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View Full Version : Saiga .308 vs Springfield M1A


jlh95811
09-25-2008, 9:49 PM
Is it even close?
I'm looking into buying a .308 carbine but $1500+ is just so far outta my budget. I can't stop buying guns that long to save up.

The saigas are cheap. Do you get more than you pay for?
Any experience with either or both would be helpful.
Also let me know if there are other good alternatives.

tombinghamthegreat
09-25-2008, 10:08 PM
The saiga 308 is a great choice. From my experence with my saiga(different caliber) its a great gun for 300 dollars and its fairly accurate. The gun can withstand lots of abuse and if something bad happens, your russian friend will be their to keep you alive. I would recommend the 7.62x39 since it is much cheaper ammo and with some small mods the gun in 7.62x39 can except AK mags.

jlh95811
09-25-2008, 10:12 PM
I have 6 sks's so I'm not really looking to go with another 7.62x39
I have bought soooo much .308 and just can't find time to shoot it all through my Tikka tactical.(5 round mag) plus I want to go .308 semi-auto.

Q
09-25-2008, 10:17 PM
You can look for a used norinco polytech m14. They're chrome lined. 700-800.

thedrickel
09-25-2008, 10:56 PM
You are wanting FAL for 8-900$.

jlh95811
09-25-2008, 11:15 PM
having trouble locating both fals and norincos

thedrickel
09-25-2008, 11:54 PM
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=11


(membership required)

chsk9
09-25-2008, 11:57 PM
you really cannot compare a saiga to a M1A IMO. post a picture on your wall and save up for the M1A. you can thank me later.

aplinker
09-26-2008, 1:58 AM
308 Saigas are nice rifles. They're not M1As. Their sights and handling aren't comparable.

FAL is a good in-between choice (a 308 Saiga will run about $450, a nice fal is about 800-900, and an M1A runs $1300-4k)

Greenspartan117
09-26-2008, 2:23 AM
Okay, so this is what you want so far... you want something that is less than $1500, shoots .308, be a semi auto...

I would go either a FAL or the HK flat G3 clone that is coming out. The flat would require alot more work, but also allow you to build as you go and customize the gun's parts. Besides it will give you a little more ownership in its procurement. Either choice is up to you. BTW I love my Tikka T3 :-P

http://lscmanufacturing.com/inv_hk-94-flat.php

Here's the link and the start off price is about $250 :-P

jlh95811
09-26-2008, 7:55 AM
post a picture on your wall and save up for the M1A. you can thank me later.

Looks like I might have to though it could take years.(impulse buyer)

I'm not seeing anyone talk about how their saiga has a high trouble free round count. I just don't think they will last as long.

TurboFall
09-26-2008, 9:40 AM
Looks like I might have to though it could take years.(impulse buyer)

I'm not seeing anyone talk about how their saiga has a high trouble free round count. I just don't think they will last as long.

It's an AK, it's implied :p

E Pluribus Unum
09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
I'm not seeing anyone talk about how their saiga has a high trouble free round count. I just don't think they will last as long.

That is because the M1A is just as reliable as a saiga in normal shooting conditions. I'm not sure about shooting it in a mud bath, or going full auto for 10,000 rounds in a row but normal shooting conditions. Not to say that the M1A would not hold up, I just don't think anyone has ever tortured an M1A like that.

aplinker
09-26-2008, 2:17 PM
Okay, so this is what you want so far... you want something that is less than $1500, shoots .308, be a semi auto...

I would go either a FAL or the HK flat G3 clone that is coming out. The flat would require alot more work, but also allow you to build as you go and customize the gun's parts. Besides it will give you a little more ownership in its procurement. Either choice is up to you. BTW I love my Tikka T3 :-P

http://lscmanufacturing.com/inv_hk-94-flat.php

Here's the link and the start off price is about $250 :-P

:confused: LSC Makes flats for the HK94 (aka semi-auto MP5 - a 9mm gun).

If he wants a G3 he can buy/build a CETME or HK91 clone. I, personally, am not a big fan of the HK91. I prefer FAL.

Saiga is a perfectly good lead flinger, it just doesn't run as nice as the others.

Bongos
09-26-2008, 2:44 PM
That is because the M1A is just as reliable as a saiga in normal shooting conditions. I'm not sure about shooting it in a mud bath, or going full auto for 10,000 rounds in a row but normal shooting conditions. Not to say that the M1A would not hold up, I just don't think anyone has ever tortured an M1A like that.

Does the Vietnam War count? as going through the mud, high humidity,.. many soldiers traded their M16 for M14 for reliability, stoping power, as well as long range...M1A is just the civilian version (true it's not forged receiver or automatic). Keep in mind the M14 was develop between the M1 Garand and the current M16/AR15.

