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BDH
09-28-2008, 3:57 PM
I have a B15 bullet button on my lower. While shooting at the range, is it allowable to use a tool, remove the magazine, load the magazine and reinsert and continue to fire? Or, do I have to load from the top?

Thanks,

Bruce

aplinker
09-28-2008, 4:00 PM
From a legal perspective it's completely legal to do as you described.

Some ranges prefer people top-load. I've not been to one of these ranges, but they do exist. In this case, you would top load.

All of the ranges I go to are very accustomed to OLLs. I think you'll find most ranges are this way and you'll feel good to see others around you doing the same.

I also remove the magazine when clearing the gun when the range is cold for target set-up/takedown.

technique
09-28-2008, 4:19 PM
The way you put it, yes. It is legal to do.

As plinker mentioned, depending on the range you may want to top load.



Just as a side note and word of caution....

One of the ranges I frequent has a rangemaster that Boldly stated.."I don't want any mags in firearms at the cease fire". During the cease fire, those with P50's were instructed to "back the set screw out and drop the mag" (illegal!!!!!) I could not believe what I was hearing!!!!! Or seeing for that matter. Either way if this happens to you, I suggest you refuse to comply and ask to leave under the circumstances you are being asked to break the law.

I had never encountered this before, I assume it is rare. But just a warning if you decide while using the B15 you want to try the P50 as you have the best of both world rolled into one.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 4:45 PM
Ridiculous that they would require that.

Shotguns, lever actions, tube-fed rifles, SKS, M1 Garand... all have internal mags. How do you drop them? Generally, the use of a chamber flag is requested.

If they insist on dropping the mag, you can separate the upper/lower with a P50 and then remove the mag. However, I would go to management (using the argument above).


The way you put it, yes. It is legal to do.

As plinker mentioned, depending on the range you may want to top load.



Just as a side note and word of caution....

One of the ranges I frequent has a rangemaster that Boldly stated.."I don't want any mags in firearms at the cease fire". During the cease fire, those with P50's were instructed to "back the set screw out and drop the mag" (illegal!!!!!) I could not believe what I was hearing!!!!! Or seeing for that matter. Either way if this happens to you, I suggest you refuse to comply and ask to leave under the circumstances you are being asked to break the law.

I had never encountered this before, I assume it is rare. But just a warning if you decide while using the B15 you want to try the P50 as you have the best of both world rolled into one.

BroncoBob
09-28-2008, 5:20 PM
I use my BB all the time. Of course I shoot at a friendly AR type rilfe range. Never any issues. I guess it depends on your range rules. I always suggest to follow their rules no matter how they rub you raw.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 5:52 PM
I use my BB all the time. Of course I shoot at a friendly AR type rilfe range. Never any issues. I guess it depends on your range rules. I always suggest to follow their rules no matter how they rub you raw.

I wouldn't follow a rule that required me to break the law.

Blacky
09-28-2008, 5:54 PM
For my own clarification, if a BB is used, it absolutely can NOT be used with a magazine larger that 10 rounds. The only way to use hi-cap magazines is through the top ( ? ).

hawk1
09-28-2008, 5:59 PM
For my own clarification, if a BB is used, it absolutely can NOT be used with a magazine larger that 10 rounds. The only way to use hi-cap magazines is through the top ( ? ).

NO! Do not fix with a maglock or BB a magazine with more than 10 rounds

You can use magazines of more than 10 rounds if your rifle is featureless and they are pre-ban mags. Do not pin a magazine of more than 10 rounds on a featureless rifle either. Featureless rifles do not have to be pinned and can be dropped by a regular mag release.

technique
09-28-2008, 6:00 PM
For my own clarification, if a BB is used, it absolutely can NOT be used with a magazine larger that 10 rounds. The only way to use hi-cap magazines is through the top ( ? ).

No High caps can be used in featureless builds or builds that are single shot!

Not at all with a mag lock.



see above!

BroncoBob
09-28-2008, 6:01 PM
I wouldn't follow a rule that required me to break the law.

