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mortman
09-30-2008, 9:16 AM
Howdy,
Heres the situation: returning home from the range. Locked in the trunk:
cowboy rig-two holstered single action armies (I am a SASS competitor) placed in an open box, M1 Garand cased, Sako bolt-action cased, S&W Mdl.
27 cased, Colt 1911 cased, 1873 Win. replica cased. Up front is boxed ammo.

I am driving on Grimes Canyon Rd. An approaching cruiser hits lights and siren. I slow and observe the patrol car making a u-turn in my rear view mirror. I pull over as it approaches from behind. Yeah, I'm it. Cop approaches and informs me that I am going 61 in a 45 zone. Now the back seat is folded down and gun cases and targets are visible. Cop asks for DL and reg. and says "Sir, I see there are guns in this car, I'm going to have to ask you to step out of the vehicle". I get out and the cop guides me back toward the front of the cruiser. He says "Sir, for my protection, I am going to have to restrain you." He then proceed to cuff me (he's real nice about this saying something like "I'll try to make this as comfortable as possible" while he puts the handcuffs on me. He tells me to lean against the side of the cruiser while he pops the trunk to search.

First he pulls up the cowboy gunbelt and damn if I haven't left three live rounds in the belt loops. "Sir, this is a violation." I acknowledge this saying it is an error on my part. He then uncases each gun to check that the weapons are unloade. While doing so he says something like "You know that this (the three cartridges) is the same as a loaded gun?" I''m not so sure about that, but I am not inclined to argue with the police especially not from this position, so I just nod my head. As he pulls back the bolt on the M1, I caution him about the thumb thing and he says he is aware.

Okay, search is complete and he uncuffs me. He says "Look, what do you say I forget about the weapons charge and just charge you with speeding?"
I agree (Let's assume I can beat the so-called loaded gun charge in court: what would it cost me?, how long would it take me to get back my confiscated guns from the court?).

Then he says something really strange and wonderful. It goes something like this: "As a matter of fact, I am going to forget about the speeding charge too just for the sake of tradition." I don't ask him exactly what he means by that, I can't believe it; but of course, I shake his hand and thank him for the favor. He says "Remember these county roads are 45mph unless otherwise posted." I tell him I will do that and am on my way.

I am a lucky man

Cordially,
Mortman

nobs11
09-30-2008, 9:26 AM
You handled it well. The cop did as well.

I'm sure all the armchair rambo types will step in and tell you that you should have never consented to a search and read him your rights, etc. He was wrong about the "loaded gun" situation, but glad he didn't make a big deal out of it.

scubamark13
09-30-2008, 9:26 AM
You sure are lucky!

drclark
09-30-2008, 9:35 AM
Yep, good thing you ran into a nice trooper.

Since the rear seats of your car fold down providing "easy" access to your trunk compartment, all handguns need to be in a locked container during transport. He could have busted you for illegal transport since the holster containing the SAA's was simply in an open box.

drc

JDoe
09-30-2008, 9:36 AM
Wow, that was really nice of the guy to do that. I guess you looked/acted like one of the good guys. Good guys usually get cut a little slack. You were very lucky and I'm not talking about the speeding ticket.

tteng
09-30-2008, 9:38 AM
Good man.

Perhaps someone can chime in on this,

My camry's trunk, being separated from the passenger compartment, is considered a one big locked-case. If I'm driving a hatchback (no separation bet passenger and trunk compartments), then I have to individually lock each case for firearm transport, correct?

EBR Works
09-30-2008, 9:48 AM
Now you understand why I am neurotic about making sure nothing pertaining to firearms is visible in my vehicle on our range trips. I'm sure this won't happen to you in the future. You are indeed a lucky man my friend.

javalos
09-30-2008, 9:49 AM
Try your best next time to stow everything in the trunk of your car, but if trunk space is not available and you have to fold your seats down, cover them with something to try and eliminate probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

Beelzy
09-30-2008, 9:50 AM
Cool beans!

Two thimbs up for the normally scorned LEOs. I knew there were good ones
still in the field. :cool:

EBR Works
09-30-2008, 9:51 AM
Good man.

Perhaps someone can chime in on this,

My camry's trunk, being separated from the passenger compartment, is considered a one big locked-case. If I'm driving a hatchback (no separation bet passenger and trunk compartments), then I have to individually lock each case for firearm transport, correct?

Handguns & registered AWs should be in a locked case. Non-AW long guns don't need to be locked.

drclark
09-30-2008, 9:52 AM
Good man.

Perhaps someone can chime in on this,

My camry's trunk, being separated from the passenger compartment, is considered a one big locked-case. If I'm driving a hatchback (no separation bet passenger and trunk compartments), then I have to individually lock each case for firearm transport, correct?