FYI, I do not have any experience with the 308 Saiga, but I have had experience with a Yugo M70 (308 AK) and it was totally unreliable (partly due to the mag), many have tried getting the AK to use the NATO round... The only reliable AK style 308 that was reliable was the Galil 308. Again no experience with the 308 Saiga

Jorge
09-26-2008, 3:15 PM
Just picked up my Saiga .308 about a week ago. So far I've only ran 150 rounds through it, but no problems at all. You might want to check the saiga 308 forum. Posters there have much higher round counts and may provide the info you're looking for.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=6

E Pluribus Unum
09-26-2008, 5:37 PM
Does the Vietnam War count? as going through the mud, high humidity,.. many soldiers traded their M16 for M14 for reliability, stoping power, as well as long range...M1A is just the civilian version (true it's not forged receiver or automatic). Keep in mind the M14 was develop between the M1 Garand and the current M16/AR15.

FYI, I do not have any experience with the 308 Saiga, but I have had experience with a Yugo M70 (308 AK) and it was totally unreliable (partly due to the mag), many have tried getting the AK to use the NATO round... The only reliable AK style 308 that was reliable was the Galil 308. Again no experience with the 308 Saiga


I am very familiar with the M14 and its development and for my money, its what I would carry to battle.

You cannot however discount the concrete reliability of the AK-47; that is its only strength.

lioneaglegriffin
09-26-2008, 5:52 PM
That is because the M1A is just as reliable as a saiga in normal shooting conditions. I'm not sure about shooting it in a mud bath, or going full auto for 10,000 rounds in a row but normal shooting conditions. Not to say that the M1A would not hold up, I just don't think anyone has ever tortured an M1A like that.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1541138791/bclid1364171724/bctid1344510759

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0-3OQsnR-w

Springfield M1A torture tests

one successfull, one not. see if you can figure out why. ;)

jlh95811
09-26-2008, 6:33 PM
I am very familiar with the M14 and its development and for my money, its what I would carry to battle.

You cannot however discount the concrete reliability of the AK-47; that is its only strength.

Were not talking about aks here. .308 put much more strain on a gun than 7.62x39.
I just don't know if a Saiga will hold up under that kind of power for a long time like an M1A would.
That's kinda what I'm trying to find out.
Also interested in how they feel.

technique
09-26-2008, 6:35 PM
no comparison there. I say between the two, M1A.

Also +1 to FAL.

jlh95811
09-26-2008, 6:46 PM
That is because the M1A is just as reliable as a saiga in normal shooting conditions. I'm not sure about shooting it in a mud bath, or going full auto for 10,000 rounds in a row but normal shooting conditions. Not to say that the M1A would not hold up, I just don't think anyone has ever tortured an M1A like that.

See now I was thinking the other way around. I was hoping the Saiga was as reliable as the M1A.
So you think the Saiga is a better buy?

tombinghamthegreat
09-26-2008, 8:05 PM
See now I was thinking the other way around. I was hoping the Saiga was as reliable as the M1A.
So you think the Saiga is a better buy?

If money is an issue then the saiga is the way to go since they are cheap. You can spend $1500+ on a M1A or you could spend the same amount and get 4 saiga 308. If you look on this forum saigas are popular.

M. Sage
09-26-2008, 8:35 PM
Were not talking about aks here. .308 put much more strain on a gun than 7.62x39.
I just don't know if a Saiga will hold up under that kind of power for a long time like an M1A would.
That's kinda what I'm trying to find out.
Also interested in how they feel.

.308 power? Big deal. The AK's components are basically a re-organized M1 Garand. .308 doesn't put nearly the strain that 12 gauge puts on the Saiga shotguns.

The M1A will be more accurate, I'd expect about 2 MOA from the Saiga, though (3 max). The Saiga's sights suck, but it comes with a side-rail for some very nice but inexpensive optics that are available. The POSP scope is nice. The Saiga will be a lot easier to strip and clean.

E Pluribus Unum
09-26-2008, 8:43 PM
See now I was thinking the other way around. I was hoping the Saiga was as reliable as the M1A.
So you think the Saiga is a better buy?

I have no experience with the Saiga. I know that the only thing a real AK-47 has is dependability.

jlh95811
09-26-2008, 8:57 PM
.308 power? Big deal. The AK's components are basically a re-organized M1 Garand. .308 doesn't put nearly the strain that 12 gauge puts on the Saiga shotguns.

The M1A will be more accurate, I'd expect about 2 MOA from the Saiga, though (3 max). The Saiga's sights suck, but it comes with a side-rail for some very nice but inexpensive optics that are available. The POSP scope is nice. The Saiga will be a lot easier to strip and clean.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that .308 is a SUPER Powerful round. Just that it is quite a bit more for a rifle to handle than a 7.62x39.