Of course not. No range is going to do that.

stphnman20
09-28-2008, 6:05 PM
For BB you can use a tool to remove the mag and reload it.. It's totally legal.. But you WILL get looks at the range from "those" people!

aplinker
09-28-2008, 6:17 PM
For my own clarification, if a BB is used, it absolutely can NOT be used with a magazine larger that 10 rounds. The only way to use hi-cap magazines is through the top ( ? ).

NO

A Bullet Button or Prince50 style lock creates a fixed magazine rifle. This means you are limited to 10rds in the magazine.

The only way to use large capacity mags is in a detachable magazine rifle - to do this you are required to have none of the features listed in the PC (pistol grip, flash suppressor, etc.)

aplinker
09-28-2008, 6:18 PM
No High caps can be used in featureless builds or builds that are single shot!

Not at all with a mag lock.



see above!


I think you mean "bolt action repeater." Single shot should have no provision to reload.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 6:19 PM
Of course not. No range is going to do that.

Please re-read Technique's post above (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1567950#post1567950). I've heard reports of this elsewhere.

Don't back out the set-screw on a P50.

technique
09-28-2008, 6:19 PM
I think you mean "bolt action repeater." Single shot should have no provision to reload.

you are correct.:p

Dragon
09-28-2008, 6:48 PM
So with the BB you can not use your pre ban high cap mags unless there are no "evil" features ,M4 stock ,flash hider ,pistol grip ect.

BB with MMG and no evil features is ok to use preban high cap mags? right.

technique
09-28-2008, 7:24 PM
No, If you use a BB or P50 Or B15, even if there is a monsterman or U15 with it your still breakin the law!!!!

No high caps with mag locks,,,period!

aplinker
09-28-2008, 8:08 PM
A fixed magazine, centerfire, semi-automatic rifle with a capacity greater than 10rds is defined, alone, as an assault weapon.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276,
"assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a
fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds.

ohsmily
09-28-2008, 8:32 PM
This thread is so full of f'ed up information from people who haven't bothered reading the law....don't answer a question unless you are absolutely SURE of the answer. When you give the wrong answer, you may be leading some fool to break the law (yourself included).

UCLA Plinker, I don't know how you have the patience to deal with all the voodoo questions and answers people come up with. Geezus.

Fixed mag (P50, bullet button, etc) = evil features OK and NO MORE THAN 10 ROUND MAGS.

Featureless build (U-15 stock, MM grip, etc) = fully detachable magazines (as originally designed) of any capacity, but NO EVIL FEATURES

hawk1
09-28-2008, 8:43 PM
This thread is so full of f'ed up information from people who haven't bothered reading the law....don't answer a question unless you are absolutely SURE of the answer. When you give the wrong answer, you may be leading some fool to break the law (yourself included).

...snipped

Who gave out "f'ed up information"? I see a few questions asking...:confused:

ohsmily
09-28-2008, 9:18 PM
Here are a couple of examples.

The only way to use hi-cap magazines is through the top

So with the BB you can not use your pre ban high cap mags unless there are no "evil" features ,M4 stock ,flash hider ,pistol grip ect.

hawk1
09-28-2008, 9:37 PM
Examples of questions.

Both were asking not offering.

Better to ask, than not and get busted...

Blacky
09-28-2008, 9:52 PM
You having a bad weekend brother?

javalos
09-28-2008, 10:44 PM
I have a B15 bullet button on my lower. While shooting at the range, is it allowable to use a tool, remove the magazine, load the magazine and reinsert and continue to fire? Or, do I have to load from the top?

Thanks,

Bruce

You can use the bullet button at the range, but find out for sure if you are at a OLL friendly range. If it doesn't appear to be prudent, top load the rifle.

There seems to be some confusion among some postings regarding what is legal and what isn't. Its pretty easy...

Constructing the rifle in a way (ex. Bullet Button, Prince 50, etc) to prevent it from having the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. You can have the "evil" features, however your magazine must not exceed 10 rounds, please refer to section 12276.1 if your are not sure.

If you want your rifle to have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine, you cannot have the "evil" features, please read the 2008 Dangerous Weapons Control Law and refer to section 12276.1, its pretty straight forward.

