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neomentat
09-27-2008, 8:42 PM
Can LEO own rifles with pistol grip & drop free mags? How about collapsible stock shotguns? My RTO has a collapsible stock shotgun which aroused my curiosity about this subject. What about the legality of a drop mag shotgun, like the Saiga 12?

Can some fellow LEOs familiar with this matter enlighten me on the subject?

762cavalier
09-27-2008, 8:49 PM
Not a LEO, but LE can own assault weapons as long as they get written approval from the dept. they work for.

neomentat
09-27-2008, 9:01 PM
Not a LEO, but LE can own assault weapons as long as they get written approval from the dept. they work for.

ahhh shat, that ain't never going to happen with my department, any exceptions?

veeklog
09-27-2008, 9:09 PM
ahhh shat, that ain't never going to happen with my department, any exceptions?

My agency issued mine (along with a short barreled shotgun) , but I have a registered AR from 1999. A lot of my LEO friends all have OLL's because they have the same problem you have: you chief and administration is too afraid to let you buy one because of the liability. It's dumb and stupid, but think of some of the people you work with and you can see their point of view; not correct, and with training, anything can be accomplished.

I have seven OLL's, and have enjoyed building them. I think I enjoyed building them more than shooting them:D Wild, huh?

tyrist
09-27-2008, 9:11 PM
Getting department approval is difficult for me and I have to go through training first (which of course has an insanly long wait)...however I have considered applying for the AW permit instead.

fireluvrandrew@gmail.com
09-27-2008, 9:38 PM
and yet some agencies have rifles that have the "fun switch", FA in their police vehicles, if they qualify on them
........

NuGunner
09-27-2008, 10:44 PM
I'm not LEO, but I'll say this I know of an agency who equips every vehicle with 10" colt AW's but they don't keep them up. How are you going to allow your officers to carry equipment that isn't even working. They have surefire M500A's on them and the batteries are dead. On top of that there's gunk that builds up in the chamber because of storage during vehicle maintenance. Serious liability issue I think...and not just in a low light shooting incident. In this case it would be nice to have your own AW, knowing that it's kept up to par, and ready to go

tyrist
09-27-2008, 11:13 PM
I'm not LEO, but I'll say this I know of an agency who equips every vehicle with 10" colt AW's but they don't keep them up. How are you going to allow your officers to carry equipment that isn't even working. They have surefire M500A's on them and the batteries are dead. On top of that there's gunk that builds up in the chamber because of storage during vehicle maintenance. Serious liability issue I think...and not just in a low light shooting incident. In this case it would be nice to have your own AW, knowing that it's kept up to par, and ready to go

+1.....it is also cheaper for the agency since they don't have to purchase them. It's why I bought my own shotgun.

Most agency are more worried about something bad happening however and because they authorized the purchase they are held liable.

NuGunner
09-27-2008, 11:33 PM
+1.....it is also cheaper for the agency since they don't have to purchase them. It's why I bought my own shotgun.

Most agency are more worried about something bad happening however and because they authorized the purchase they are held liable.

it doesn't make sense though for agencies who already train their personnel to use an AW to deny their officers to make a purchase for themselves.

........but I guess that's city politics for you....legality vs. praticality?

ironcross
09-28-2008, 12:40 AM
A Deputy I know has a Bushie (dont think it has the Fun switch on it), he was telling me a story of how it doesnt matter how nice or how crappy of a car you drive you will always get s**t. Long story short he was taking his kid to get some food and some gang bangers followed him in the parking lot and and got out a starting stuff so he went to his trunk got his bushie and took controll, Its the same Rifle he uses for patrol. He works for San Diego Sheriffs Dept.

I thought OCSD had partoll rifles...

SJgunguy24
09-28-2008, 12:58 AM
To the OP have you ever thought about doing what everyone else has to do? Get the S-12 slap a RADD lock on it, and train like hell. The RADD lock is an extra step, but time wise, it really isn't that bad. There is a company working on a low profile 10 rd drum mag.

The Cable Guy
09-28-2008, 1:11 AM
Im not a LEO yet, and I have a collapsible stock on my shotgun. You can have one too, as long as its a pump-action model.

neomentat
09-28-2008, 8:33 AM
To the OP have you ever thought about doing what everyone else has to do? Get the S-12 slap a RADD lock on it, and train like hell. The RADD lock is an extra step, but time wise, it really isn't that bad. There is a company working on a low profile 10 rd drum mag.

i'm thinking about that right now, but it seems like it would be faster to load a tube than to work the lock on a saiga 12. as my logic goes, if the fast mag change reload can't be utitlized, it defeats the purpos of having a saiga 12.

hawk81
09-28-2008, 9:32 AM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP), be allowed to have weapons above and beyond what the state allows any other citizen who are not cops have? Police officers tend to think that they are somehow special, and are above their fellow citizens.