You need to be careful. The trunk only counts as a locked container if it cannot be accessed by anyone in the passenger compartment. My wife's camry has latches on the top of the rear seats that allow them to be folded down for carrying odd shaped cargo (as do many other cars). Unfortunately, this feature also invalidates the trunk's status as a "locked container" so we have to ensure that all handguns are in locked cases even when they are in the trunk.

drc

Bobula
09-30-2008, 9:57 AM
You handled it well. The cop did as well.

I'm sure all the armchair rambo types will step in and tell you that you should have never consented to a search and read him your rights, etc. He was wrong about the "loaded gun" situation, but glad he didn't make a big deal out of it.

With guns visible, or gun cases/targets I dont think it's no longer an issue of a consent search ;)

Paratus et Vigilans
09-30-2008, 10:02 AM
Good man.

Perhaps someone can chime in on this,

My camry's trunk, being separated from the passenger compartment, is considered a one big locked-case. If I'm driving a hatchback (no separation bet passenger and trunk compartments), then I have to individually lock each case for firearm transport, correct?

Unless the hatchback has a parcel shelf that separates the "trunk" area from the passenger area and a lockable rear seat latch (I used to have a Chrysler hatchback with a removable parcel shelf and a "lockable fron the cargo area" access latch on the rear seat) then you need to consider that rear cargo area the same as the interior of the vehicle, just like you would a van, SUV or station wagon, and lock handguns in a case just as if you had them in the passenger section of a car.

Fate
09-30-2008, 10:04 AM
You need to be careful. The trunk only counts as a locked container if it cannot be accessed by anyone in the passenger compartment. My wife's camry has latches on the top of the rear seats that allow them to be folded down for carrying odd shaped cargo (as do many other cars). Unfortunately, this feature also invalidates the trunk's status as a "locked container" so we have to ensure that all handguns are in locked cases even when they are in the trunk.

drc
If that little door or the seat latch is locked, the trunk is still a "locked container."

If the pistol is unloaded and NOT concealed (like on seat next to you), it is legal to transport.

technique
09-30-2008, 10:17 AM
Nice cop!

sb_pete
09-30-2008, 10:29 AM
Yep, good thing you ran into a nice trooper.

Since the rear seats of your car fold down providing "easy" access to your trunk compartment, all handguns need to be in a locked container during transport. He could have busted you for illegal transport since the holster containing the SAA's was simply in an open box.

hmmm, maybe somebody with the proper knowledge can chime in (Librarian?), but those were Colt Single Action Armys. I DO NOT KNOW, but maybe black powder handguns are exempt from the law requiring them to be locked?

As I understand it, a trigger lock would also work in lieu of a locked case. Again somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a similar transpo situation. Personally, I always cover up all my gun cases and such with a fitted bed sheet and usually place a piece of cardboard over it all. The Cardboard can work as target backing and keeps the sheet from visually taking on the form of the cases.

Obviously he was wrong about the cartridges in the ammo belt. The belt is not a feeding device, much less one placed in a position from whence the cartridges could be fired. (from here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660))

I wouldn't worry about the search though, if the firearms are visible, well that pretty much counts as PC. The asking part is really just being polite on his part.

Another odd bit: unmarked rural roads are 55mph around here (Santa Barbara and SLO Counties) :shrug:

Greg-Dawg
09-30-2008, 10:51 AM
Treat that CHP to a brew.

Great cop!

drclark
09-30-2008, 10:56 AM
If that little door or the seat latch is locked, the trunk is still a "locked container."

If the pistol is unloaded and NOT concealed (like on seat next to you), it is legal to transport.

I believe the trunk would still be considered a "locked container" if the internal access from the passenger compartment was locked requiring some sort of key or combination to access.

As far as an unloaded pistol on the seat next to you, I don't agree.

read sections 12025-12026 and 12031 and interpret for yourselves.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

My interpretation is that a handgun or other "concealable firearm" anywhere inside the passenger comparment is considered concealed unless in a locked container. 12025.1 says

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Is a handgun unloaded on the seat next to you "concealed within any vehicle"? My view is the handgun is "concealed within the vehicle" (i.e. cannot be easily seen at a distance) if it is anywhere within the passenger compartment not in a locked container.


drc

bohoki
09-30-2008, 11:09 AM
Is a handgun unloaded on the seat next to you "concealed within any vehicle"? My view is the handgun is "concealed within the vehicle" (i.e. cannot be easily seen at a distance) if it is anywhere within the passenger compartment not in a locked container.


drc

well i guess open carrying in a holster is concealed because you can stand a certain way and block the view of the pistol hidden just keep the holster side to a wall o bush

also the portion of the gun that is in the holster is concealed too

but still in a vehicle never give "probable cause"
so lock the toys and forget the noise

USN CHIEF
09-30-2008, 11:16 AM
Mortman, like everyone has said it, you handled it well and glad to see that the Officer was kind enough to not even write you a ticket. I would call the CHP headquarters on praise the officer on his professional way of handling the situation so that word gets back to the officer and he continues doing the right thing.

dfletcher
09-30-2008, 11:20 AM
It would seem that you responded well enough, I am curious though - did he ask if there were guns in the car or based on observing related items did he assert there were guns in the car?