Blacky
09-29-2008, 8:45 AM
UCLA Plinker, I don't know how you have the patience to deal with all the voodoo questions and answers people come up with. Geezus.
Anyone that has spent any time in these forums probably knows uclaplinker is a very credible source of information. Personally I am grateful for that kind of contribution and I doubt that I am alone.

nav195
09-29-2008, 1:45 PM
The way you put it, yes. It is legal to do.

As plinker mentioned, depending on the range you may want to top load.



Just as a side note and word of caution....

One of the ranges I frequent has a rangemaster that Boldly stated.."I don't want any mags in firearms at the cease fire". During the cease fire, those with P50's were instructed to "back the set screw out and drop the mag" (illegal!!!!!) I could not believe what I was hearing!!!!! Or seeing for that matter. Either way if this happens to you, I suggest you refuse to comply and ask to leave under the circumstances you are being asked to break the law.

I had never encountered this before, I assume it is rare. But just a warning if you decide while using the B15 you want to try the P50 as you have the best of both world rolled into one.


Think about it. if your were to lossen the screw everytime you droped the mag and tightened it back. wouldnt this be cosidered using a tool to remove the mag?

IllTemperedCur
09-29-2008, 1:59 PM
Think about it. if your were to lossen the screw everytime you droped the mag and tightened it back. wouldnt this be cosidered using a tool to remove the mag?

No, that's using a tool to convert a fixed mag rifle into a legally defined AW (assuming that all the evil features are still attached). You're describing a process which actually involves TWO actions; releasing the screw (creating the detachable mag rifle/AW), THEN releasing the mag with finger pressure on the mag button. The tool is not DIRECTLY used to release the mag.

Josh3239
09-29-2008, 2:08 PM
I still don't get how people don't understand this when it is so clear.

1) The screw in a Prince 50 ONLY unlocks or locks the magazine. If you use finger manipulation to drop the magazine that means it is detachable. If you turn the screw does the mag fall out? NOOOOO. If you push the release with your finger and the mag comes out does that make it a detachable magazine? YEEESSS.

2) Can you drop the magazine with a bullet button? That is the whole point of the design!!! Why else would a magazine locking device be made that only allows you to drop the mag with a tool? Think about it, if you can't drop it in this state then there would be no reason to buy a bullet button. But the fact that the law allows you to drop the magazine with a tool/bullet coupled with the fact that the magazine locking device is called a "bullet button", it should be pretty self-explanatory.

ENTHUSIAST
09-29-2008, 2:24 PM
I will take this one guys...

Think about it. if your were to lossen the screw everytime you droped the mag

Now you can go to jail becuase you have just used your tool to create an AW.

Think about it now your rifle has evil features AND no longer REQUIRES a tool to remove to mag... a LEO sees it in that configuration you wanna be in court with your P50 unscrewed you will be screwed!


...wouldnt this be cosidered using a tool to remove the mag?


NO NEVER EVER FRICKIN' EVER is it LEGAL to UNSCREW a P50 unless you remove ALL the "EVIL" features or are in a "FREE STATE"!!!


...tightened it back.


NOW it is OK... again but do you understand WHY you cannot unscrew the P50 to drop a mag because of its design and WHY you can drop a mag when using a BB?

A BB is NEVER capable of accepting a "DETACHABLE" mag unlike a P50 which IS capable when the set screw is backed off a situation that can NEVER occur with a BB because it INSTANTLY become ATTACHED and a TOOL IS ALWAYS NEEDED.

ohsmily
09-29-2008, 2:28 PM
NO NEVER EVER FRICKIN' EVER is it LEGAL to UNSCREW a P50 unless you remove ALL the "EVIL" features or are in a "FREE STATE"!!!


.....or remove the upper from the lower. With the upper removed, the lower is no longer a semi-auto centerfire rifle.

BDH
09-29-2008, 2:55 PM
Boy did this open up a bit of discussion. I only have 10-round magazines (10-20s). The range appears to be OLL friendly, but I'll take a empty chamber flag along for an extra measure.

The range staff is young and not too anal about features, just safety.