CSACANNONEER
09-28-2008, 9:37 AM
I had an on duty LEO come into the shop and mention the dept. issued M16 in his cruiser. He went out and brought it in and sure enough, it was an M16 with a SA FCG. I guess, they got some surplus rifles and "converted" them to SA for officer safety?

Max-the-Silent
09-28-2008, 9:41 AM
In my dept., a new AW personal purchase would require departmental approval.

Your LE creds do not get you any exemption from AW or MG statutes in Ca. - the deptartment can issue you an AW or MG or SBR or SBS for duty use, but you can't purchase same for personal use without an Agency love letter or a SOT & Ca. MG dealers license, in the case of NFA goodies.

haodoken
09-28-2008, 9:44 AM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP), be allowed to have weapons above and beyond what the state allows any other citizen who are not cops have? Police officers tend to think that they are somehow special, and are above their fellow citizens.

Here we go again...cop bashing...That's what petitions, lawsuits and lobbyists are for. Go CHANGE the law not complain about it. Get an petition started and gather 10,000 signatures. That will let the legislature know your serious about changing the law you do not like.

neomentat
09-28-2008, 12:53 PM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP), be allowed to have weapons above and beyond what the state allows any other citizen who are not cops have? Police officers tend to think that they are somehow special, and are above their fellow citizens.

ummm that's a pretty hostile statement.

First of all LEOs are in the front line of combating criminals 24/7, does anyone in here doubt that felons and gangsters have far superior fire power to LE? Does anyone think these same criminals will follow CA gun laws?

Wolfpack331
09-28-2008, 1:17 PM
LEO's are willing to put their lives on the line for the laws "we" as a society write. Dont like the law? Change it. I know a lot of Leos that dont like certain regs but still put on the vest everyday. when's the last time you risked your life for the unappreciative? Why should the military have AT4's when you cant? Because thats what it takes to keep YOU safe. Want an AT4? Join the military. want a mg? Change the law or move.

haodoken
09-28-2008, 1:28 PM
ummm that's a pretty hostile statement.

First of all LEOs are in the front line of combating criminals 24/7, does anyone in here doubt that felons and gangsters have far superior fire power to LE? Does anyone think these same criminals will follow CA gun laws?

:iagree:

Hawk seems to be anti-LE anyways, just look at some of his threads about laws and police in general. Oh well, what can you do? :rolleyes:

back to the topic...

chsk9
09-28-2008, 1:43 PM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP), be allowed to have weapons above and beyond what the state allows any other citizen who are not cops have? Police officers tend to think that they are somehow special, and are above their fellow citizens.

Because the 'paid citizen on patrol' is the one who is going to put his life on the line to us as safe as our elected officials allow them to.

“Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” -- George Orwell

I'll leave it at that since I'm sure others will make you wish you had your brain in gear on that one. No offense my friend!

eltee
09-28-2008, 2:00 PM
I should note for those who think LEO's get all sorts of breaks from the law that upon retirement, aside from CCW all the exemptions disappear. High cap mags, threaded barrel pistols, post-ban unregistered (but department approved) assault rifles, etc. must all be relinquished or removed from California. Another reason why so many retirees move to Ariz., Idaho or Nev.

1859sharps
09-28-2008, 2:32 PM
I'm with those who agree it's ok for LEOs to get some exemptions from the gun laws because of the function they perform. They need the tools to do the job.

But the idea that "extensive background investigation inc. a polygraph and psychological exam, and tons of training and constant in-service training" some how make a LEO more safe/qualified etc then a civilian to own, use, and carry firearms is complete bunk and I wish people would stop using that argument.

Sailormilan2
09-28-2008, 2:35 PM
I should note for those who think LEO's get all sorts of breaks from the law that upon retirement, aside from CCW all the exemptions disappear. High cap mags, threaded barrel pistols, post-ban unregistered (but department approved) assault rifles, etc. must all be relinquished or removed from California. Another reason why so many retirees move to Ariz., Idaho or Nev.

That is incorrect. The mags do not have to be relinquished, since possession of mags is not illegal. The law allows Law Enforcement to purchase Hi Cap Mags. This is even stated on DOJ's website.
Any AW purchased by an LEO with his own funds would be his, since it is registered to him as an AW when he buys it. Again, registered AWs are legal to own, so he would not have to give it up.
I tried to get an AR before I retired, but my deparment would not authorize it. They didn't want to train me and then have me retire.
Since they wouldn't letme an nice AR toy to play with, I got several M14 types. I am happy.

frigginchi
09-28-2008, 2:36 PM
How dare they equip soldiers/marines with tanks, machine guns, mortars, and m4's. They are only citizens. ;)

SJgunguy24
09-28-2008, 2:58 PM
i'm thinking about that right now, but it seems like it would be faster to load a tube than to work the lock on a saiga 12. as my logic goes, if the fast mag change reload can't be utitlized, it defeats the purpos of having a saiga 12.


