not a counseled weapon.
But CW laws to apply to knifes in CA as well....

As far as the question being odd... umm ok... it was a legal question, I don't see how it could be odd.
I've been a member here for a while, I know my post count isn't high...that's because I don't sit here all day and flame on people posts!

...it's not like I just popped up and started asking shady questions...

DedEye
09-30-2008, 8:03 PM
Give the guy a break. lol

Yet he's had so many chances to correct himself ;).

Gator Monroe
09-30-2008, 8:14 PM
If you have an AR lower (Complete with LPK) attached to a STAG or other Dedicated marked .22lr upper and have PG and detachable .22 lr 10/30 mags locked in your trunk or in a locked hard case seperate from any ammo, could a Leo hassle you (if he finds or sees it ?)

bwiese
09-30-2008, 8:18 PM
If you have an AR lower (Complete with LPK) attached to a STAG or other Dedicated marked .22lr upper and have PG and detachable .22 lr 10/30 mags locked in your trunk or in a locked hard case seperate from any ammo, could a Leo hassle you (if he finds or sees it ?)

LE hasslement has nothing to do with the law, just IQ/knowledge and attitude of cop (if it's a bulky worked-out cop, watch out for 'roid rage: I believe quite a few of the younger muscle-bound cops these days are illegal steroid users).

Hell, you can be arrested for an illegal ham sandwich if the cop thinks the mold on your bread is a precursor for LSD synthesis. So just go about your business with a legal rifle. Transport it properly, shoot it safely.

The rest of your query's details are not relevant: rimfire rifles have no restrictions requiring fixed 10rd magazines.

There is no need for markings saying "22LR". If the cop can't figure out rimfire vs. centerfire by looking at the gun and/or read 12276.1PC, screw him.

ohsmily
09-30-2008, 8:47 PM
Man you guys... Why do you guys always assume the worst... I ask the question because I'm curious!
And I have a legal mind. is there a problem with that?

I like chatting to you guys, because usually most of you are nice people who know the law...

I'm particular curious because I want to come visit my uncle in San Francisco next weekend and he wanted to me bring my OLL. I told him I don't know if I feel comfortable with that.
It is an essential arms f15j with BB and C products 10-30 mag. Now the relevance to this question is how much do I need to break down my rifle?

I'm not a CA resident, so I'm curious about fire arm transportation...and my curiosity lead me to a ton of questions...

Is that ok?

If you don't see the relevance in my question, then don't waist your time hitting the reply button...
It takes more effort to be an *** hole, then to chat it up...

but for those who want to talk and participate in conversation then please do so...

You know...most of the time, these conversations lead to other topics....

Sorry your feelings were hurt guy. But, you are WAY off base here. Since you asked and then accused me of somehow not being able to figure out the relevance of your questions, I ask "How the hell were we supposed to figure out why you were asking the question based on your original post quoted below?" Quite a "legal mind" you have there. I asked what the relevance was to try to actually answer your question rather than play your game of "hide the ball" with all your ridiculous hypotheticals. You were asking tertiary questions and not asking the question you actually needed an answer to. In the future, just ask the question you want the answer to, it will be easier for everyone, including you. I would happily answer the question if it wasn't clear that you were getting at something else.

I will try not to "waist" my time anymore with you. :rolleyes: Clearly, it is a waste of time because you ask questions for which you don't really care about the answer. What features are on a lower is not relevant to your ultimate question....which is "how can I legally transport an off list lower if I am traveling to CA from out of state" OR "what restrictions are there on traveling with an off list lower in this state." With a legal mind like yours, the question that you actually needed an answer to should have been clear and you should have asked it.

To the IGNORE list you go. Useless posts "waist" my time....HAHA "waist" my time....classic.

So I was having the conversation here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=123752
And was wondering about the situation with striped OLL's...

Lets talk about a few situations.

1) You're flying down the freeway with a STRIPED OLL in your trunk.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

2) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

3) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk. >> Next to a gym bag that contains the upper, field striped bolt and carrier, and 10-30 mag...but NO AMMO.
Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

This is in reference to a conversation I heard in which someone said that a non actionable firearm is just parts, not a firearm...

P.S. what is a non-actionable firearm? One that doesn't give rise to a cause of action?

Good luck with your legal mind and your striped FFL (what color are the stripes again?)

SP1200
10-01-2008, 12:25 AM
lol. ohsmily what is your problem?

To the OP, what is the relevance of this question? Why are you concerned about having a long gun in your trunk? Are you a prohibited person? Is that why you are afraid of possession?

then you say...

Sorry your feelings were hurt guy. But, you are WAY off base here. Since you asked and then accused me of somehow not being able to figure out the relevance of your questions,

lol. I didn't accuse you of not being able to figure out any relevance...you said it your self...lol...