Thanks to all that replied, it's obvious it's not as clear to some as it is to others.

Bruce

ENTHUSIAST
09-29-2008, 3:33 PM
.....or remove the upper from the lower. With the upper removed, the lower is no longer a semi-auto centerfire rifle.

Forgot about that one...or put a .22LR (Rimfire) Upper and you can run it with the P50 unscrewed...

But I still use a BB on my .22LR upper because I am worried about my lower that is marked 5.56, I know some here will probably say that it is perfectly LEGAL and there is nothing to worry about but I do it for CYA...

I wondered if with the upper removed thus making it compliant because it is no longer a semi-auto centerfire rifle why do all the COMPLETE lowers for sale in state come with a mag lock of some type: BB, P50, B-15 is everybody just playing it overly safe?

Or is it just because MOST people will run a 5.56 upper by default so it just makes sense?

Has anyone seen a completed lower for sale in CA with NO mag lock device (other than a PPT)?

Josh3239
09-29-2008, 4:36 PM
Boy did this open up a bit of discussion. I only have 10-round magazines (10-20s). The range appears to be OLL friendly, but I'll take a empty chamber flag along for an extra measure.

The range staff is young and not too anal about features, just safety.

Thanks to all that replied, it's obvious it's not as clear to some as it is to others.

Bruce

Makes sense, they know they aren't law enforcement. All they care about is a safety. The empty chamber flag should be perfect.

I wondered if with the upper removed thus making it compliant because it is no longer a semi-auto centerfire rifle why do all the COMPLETE lowers for sale in state come with a mag lock of some type: BB, P50, B-15 is everybody just playing it overly safe?

Or is it just because MOST people will run a 5.56 upper by default so it just makes sense?

Has anyone seen a completed lower for sale in CA with NO mag lock device (other than a PPT)?

That would be the main reason, most people build centerfire rifles out of lowers so why not just throw in the mag lock. It is one less thing to buy later.

aplinker
09-29-2008, 4:51 PM
Caliber markings are meaningless, but if you feel better about it.

Complete lowers are sold with magazine locks by some shops for liability issues. Shops don't want people to say a store sold them an AW.

It's a sad truth that a good number of people who own OLL ARs really don't understand the law.

Forgot about that one...or put a .22LR (Rimfire) Upper and you can run it with the P50 unscrewed...

But I still use a BB on my .22LR upper because I am worried about my lower that is marked 5.56, I know some here will probably say that it is perfectly LEGAL and there is nothing to worry about but I do it for CYA...

I wondered if with the upper removed thus making it compliant because it is no longer a semi-auto centerfire rifle why do all the COMPLETE lowers for sale in state come with a mag lock of some type: BB, P50, B-15 is everybody just playing it overly safe?

Or is it just because MOST people will run a 5.56 upper by default so it just makes sense?

Has anyone seen a completed lower for sale in CA with NO mag lock device (other than a PPT)?



I've been around long enough to know that ohsmily is one of the most valuable sources of information. Stick around long enough and you'll find yourself showing some of his sarcastic tendencies, as well. He's also a very nice guy.

Anyone that has spent any time in these forums probably knows uclaplinker is a very credible source of information. Personally I am grateful for that kind of contribution and I doubt that I am alone.

Blacky
09-29-2008, 6:22 PM
What would be your first question here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/LewDog13/P7260260.jpg

yellowfin
09-29-2008, 6:32 PM
What would be your first question here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/LewDog13/P7260260.jpgA. Can I borrow that?
B. Do you take Visa?
C. Do you have two? My wife wants one.

shark92651
09-29-2008, 7:03 PM
What would be your first question here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/LewDog13/P7260260.jpg

A: Hey, where can I get one of those nifty RifleGear bullet button tools? :D

fairfaxjim
09-29-2008, 8:04 PM
What would be your first question here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/LewDog13/P7260260.jpg

Are you sure it's legal to have that much fun???:D

Blacky
09-29-2008, 8:41 PM
The answer is "Yes... of course it's a 10/30."

shooterdave
09-29-2008, 9:40 PM
i use a bullet button at angeles and i've never had a problem.