I was stopped on Redwood Road (by Castro Valley gun store) on the way to the range & had a box of ammo on the front seat, everything else in the trunk. The CHP that pulled me over (rental car with expired insp tag) approached on the passenger side, looked right at the box of ammo & said nothing. No question, no ticket once I told him the car was a rental.

I think a box of ammo could indicate the presence of a gun, perhaps more so than targets but less than a gun case - where's the line? Should we scrape the "NRA" sticker off our cars?

Again, your CHP seems like a decent fellow as was mine as has been nearly everyone I've encountered but I'm curious about the specific legal aspect.

fairfaxjim
09-30-2008, 11:29 AM
As I understand it, a trigger lock would also work in lieu of a locked case. Again somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

The PC requires it be "locked in the vehicle's trunk" or a "locked container", not a trigger lock,
"(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment."

and defines locked case as:
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

nobs11
09-30-2008, 11:32 AM
It would seem that you responded well enough, I am curious though - did he ask if there were guns in the car or based on observing related items did he assert there were guns in the car?


"Now the back seat is folded down and gun cases and targets are visible."

LE doesn't need to see your NRA sticker to know that you are a gun owner. If you are pulled over, your handgun and AW registrations show up when they run your DL.

SJgunguy24
09-30-2008, 11:44 AM
I've been pulled over a couple of times while transporting guns. I have a truck so rifles in the back and handguns in the range bag up front with a lock.
Only once did anybody have an issue with the handguns up front. Hayward cop told me that was illegal. I told him I follow the law to the letter and would never do anything to endanger my rights. He called his Sargent and he looked it up and confirmed I was right.

I would take issue with being handcuffed though but I understand the reasoning. Your access to the firearms is hinderd just by you waiting by the cruiser.
No harm ,no foul. He is flat wrong about the gun being loaded. I've heard that's a new trend in Da' Hood' SA cowboy shooters Bling bling

mortman
09-30-2008, 11:47 AM
USN Chief,
Yeah I thought about paying him the compliment. But, as an old hand, you know that you can't be sure that the guy at the head desk isn't some "by the book" SOB. Sometimes true: "no good deed goes unpunished". So I decided to leave the officer as an anonymous good guy.

-M.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 11:55 AM
Funny.... they call this guy a "nice trooper".

He cuffed the guy on the side of the road, illegally searched his vehicle, threatened him with arrest for a gun charge when no law was broken. At the very best this guy was incompetent for not knowing the law he is sworn to uphold.

He may have been a nice guy, but he is ignorant and should be disciplined.

bwiese
09-30-2008, 11:55 AM
Looks like Chippie was trying to bust you for a non-law.

From my brief read of it he wasn't concerned about the guns (appears they were locked in trunk and there were no issues about that) as much as he was considering the guns loaded because you had ammo in the belt/holster rig.

If ammo was not in the SAAs and the SAAs were in a belt rig w/ammo, I believe no laws were violated. The open carry folks do this all the time.


He cuffed the guy on the side of the road, illegally searched his vehicle, threatened him with arrest for a gun charge when no law was broken. At the very best this guy was incompetent for not knowing the law he is sworn to uphold.

He may have been a nice guy, but he is ignorant and should be disciplined.

Bingo.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 11:56 AM
The PC requires it be "locked in the vehicle's trunk" or a "locked container", not a trigger lock,
"(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment."

and defines locked case as:
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

That is only if it is concealed. His guns were in plain site so no lock of any type was required.

12gauge12
09-30-2008, 11:57 AM
I had my truck break down on the way back from the desert. We loaded the guns (16 or so) in the back of my friends truck. CHP stopped by to see what the trouble was. Once he noticed the dozen or so cases he stayed close to his car. He asked if we went hunting, we told him we went target shooting. Cool guy, called AAA for me too.

nobs11
09-30-2008, 12:12 PM
illegally searched his vehicle

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the guns are in plain sight LE is allowed to verify that they are unloaded.

scotthmt
09-30-2008, 12:17 PM
theres a time to say 'ok sir' even when you know you're right and a time to say 'no way I know my rights' different choice of actions could end up putting you in the slammer.

fairfaxjim
09-30-2008, 12:18 PM
That is only if it is concealed. His guns were in plain site so no lock of any type was required.