Two Shots
09-26-2008, 9:05 PM
[QUOTE=Bongos;1562705]Does the Vietnam War count? as going through the mud, high humidity,.. many soldiers traded their M16 for M14 for reliability, stoping power, as well as long range...M1A is just the civilian version (true it's not forged receiver or automatic). Keep in mind the M14 was develop between the M1 Garand and the current M16/AR15.

My Wifes Uncle went thru two tours in Vietnam and carried the M14 and loved that weapon. He would just say it was very affective on the enemy and was highly reliable. It's a proven battle rifle.

jlh95811
09-26-2008, 10:20 PM
Now I'm sure the Saigas are built to shoot surplus ammo right?
How about the M1A? Brass only or will it shoot the cheapest stuff I through at it?

(found some stuff called Brown Bear for less than $8 per 20 rds)

Greenspartan117
09-26-2008, 10:38 PM
:confused: LSC Makes flats for the HK94 (aka semi-auto MP5 - a 9mm gun).

If he wants a G3 he can buy/build a CETME or HK91 clone. I, personally, am not a big fan of the HK91. I prefer FAL.

Saiga is a perfectly good lead flinger, it just doesn't run as nice as the others.

whoops my bad... yeah I missed up my numbers :-P Sorry. The Saiga is a good gun, I just don't like the looks. I'll give one a shot one of these days and I'm sure I'll fall in love with it :-)

tombinghamthegreat
09-26-2008, 10:59 PM
Now I'm sure the Saigas are built to shoot surplus ammo right?
How about the M1A? Brass only or will it shoot the cheapest stuff I through at it?

(found some stuff called Brown Bear for less than $8 per 20 rds)

I have no experence with the M1A but the saiga rifles can fire cheap ammo like wolf with no problems.

jacques
09-26-2008, 11:06 PM
I have never seen anyone shoot non brass ammo through a M1A.

My Saiga, I only shoot wolf, as cheap as I can find it, all day long.

I agree with above posts that the M1A and Saiga are completely different beasts. But I have seen people shoot the M1A's and they can get very tight groups.

jlh95811
09-26-2008, 11:08 PM
Tight groups are good.

aplinker
09-26-2008, 11:46 PM
Tight groups are good.

308 Saigas are no slouch... if you're running surplus or cheap combloc ammo you'll see no difference between them.

Saigas deficiency is iron sights, ergonomics.

M1A is just deficient in price.

FALs are great, but you do need to neuter them in some way (a wing is a great choice to have detachables with a brake, but it would be a DIY project).

Bongos
09-27-2008, 8:21 PM
I've never used any wolf type ammo through my M1A, just military grade surplus like Radway Green, Lake City, British, etc.. no problems. As far as Price if you are patient, you can pick one up for about $1200-$1400; one sold a couple of weeks ago for $1000. It's really hard to compare both the Saiga and M1A, different designs and different price range... As far as FAL, Great rifle and specifically designed for the 7.62 round. I only trust Imbel, Argintine, and Belgium mfg FAL.. I'de stay away from Century imports... but the days of $500-$700 are long gone... a decent FAL with a Imbel receiver and parts kit would run in the $1000 range and the quality depends on the workmanship of the person whom put it together... Begiums and Argintines hover around the $3,000 or more mark!

FYI, the original 7.62 AK designs were the dragunov and that round was the rimmed 7.62x54r, I've seen alot of attempts to incorporate the 7.62x51 round and as mentioned , very few rifle made were successful in the reliability arena, maybe Saiga has fixed it, they are afterall using single stack mags; which I can see solve the past mag problems.

Then again you cna always look at the H&K G3 designs as another option.. keep in mind these have more reciol due to the design of the gun

Darklyte27
09-27-2008, 8:51 PM
M1A is my vote... just gota get a job again

jlh95811
09-27-2008, 9:02 PM
Thanks for all the help guys.
I think I'm gonna save up and go with the M1A Scout in synthetic.

tommyid1
09-27-2008, 10:21 PM
You are wanting FAL for 8-900$.

i hope you dont reload and its not a fluted chamber cause those things destroy brass.

Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck
09-27-2008, 11:40 PM
FYI, the original 7.62 AK designs were the dragunov and that round was the rimmed 7.62x54r, I've seen alot of attempts to incorporate the 7.62x51 round and as mentioned , very few rifle made were successful in the reliability arena, maybe Saiga has fixed it, they are afterall using single stack mags; which I can see solve the past mag problems.


The SVD isn't related to the Kalashnikov IIRC.

If one of the posters in this forum (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:0Wm56N7dTjoJ:www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-20631.html+Saiga+receiver&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a) is correct, the Saigas do sport beefier receivers than the 7.62 X 39 AKs.

Fantasma
09-28-2008, 12:00 AM
How about a Cetme? Is that also a good "Middle" ground between M1A and Saiga?

jlh95811
09-28-2008, 12:06 AM
How about a Cetme? Is that also a good "Middle" ground between M1A and Saiga?