I agree with part of this statement, a tube can be reloaded fairly quickly. I try to look at he entire platform. What is more reliable then the AK platform?
20rd drums are avalible for ths S-12. Have you ever used a RADD lock? Very easy to use,and it works with the same action as the standard mag catch. The key can pose an issue,but with training can be overcome. The S-12 can be had in F.A. flavor (I read that Tony Rumore builds them for the F.B.I.) and the fact that auto loading shotguns can be...........tempermental with ammo selection and maintanence. I'm not saying that the S-12 never has to be cleaned, but there will be more rounds down range before jamming issues come up than if one were to compare other auto loading shotguns.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 3:33 PM
This whole question can be answered with two statements:

-If the LEO can get an AW permit, anything they want
-If no AW permit, then follow the flow-chart for semi-auto rifles

For shotguns, it's even simpler - AWs fit any of these definitions:
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

This means the only restrictions, less the revolving cylinder, are on semi-autos. Go pump and do anything you want (short Revolving)

If you want a detachable mag, build a JumboPanda style lock (or get him to do it) for the Saiga-12 - they're extremely fast and easy to use.

I agree with part of this statement, a tube can be reloaded fairly quickly. I try to look at he entire platform. What is more reliable then the AK platform?
20rd drums are avalible for ths S-12. Have you ever used a RADD lock? Very easy to use,and it works with the same action as the standard mag catch. The key can pose an issue,but with training can be overcome. The S-12 can be had in F.A. flavor (I read that Tony Rumore builds them for the F.B.I.) and the fact that auto loading shotguns can be...........tempermental with ammo selection and maintanence. I'm not saying that the S-12 never has to be cleaned, but there will be more rounds down range before jamming issues come up than if one were to compare other auto loading shotguns.

A Remington 870/Mossberg 590

hawk81
09-28-2008, 4:18 PM
You can't change Californias laws, since the majority of people that live hear are idiots, socialists-communists and illegal aliens.

veeklog
09-28-2008, 4:52 PM
You can't change Californias laws, since the majority of people that live hear are idiots, socialists-communists and illegal aliens.

LMAO!!! I born here, grew up here, and agree with you 100%!! I enjoy living here and enjoying all the perks (beach, mountain, desert, women, etc) but most everyone here are bunch of bleeding heart liberals (by the way, I'm a very moderate person, except when it comes to gun laws, where I am a die-hard conservative) who listen and follow as sheep.

Believe it or not, the gun laws here in Cali kill us LEO's. Hi-Caps cost twice as much and harder to get than another state, and we have administrators that are afraid of their own shadows. I know LEO's that can't have AR's b do because the Chiefs won't approve a AW letter to carry another tool in the tool box.

I do believe that not just LEO's should be able to own AR's and Hi-Caps. Every ordinary taxpayer, with the proper training, should be able to own one. We have a lot of military bases here in Cali, so most soldiers are trained up to shoot them. Why is Cali excempt from Federal Law, when the AW ban expired in 2004? Like you said, a bunch of idiots!!!

I

Noah
09-28-2008, 6:33 PM
Totally off topic...

I was just browsing around this thread and reading and I have to say veeklog, Your avatar is the best!

Bimmer2
09-28-2008, 6:40 PM
FWIW, a local LEO, Police Chief Gunderson of Blue Lake, was just convicted of a felony for owning a full-auto MP5 and a silencer for a pistol.

Of course, the local DA doesn't bother prosecuting criminals. It's apparently much better to prosecute LEOs.

Ben

NuGunner
09-28-2008, 7:03 PM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP), be allowed to have weapons above and beyond what the state allows any other citizen who are not cops have? Police officers tend to think that they are somehow special, and are above their fellow citizens.

because we don't face the same threats they face day in and day out...

Bimmer2
09-28-2008, 7:16 PM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP), be allowed to have weapons above and beyond what the state allows any other citizen who are not cops have? Police officers tend to think that they are somehow special, and are above their fellow citizens.

I'm not a cop, but I'm not anti-cop. I love cops. I've had a lot of good experiences with cops. I like it when cops are around.

That said, I think Hawk is right (if I understand the argument correctly).

Let's let cops have the very best duty weapons available. It would be absurd to apply gun control laws to cops' duty weapons.