OP stated "locked in trunk", not in plain sight, and question was "As I understand it, a trigger lock would also work in lieu of a locked case. Again somebody please correct me if I am wrong."

I agree, IF in plain sight, no case required (wouldn't be plain sight, would it :))

If concealed, trigger lock is not acceptable in lieu of a locked case - PC is very specific about case being required.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 12:18 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the guns are in plain sight LE is allowed to verify that they are unloaded.

Yes. But they are not allowed to search the whole vehicle.

There is no court case establishing this yet and most LEOS interpret it that it DOES give them the right to search the whole vehicle but if they ever do it to the wrong guy who has enough money to fight it I am confident it will be stopped.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 12:19 PM
OP stated "locked in trunk", not in plain sight, and question was "As I understand it, a trigger lock would also work in lieu of a locked case. Again somebody please correct me if I am wrong."

I agree, IF in plain sight, no case required (wouldn't be plain sight, would it :))

If concealed, trigger lock is not acceptable in lieu of a locked case - PC is very specific about case being required.

But it wasn't locked in the trunk. The rear seat was down, that is how the officer saw the firearm.

SJgunguy24
09-30-2008, 12:23 PM
theres a time to say 'ok sir' even when you know you're right and a time to say 'no way I know my rights' different choice of actions could end up putting you in the slammer.

Attitude is everything, if you treat them with respect generally it will be returned. I've never been rude or combative with LEO's, know too many cops to be a dick. Thats what kept me out of trouble in high school, a cop who felt this group home kid was worth saving. I have had the highest respect ever since.

Army
09-30-2008, 12:42 PM
Unmarked rural speed limit is 55mph.

He could only check for loaded, not a search.

NOT illegal to have ammo in belt loops, or in magazines, as long as the pistols were not concealed.

You should have asked repeatedly if you were being detained or arrested.

You should have asked that he call in a second officer before any search he deemed necessary, seeing as you both were not in a populated area.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 12:53 PM
Attitude is everything, if you treat them with respect generally it will be returned. I've never been rude or combative with LEO's, know too many cops to be a dick. Thats what kept me out of trouble in high school, a cop who felt this group home kid was worth saving. I have had the highest respect ever since.

I had this mentality for years. Getting unjustly arrested for domestic violence, having my guns taken for 45 days when the law says 72 hours, and having to a pay to get them back was the first bad experience I had. I figured it was one bad situation and I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Getting arrested the second time for breaking no law because the CHP officer was ignorant of the law was the second strike. I spent $5000 in lawyer fees and spent 12 hours in jail because the CHP officer did not know the hunter's exemption to concealed carry.

The third time I was pulled over on a fishing trip and threatened with arrest because I had 3 rounds of 9mm ammunition in the center console and a 9mm handgun on the seat.

The fourth time I went into the CHP dispatch center and talked with their sergeant about gun laws and was rudely awakened to the reality that MOST CHP officers are completely clueless about gun laws. They have taught this stuff in their ACADEMY. They are TRAINED that ammo and gun in same vicinity equals loaded. This was the way it was interpreted when the law was originally passed but in 1996 People v. Clark changed all of that but the CHP never updated their LEOS. I have been fighting with them to get them to change it but it appears that it will take a lawsuit to effect change and I don't have the resources. In the meantime the LEOs are violating countless people's rights. I'm not happy about it.

Even still today I am quite respectful for the simple reason that most of them are good people just trying to do their jobs; it is not their fault that their department fails to train them properly.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Unmarked rural speed limit is 55mph.

Nope....

Rural has nothing to do with it... :)


Divided highway = 65
more than 1 lane in either direction = 65
2 lane, undivided = 55

The problem is, the CHP is claiming a 45 mph speed limit which is a prima facia speed limit. The officer is saying that it is not safe to do more than 45 mph in that area.

22350VC states it is illegal to go faster than what is safe for conditions. Because conditions change, it is up to the officer and the driver as to what is "safe for conditions".

Gunaria
09-30-2008, 1:00 PM
Go buy a lotto ticket and let's see if that luck has not ran out yet.

Adonlude
09-30-2008, 1:10 PM
Try your best next time to stow everything in the trunk of your car, but if trunk space is not available and you have to fold your seats down, cover them with something to try and eliminate probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

You do realize that if the cop hadn't seen the guns he probably would have gotten the speeding ticket. This happend to me once. Cop pulled me over for expired registration, discovered I had a pistol in the trunk, 3 cop cars later after all the gun inspection nonsense they forgot to write me the fixit ticket for the registration before letting me go. I'm starting to think I should have guns all over my car (legally) just to distract cops away from following through on the original violation. :D

M. Sage
09-30-2008, 1:37 PM
Yep, good thing you ran into a nice trooper.

Since the rear seats of your car fold down providing "easy" access to your trunk compartment, all handguns need to be in a locked container during transport. He could have busted you for illegal transport since the holster containing the SAA's was simply in an open box.

drc

I know. I'm LMAO about the fact that he thinks that three rounds in the gun belt loops is illegal, but missed the fact that his handguns weren't properly secured.