I never asked you to figure out any relevance to any question. I asked series of questions, and set them up for 1,2,3 answers.
Simple. Everyone likes it like that..simple to answer that way, and takes no time at all...But you were all on your high "I don't see the relevance" horse when all you had to do was respond to 1,2,3

I told you why I asked these questions...it's no conspiracy...I wasn't hiding anything...like you tried to imply...

> You were asking tertiary questions and not asking the question you actually needed an answer to.

I asked the questions I wanted to know the answer too...thinking there might be different stages of what LEO considers a firearm, is that to much to ask for?

I hear conflicting answers form just about everyone I know...so I thought I'd come here to clear them up. I've heard everything from...the receiver with out a parts kit is not a firearm, to just one single part of a rifle is the firearm... I posed the questions all at once...in a series...and order of assembly so as to not have to ask more questions as the thread continued...

>I would happily answer the question if it wasn't clear that you were getting at something else.

WTF was I getting at??? I asked what LEO considers a firearm while speeding down the freeway....lol...

Isn't that what I plan to do when driving to SF from Reno? What is your problem?

>Clearly, it is a waste of time because you ask questions for which you don't really care about the answer.

Ok Mr. self-righteous...let me set it up for you...

Lets ask the question's again...then I'll give you some ideas on why they may be different...

1) You're flying down the freeway with a STRIPPED OLL in your trunk. Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

Well it may not be as someone might see that a hunk of Aluminum isn't capable of loading a bullet and firing!
...and that may not be a firearm to the eyes of everyone...

Ever think of that? Or am I still a dumb ***???

2) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk. Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

Now LEO might consider this a firearm...but a normal person might see clearly that a lower (even though it has a fire control group) is still not able to load a bullet and fire...
So can anyone still see why a normal guy like my self may be confused as to what is a firearm...

3) Now your flying down the freeway with a ASSEMBLED OLL with BB in your trunk. >> Next to a gym bag that contains the upper, field striped bolt and carrier, and 10-30 mag...but NO AMMO. Is this considered a firearm, and is doing so a possession of a fire arm?

Now I know that LEO would consider this a firearm...but given that it is not assembled I don't see how its capable of being an actionable firearm...

Any of these questions could have had different answers..but sorry I asked such confusing questions that boggle your sharp mind..
ohh, and I'll make sure to go back and correct any grammar that might bother you...but really, does it really matter?

I used to think that everyone on this board was really nice, and understanding...I'm sorry I felt so comfortable to ask some questions. I'll try re frame form that...
Next time ohsmily I send you my questions through PM then you can decide if they are qualified to post in the public forums...would you like that??

Omega13device
10-01-2008, 12:36 AM
It sounds like the area of law that is relevant to you is not what is a firearm, but what is a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle, because that's what's at issue in the CA AW ban.

An AR lower receiver that's NOT attached to an upper cannot be defined as a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle because the lower can accept any number of uppers including single-shot upper and rimfire uppers, among others. If the lower is not attached to a semi-automatic, centerfire upper it's not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. Would you get arrested if you were stopped and searched? That depends on what the officer knows about the law. But it's never stopped me from putting the guns in the trunk and driving to the range.

nobs11
10-01-2008, 12:40 AM
I still don't understand what your concern is. There is no law against possessing a legal firearm in your vehicle as long as it is being lawfully transported. You said you are carrying it in a locked trunk.

If you are "flying down the freeway," you will have to worry about that when LE stops you. That in itself does not give them the right to search your car if firearms aren't visible.

What is your concern here? I think people are being more than helpful to help you with your strawman question.

SP1200
10-01-2008, 12:57 AM
yea sorry guys...perhaps I should have asked the question in a different manner... perhaps Ill go back and edit it so as to not bother anyone...

SP1200
10-01-2008, 1:10 AM
It sounds like the area of law that is relevant to you is not what is a firearm, but what is a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle, because that's what's at issue in the CA AW ban.

An AR lower receiver that's NOT attached to an upper cannot be defined as a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle because the lower can accept any number of uppers including single-shot upper and rimfire uppers, among others. If the lower is not attached to a semi-automatic, centerfire upper it's not a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle. Would you get arrested if you were stopped and searched? That depends on what the officer knows about the law. But it's never stopped me from putting the guns in the trunk and driving to the range.

Yea, i don't know if I want to bring any firearm in to CA. I just don't want to get that one cops that doesn't understand the law...and epically because I'm not even a CA resident...

sorensen440
10-01-2008, 1:21 AM
Yea, i don't know if I want to bring any firearm in to CA. I just don't want to get that one cops that doesn't understand the law...and epically because I'm not even a CA resident...

I have yet to be hassled for firearms in my vehicle
and if you keep them out of sight you wont be either