However, it's just as silly to think that in their capacity as private citizens they should be exempt from gun control.

The soldier analogy doesn't work, because they're issued weapons, but they don't typically get to take them home when they're on leave.

That's my 2˘,

Ben

veeklog
09-28-2008, 7:18 PM
Totally off topic...

I was just browsing around this thread and reading and I have to say veeklog, Your avatar is the best!


Walter Solchek at it's best!!

"Calmer than You."

Noah
09-28-2008, 7:39 PM
"calmer than you"

LMAO!!!

SJgunguy24
09-28-2008, 8:53 PM
UCLAplinker, I know that pump shotguns are going to go boom unless they've been run over with something. I'm comparing autoloading shotguns.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 8:59 PM
I'm with those who agree it's ok for LEOs to get some exemptions from the gun laws because of the function they perform. They need the tools to do the job.

But the idea that "extensive background investigation inc. a polygraph and psychological exam, and tons of training and constant in-service training" some how make a LEO more safe/qualified etc then a civilian to own, use, and carry firearms is complete bunk and I wish people would stop using that argument.

I'm in complete disagreement with this.

One by one it can easily be argued that, with the proper procedures in place, there isn't a single item law enforcement should have that law-abiding private citizens should not.

How is exemption from the "safe handgun" certification a public good? Either a handgun is safe or not. In the hands of LE, does that suddenly change?

Assault weapons? Is there anyone rational that thinks the AWB is anything but an attempt to remove scary looking guns?

Suppressors? Anyone who has used a suppressor knows they don't prevent sound. It was an easy, slam dunk, make everyone think we're safer when we're really not legislation. "Hitmen use them in movies, they must be scary and bad." :rolleyes:

Concealed carry? I don't even want to start this debate.

the list goes on...



FWIW, a local LEO, Police Chief Gunderson of Blue Lake, was just convicted of a felony for owning a full-auto MP5 and a silencer for a pistol.

Of course, the local DA doesn't bother prosecuting criminals. It's apparently much better to prosecute LEOs.

Ben

An LEO that breaks the law is a criminal. The DA prosecuted a criminal named Gunderson.

There have been plenty of criminals who wear LE blue.



because we don't face the same threats they face day in and day out...

Then why does the military issue weapons to cooks? If it's possible to need it, then it should be legal to own it.

Bimmer2
09-28-2008, 9:17 PM
An LEO that breaks the law is a criminal. The DA prosecuted a criminal named Gunderson.
There have been plenty of criminals who wear LE blue.


You're not from Humboldt County. You couldn't understand.

I applaud going after dirty cops, but this was a witchhunt. They searched Gunderson's house as part of an investigation into alledged "spousal rape" and found the guns. His wife testified for him at trial, and he was found innocent of rape, but they made the gun charges stick.

So he broke the law, and he got caught, right? OK. I wouldn't have a problem with that, except the local DA seems to go looking for problems like this, and he can't seem to do ANYTHING about all the marijuana growing operations right under his nose.

Instead, last year the DA tried to get the grand jury to indict the top two Eureka PD cops for manslaughter (for what supervising a stand-off that ended in a justifiable shooting of the suspect).

Humboldt County is beautiful, but it's like living in Colombia.

Ben

PS: At least our sheriff has a "shall issue" policy regarding CCWs.

ohsmily
09-28-2008, 9:37 PM
Why should law enforcement officers, who are nothing more than paid citizens on patrol(COP)

Ouch, fail. Urban myth. http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/cop.asp

ohsmily
09-28-2008, 9:41 PM
FWIW, a local LEO, Police Chief Gunderson of Blue Lake, was just convicted of a felony for owning a full-auto MP5 and a silencer for a pistol.

Of course, the local DA doesn't bother prosecuting criminals. It's apparently much better to prosecute LEOs.

Ben

Uh, being in possession of those things made him a criminal. Thus, the DA prosecuted a criminal. Your statement doesn't make sense.

ohsmily
09-28-2008, 9:45 PM
Walter Solchek at it's best!!

"Calmer than You."

Its Walter Sobchak, not Solchek. Great character.

veeklog
09-28-2008, 11:01 PM
Its Walter Sobchak, not Solchek. Great character.


Love the guy.

"This is what happens when you f**k a stranger in the a*s!""

rynando
09-29-2008, 1:31 AM
You're not from Humboldt County. You couldn't understand . . .

OK. I wouldn't have a problem with that, except the local DA seems to go looking for problems like this, and he can't seem to do ANYTHING about all the marijuana growing operations right under his nose.

It the DA started closing down Humboldt County grow-ops the entire local economy would collapse.

R

Noah
09-29-2008, 7:56 PM
hand me the ringer Dude