I wouldn't call this officer a "nice guy", really, since he sort of threatened the OP over the ammo that was stored completely legally. I'd call him ignorant, maybe..

If I'm driving a hatchback (no separation bet passenger and trunk compartments), then I have to individually lock each case for firearm transport, correct?

Only handguns, and you can put multiple handguns in the same locked container. It doesn't have to be a case, a toolbox or duffel bag or whatever works just fine.

Unmarked rural speed limit is 55mph.

He could only check for loaded, not a search.

NOT illegal to have ammo in belt loops, or in magazines, as long as the pistols were not concealed.

You should have asked repeatedly if you were being detained or arrested.

You should have asked that he call in a second officer before any search he deemed necessary, seeing as you both were not in a populated area.

Many LEO, even on here, have stated that the "inspection" allows them to run the serials on the guns to make sure they're not stolen. I obviously think that's over-stepping a lot, since the whole "inspection" section of PC seems to be a pretty blatant 4A violation.

It's legal ot have ammo in belt loops or magazines as long as the guns aren't loaded. Concealed has nothing to do with it.

rtlltj
09-30-2008, 1:59 PM
My 4 door sedan has folding rear seats but I can lock them so they can't be folded down. Can I still use my trunk as a locked container?

edit: ok after reading all the posts it looks like I'm ok

Racefiend
09-30-2008, 2:01 PM
Maybe a bit off topic, but if I have my truck with camper shell that locks, but have the sliding rear windows on my cab, as well as the front of the shell, does that make my camper "unlocked"?

Fate
09-30-2008, 2:01 PM
I would call the CHP headquarters on praise the officer on his professional way of handling the situation so that word gets back to the officer and he continues doing the right thing.
Cuffing him and threatening him with bogus felonies is "professional?" I'd contact CHP, but demand a reprimand.

Californio
09-30-2008, 2:27 PM
I assume you were coming from Piru and coming into old Moorpark, The area from Egg City into old Moorpark has always been a speed trap especially since all the building that has taken place, many wrecks caused by weekend drivers that don't know the road. Sounds like a pain in the arse but I think you did good. I sure don't like the idea of being hooked up, could he have just placed you in the back of his car?

rorschach
09-30-2008, 2:40 PM
Cuffing him and threatening him with bogus felonies is "professional?" I'd contact CHP, but demand a reprimand.

:rolleyes:

Barbarossa
09-30-2008, 3:07 PM
"As a matter of fact, I am going to forget about the speeding charge too just for the sake of tradition."

Background:
I got nailed doing 75 in a 55 a few years back by a CHP. Shotgun in an unlocked case, hunting jacket full of shells on top of it.
This was on a narrow 2 lanes road with irrigation canals on either side (road 65 between I-5 and HWY-45 for you north state-rs).

Officer was driving towards me and had no light bar on his roof, he's about 100 yards coming at me and a solid red light turns on. I think "thats funny look at that single light....". (This was the first time i had seen a CHP with a single lamp.)

Well it wasn't too funny once we passed each other...

He then turned all his lights on and I then understood, "Oh..that was for me...."

I stopped immediately and pulled my truck over as much as I could (irrigation ditches filled with water).

Conversation went like this:
O: Why didn't you stop for me?
Me: My apologies I saw your red light, but didn't know what to make of it.
O: Why did you stop in the middle of the road?
Me: Because there is no shoulder.
O: Do you have and weapons in the vehicle? (while looking through my side window)
Me: Yes sir my shotgun I'm trying to make the evening hunt.
O: Well slow it down, if you weren't a local you'd be getting a ticket.
Me: Thank you!
O: Enjoy your hunt.

It's nice when you run into someone who gives you a break. :D

5968
09-30-2008, 3:52 PM
Your attitude can go along way in deciding how the outcome will turn out when dealing with the police.

Ronco
09-30-2008, 4:26 PM
Howdy,
Heres the situation: returning home from the range. Locked in the trunk:
cowboy rig-two holstered single action armies (I am a SASS competitor) placed in an open box, M1 Garand cased, Sako bolt-action cased, S&W Mdl.
27 cased, Colt 1911 cased, 1873 Win. replica cased. Up front is boxed ammo.


The firearms you listed seem pretty respectable & non threatening (C&R type and no evil features). I wonder if the outcome would have been different if you had any black rifles with you?