Bout the ugliest rifle I ever laid eyes on. Plus I need something that is Cali legal without question.

Still don't understand why we can buy M1A's with detachables.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 1:38 AM
I've shot plenty of combloc steel cased ammo through M1As without hiccups. It's a good platform. I wouldn't sweat shooting anything through it.

If AK sights didn't suck so much the 308 Saiga would be a great gun.

Bout the ugliest rifle I ever laid eyes on. Plus I need something that is Cali legal without question.

Still don't understand why we can buy M1A's with detachables.

Are you being facetious? :confused:

windsheer
09-28-2008, 7:40 AM
Get both, as for shootin rocks and high power plinking the saigas so fun and light and you really don't have to clean very often them just douse them with clp and a boresnake shake it dry wipe it down about once a year.
Hurryup and get a saiga first as they may not be available for long.

M1a is truly cal leagl thats good reason to get both.
Then get a scout perha ps 18 inch barrel . I do not recommetnd a national match model as they are too picky with ammo as in no surplus ammo cause the chambers are tight and set up for mach ammo.

I usually grab my 16inch M1a though as it is my favorite at the moment.

Rob454
09-28-2008, 7:56 AM
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that .308 is a SUPER Powerful round. Just that it is quite a bit more for a rifle to handle than a 7.62x39.


Yeah but Im sure that they redesigned the rifle to withstand a 308 round.
If you cant afford the M14 then buy the Saiga. THEN save up the money to get a m14
Rob

jlh95811
09-28-2008, 9:30 PM
I can't find Saigas in my area. Getting them transfered is expensive. M1A price might jump again too.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 9:42 PM
JK Supply will help you out.

FMJBT
09-28-2008, 10:05 PM
i hope you dont reload and its not a fluted chamber cause those things destroy brass.

It's not the flutes on an HK/CETME that destroy brass, but the impact of the brass hitting the side of the receiver during ejection. Badly dented cases are pretty common without an add-on port buffer. The flutes tend to imprint lines along the sides of the case which often look much worse than they actually are. By design, the HK operating system actually places less pressure induced stress on the brass than other rifles because the flutes allow pressure equalization between the inner and outer surfaces of the case. Improperly cut flutes in some of the U.S. made clones are probably to blame for the myth that brass out of HK's is not reloadable. Flutes that do not extend far enough into the freebore of the barrel would cause excess pressure inside the case, forcing the brass to form into the flutes. In this case, the brass would not be reloadable.


FWIW, I'd go with the 308 Saiga. The M1A is definitely superior as far as ergonomics and sights go, but IMHO not worth the extra money over the Saiga.

aplinker
09-28-2008, 10:27 PM
What's wrong with this picture? ;)







You are wanting FAL for 8-900$.

i hope you dont reload and its not a fluted chamber cause those things destroy brass.


It's not the flutes on an HK/CETME that destroy brass, but the impact of the brass hitting the side of the receiver during ejection. Badly dented cases are pretty common without an add-on port buffer. The flutes tend to imprint lines along the sides of the case which often look much worse than they actually are. By design, the HK operating system actually places less pressure induced stress on the brass than other rifles because the flutes allow pressure equalization between the inner and outer surfaces of the case. Improperly cut flutes in some of the U.S. made clones are probably to blame for the myth that brass out of HK's is not reloadable. Flutes that do not extend far enough into the freebore of the barrel would cause excess pressure inside the case, forcing the brass to form into the flutes. In this case, the brass would not be reloadable.


FWIW, I'd go with the 308 Saiga. The M1A is definitely superior as far as ergonomics and sights go, but IMHO not worth the extra money over the Saiga.

InsightsBest
09-28-2008, 10:31 PM
If you can scrape up the dough theres no comparison go with the M1!! but as they sd before the saiga might not be available for much longer and u might kick yourself for not buying it!! crunch time/quick descision IMO

FMJBT
09-28-2008, 11:17 PM
What's wrong with this picture? ;)

Lol, I completely forgot to add that FAL's do NOT have fluted chambers. CETME's were brought up a couple of times in the preceding posts though. You know how I love to defend CETME/HK's, and as an added benefit I get to increase my post count too. I just did it again :eek:

saki302
09-29-2008, 8:31 AM
The Saiga .308 is probably based on the PSL (which was upsized for the 7.62x54 round, and also comes in .308!).
I would have no worries about its durability in the long term.

-Dave

tommyid1
09-29-2008, 3:13 PM
haha im an idiot. lol there wasa guy at the range shooting a ptr 91 or whatever (i get them confused) and was ditching his brass. i took it home and cleaned it and they were all dented up and the lines from the fluted chamber just make em look bad. i jsut tossed the brass in my recycle bucket i dont trust to use em.