Glad to hear no ticket.

GM4spd
09-30-2008, 6:16 PM
Interesting. I was on my way to work at 0300 in my son's S10 pickup.I had
been to Angeles a day before,my empty rifle case(unzipped-but closed) was in the cargo
area behind the seats. I was coming down into the San Fernando valley
just by Valley circle when the lites came on. Two CHP guys come up one
on each side,ask for the usual paperwork,said I had lane strayed,asked if
I had been drinking--no, I am a ship pilot on my way to work, and I am subject to drug/
alcohol testing anytime. The one guy looks at the rifle case and asks,"Sir
can we have your permission to search your vehicle?"
I reply,no. Other guy hands me my paperwork and says"have a nice day"

You do not have to consent to a search. They can possibly arrest you but they
better have something on you or they are in a world of siht. Pete

West coast
09-30-2008, 6:29 PM
Never heard of that, You are so F#@&!* lucky.....

X-NewYawker
09-30-2008, 6:34 PM
The part I can't grasp is why did he cuff you?

On a lonely rural road ANYTHING could have happened.

The Cable Guy
09-30-2008, 6:41 PM
The part I can't grasp is why did he cuff you?

On a lonely rural road ANYTHING could have happened.

If I was in that position, I'd want to have the person cuffed as well. At least he was nice about it.

Looks like you having guns and shooting guns got you off the hook this time. I'm pretty sure by tradition he meant the tradition of owning firearms and such.

javalos
09-30-2008, 6:56 PM
Talked to my son who is a LEO, he said that the trunk is a lock container so if order so you won't be bothered keep the firearms in the locked trunk, any other gun related stuff (targets, cardboard, folding shooting bench, etc) keep in the back if trunk space won't allow it. That way if a LEO questions you if you have firearms in the car because he see's the other gun related stuff in the back, you can tell him that you do and they are in the trunk unloaded and furthermore you have the right to refuse consent to a requested search of the firearms in the trunk. But when you open the back seat, you are basically opening the door to the police and allowing them to search and he can cuff you because he visibly saw firearm containers in plain view and the fact that the operator of the vehicle was breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit.

MT1
09-30-2008, 9:59 PM
I would have no problem with the search if I happened to leave the guns in plain sight - the hand cuffs would be a problem for me, I have never been cuffed, and although I'm not claustrophobic - I think that would cause a similar reaction. Is that SOP? At that point do you ask if you are under arrest? because that's basically what it is...

X-NewYawker
09-30-2008, 10:02 PM
The cuffs feel like a power trip -- the Cop was clearly NOT thinking you were a gang banger to begin with -- being cuffed while i hadn't been charged or even accused of a crime -- well, I don't like the way they feel. That's why I'm not married to my ex-wife anymore.

cannon
09-30-2008, 10:12 PM
The officer followed policy by cuffing the OP. And it would stand in court. LEO's are allowed to cuff and/or pat down non arrested people for officer safty.

Search was legal as the seat backs were down and gun cases (which by law have to be locked.) were visible.

Officer incorrect about bullets in a gun belt but hey maybe the OP has a belt fed Winchester lever action.:)

Overall officer was polite and the OP was polite and the outcome was great. No court and atty. fees and no speeding ticket.

Had the OP been less a gentleman the outcome may well have been different. Being civil to civil people is a good habit.

I'd suggest that the OP not send a letter to the Dept. as I promise you some pencil pushing Lt. weenie will beef the Officer for not confiscating the guns for public safty. If the OP does want to send the officer a letter he can address to the officer and without any gun details in case the letter is opened and just remind him of when and where the stop was and thank him for being polite and professional.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 10:15 PM
That way if a LEO questions you if you have firearms in the car because he see's the other gun related stuff in the back, you can tell him that you do and they are in the trunk unloaded and furthermore you have the right to refuse consent to a requested search of the firearms in the trunk.

I'm sorry sir but your son is incorrect. As soon as you admit to an officer you have a gun in the car, the penal code allows the officer to obtain that firearm for the purposes of inspecting it. Refusal to produce the weapon is probable cause for an arrest of carrying a loaded firearm (even if it isn't loaded).

Upon arrest he will impound your car and do an inventory search anyway. So in a nut shell... penal code and case law allow for officers to search the vehicle for guns once you admit to having one in the car.

E Pluribus Unum
09-30-2008, 10:18 PM
Search was legal as the seat backs were down and gun cases (which by law have to be locked.) were visible.

No, they do not have to be locked. Long guns can be carried concealed. The only thing in question was the pistol. That only had to be locked if carried concealed. Whether a gun is concealed while in a gun case that is in plain site would probably be left up to the courts. To be completely safe all he would have had to do is have the pistol out of its case.

hoffmang
09-30-2008, 11:02 PM
The amount of wrong information on all sides of this thread is troubling.

1. No locks are required on anything put handguns and AWs. There is a strong argument that if a handgun is unloaded and in plain site it is also legal in transport.

2. Rounds on the belt do not define a loaded firearm. If there were no rounds in the cylinders of your revolvers, they were not loaded based on People v. Clark.

3. Sadly, a LEO does have the right to check any firearm they see to see if it is loaded. That is both a violation of the 4th amendment and the soon to be incorporated 2nd amendment. However, until we bring a post incorporation case (and we will) there is CA Appellate case law that gives a LEO permission to search an auto to check for a loaded weapon in your car.

-Gene

sorensen440
09-30-2008, 11:45 PM
Sounds like a good officer who doesn't understand the law about loaded (Many don't)

It was cool that he let you go for the speeding

I don't agree with the law allowing them to check your guns but hey it is the law

BlackReef
10-01-2008, 12:00 AM
Couldn't have said it better.

Funny.... they call this guy a "nice trooper".

He cuffed the guy on the side of the road, illegally searched his vehicle, threatened him with arrest for a gun charge when no law was broken. At the very best this guy was incompetent for not knowing the law he is sworn to uphold.

He may have been a nice guy, but he is ignorant and should be disciplined.

tyrist
10-01-2008, 12:12 AM
Mortman, like everyone has said it, you handled it well and glad to see that the Officer was kind enough to not even write you a ticket. I would call the CHP headquarters on praise the officer on his professional way of handling the situation so that word gets back to the officer and he continues doing the right thing.

Negative....just forget it happened. He cut the OP a big break since your handguns all needed to be in locked cases. The reason he did'nt write you a ticket is so that there would'nt be an court case where his discretion would be revealed.

leitung
10-01-2008, 1:27 AM
I always figured I would go with the whole "I am a Level III Reserve don't hurt me" (Not hired, just have the certificate) routine if I got pulled over with guns.

That might get me off, but I would have been pissed in that situation having him do an illegal search on me. My big mouth probably would have gotten me in jail, however I would have won in court.

tyrist
10-01-2008, 7:30 AM
[/B][/B]I always figured I would go with the whole "I am a Level III Reserve don't hurt me" (Not hired, just have the certificate) routine if I got pulled over with guns.

That might get me off, but I would have been pissed in that situation having him do an illegal search on me. My big mouth probably would have gotten me in jail, however I would have won in court.

Search was not illegal

bombadillo
10-01-2008, 8:15 AM
Glad you didn't run into a rookie with no experience, no love for valued older firearms, and a chip on his shoulder. I had expired tags and my LEO friend came up and said you had better get those replace or you're gonna get nailed by the rookies. Just goes to show with experience, comes a nice calm guy.

bombadillo
10-01-2008, 8:17 AM
Oh, and another reason to get a CCW so you can carry loaded if you so desire.

NiteQwill
10-01-2008, 10:09 AM
I have a similar situation several months back coming back form Burro.

I was speeding down San Gabriel Rd. through a turn (yea yea, I should learn to brake, I know...) and CHP cruiser pulls me over.

2 officers ask where my buddy (who pulled over in front of me about 100 ft) and I were coming from. I said, "Burro." They then asked to search my car, I replied with a "no."

Ended up with no speeding ticket, but a $10 fixit ticket for no front plate.

Like others said, I believe it is about how you handle yourself during the situation.

javalos
10-01-2008, 10:33 AM
I'm sorry sir but your son is incorrect. As soon as you admit to an officer you have a gun in the car, the penal code allows the officer to obtain that firearm for the purposes of inspecting it. Refusal to produce the weapon is probable cause for an arrest of carrying a loaded firearm (even if it isn't loaded).

Upon arrest he will impound your car and do an inventory search anyway. So in a nut shell... penal code and case law allow for officers to search the vehicle for guns once you admit to having one in the car.

Informed my son who is a LEO and he looked it up and sure enough Penal Code Section 12031 allows an officer to inspect firearms in the trunk if the operator of a vehicle informs the officer that he has firearms in the trunk. We further looked into the penal code and it says that rifles and shotguns can be carried either openly or concealed within a motor vehicle as long as they are not loaded. However tactical rifles that this state refers to as "assault weapons" and .50 BMG rifles must be transported in a motor vehicle in the same manner as transporting handguns.

E Pluribus Unum
10-01-2008, 11:05 AM
Informed my son who is a LEO and he looked it up and sure enough Penal Code Section 12031 allows an officer to inspect firearms in the trunk if the operator of a vehicle informs the officer that he has firearms in the trunk. We further looked into the penal code and it says that rifles and shotguns can be carried either openly or concealed within a motor vehicle as long as they are not loaded. However tactical rifles that this state refers to as "assault weapons" and .50 BMG rifles must be transported in a motor vehicle in the same manner as transporting handguns.

And now you know... and knowing is half the battle... ;)

1911su16b870
10-01-2008, 11:11 AM
... "As a matter of fact, I am going to forget about the speeding charge too just for the sake of tradition." I don't ask him exactly what he means by that, I can't believe it; but of course, I shake his hand and thank him for the favor. He says "Remember these county roads are 45mph unless otherwise posted." I tell him I will do that and am on my way.

I am a lucky man

Cordially,
Mortman

Shown "love" by the CHP, yes you sir are a very luck man! :D

Doheny
10-01-2008, 11:31 AM
Here's an interesting article by the Alameda Co. DA re: car searches when weapons are invovled. Note where it says officers may seach "even if the detainee....possessed the weapon lawfully." Also note the last paragraph where it mentions the trunk:

http://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/PROTECTIVECARSEARCHES.pdf



.

what2be
10-01-2008, 12:01 PM
"Now the back seat is folded down and gun cases and targets are visible."

LE doesn't need to see your NRA sticker to know that you are a gun owner. If you are pulled over, your handgun and AW registrations show up when they run your DL.

Wrong.
The only way leo's ever know if you own handguns or aw regs are if they run a firearms check, which happens about 1% of the time, if that. Same thing goes for CCW permits.
A standard radio check runs your DL for outstanding warrants, most of which consist of FTP's and FTA's. Even then, most agencies wont arrest unless you have a history of FTP's or FTA's. Most leo's dont even run the registration on your vehicle.

what2be
10-01-2008, 12:06 PM
The part I can't grasp is why did he cuff you?

On a lonely rural road ANYTHING could have happened.

Common practice for officer safety (not condoning it by any means).
They call it being "detained" (since your not free to leave) but not arrested.
That way they can legally get away with it.

what2be
10-01-2008, 12:08 PM
The amount of wrong information on all sides of this thread is troubling.

1. No locks are required on anything put handguns and AWs. There is a strong argument that if a handgun is unloaded and in plain site it is also legal in transport.

-Gene

Can you clarify this please? Are you saying a OLL with a BB is considered a AW?
Or are you referring to registered AW's?

I travel frequently with my OLL rifles in the back seat of my truck (quad cab truck, in plain site) and assumed that was legal.

what2be
10-01-2008, 12:12 PM
Oh, and another reason to get a CCW so you can carry loaded if you so desire.

Trouble is, your limited by the number of guns on your ccw. In my area, we are allowed 3, which I put my 3 favorite handguns, that way if im not carrying , but maybe going to the range or just to go shoot, I dont worry about the lock on the case. And to be honest, I never even use locks on the cases anyway. In fact, last month I renewed my ccw and when I brought 2 guns into the sherrifs dept to add to my ccw, I didnt have a lock on either case. I live up north where its alot more relaxed with guns, so I wouldnt recommend this for you so cal people, as it seems the leos are almost all anti-gun down there.

nobs11
10-01-2008, 12:27 PM
Wrong.
The only way leo's ever know if you own handguns or aw regs are if they run a firearms check, which happens about 1% of the time, if that. Same thing goes for CCW permits.
A standard radio check runs your DL for outstanding warrants, most of which consist of FTP's and FTA's. Even then, most agencies wont arrest unless you have a history of FTP's or FTA's. Most leo's dont even run the registration on your vehicle.

I have a clean record and have 2 speeding infractions over the past 15 years. I have been stopped 4 times over the past 3-4 years. On two occasions I was told that "It seems you own several handguns. Do you have any in the vehicle?" That makes it 50% of the time. I dress well, my hair is short, my car is clean (and not a crappy make that usually screams "redneck") and there is nothing that is obviously suspicious. Care to tell me where your 1% number comes from when I have personal experience that it has happened to me more times than that?

leitung
10-01-2008, 12:46 PM
[/B][/B]

Search was not illegal

I stand corrected.. I still would have been mad...

ke6guj
10-01-2008, 1:06 PM
Can you clarify this please? Are you saying a OLL with a BB is considered a AW?
Or are you referring to registered AW's?
No, he is not considering an OLL /w BB an AW. Gene is referring to actual registered AWs and 50 BMG rifles.

StraightShooter
10-01-2008, 1:39 PM
Negative....just forget it happened. He cut the OP a big break since your handguns all needed to be in locked cases. The reason he did'nt write you a ticket is so that there would'nt be an court case where his discretion would be revealed.

I would guess thats what he meant by "tradition."

Its tradition to not screw yourself over.