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NSR500
09-23-2008, 11:13 PM
As the title states; "What makes a Dragunov Accurate?".

The Sarcastic & Obvious answer is... "The Person pulling the trigger..." Ha, ha, ha ;)

But Seriously...

Is it the Barrel, Trunion, etc???

Eagle87Tango
09-23-2008, 11:20 PM
From what I've seen the main body is very similiar to an AK body. So I'm assuming it's the length and bore of the barrel

jumbopanda
09-23-2008, 11:22 PM
Ammo/barrel? Btw, long barrels don't improve accuracy, they just increase muzzle velocity.

Pryde
09-24-2008, 12:27 AM
From what I've seen the main body is very similiar to an AK body. So I'm assuming it's the length and bore of the barrel

The internals for a real SVD (not the fake PSL dragunov) are completely different than an AK. An AK is a long stroke piston, the dragunov is a short stroke piston. (Less mass transfer = more accuracy) The dragunov handguard is also free floated.

The Cable Guy
09-24-2008, 12:47 AM
Ammo/barrel? Btw, long barrels don't improve accuracy, they just increase muzzle velocity.

So you're saying Rifles aren't more accurate than pistols, they just shoot faster rounds?

aplinker
09-24-2008, 12:52 AM
So you're saying Rifles aren't more accurate than pistols, they just shoot faster rounds?

No, he's saying that a longer rifle barrel doesn't necessarily make the gun more accurate.

Handguns and rifles are different in accuracy for a lot of reasons - barrel length isn't really the 1st reason... nor the 5th... it's pretty far down the list.

The Cable Guy
09-24-2008, 1:01 AM
No, he's saying that a longer rifle barrel doesn't necessarily make the gun more accurate.

Handguns and rifles are different in accuracy for a lot of reasons - barrel length isn't really the 1st reason... nor the 5th... it's pretty far down the list.

But it does play a role correct? or am I wrong? if I were to fire a group from a pistol, and again with the same caliber from a rifle, would the rifle produce tighter groupings? Let's take human error out of it and say that these two firearms were shot from a zero'd bench clamp type of setup.

On a side note, would the velocity of the round increase?

If I was shooting a .22LR rated at 1230FPS from a pistol, would it maintain the same velocity if I was shooting it out of a rifle?

trinydex
09-24-2008, 1:08 AM
the longer something is the harder it is to make or keep it stiff. stiffer could be interpretted as better for barrels. stiffer with more material means heavier. heavier is harder to lug around but helps a bit in dealing with heat. so it's optimizing some opposing variables....

then you can throw the bullet velocity thing into the mix.... and get really frustrated about what's "best" or what's "accurate" and or "practical"

saki302
09-24-2008, 1:08 AM
The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity- to a point. Once you have no more powder to burn, the velocity decreases with length.

With iron sights, long barrels give longer sight radius, which equals better accuracy.

With modern rifles and optics, shorter barrels (to a point) will usually be more accurate- they are stiffer relative to a longer barrel with the same diameter. But, make it too short and you sacrifice velocity, so it's all a trade off, and certain lengths may work better because of harmonics, or work better with certain loads. You also need a minimum length to put a good spin on a bullet (what that may be, I have no idea).

As far as the SVD accuracy goes- what makes it accurate is GOOD AMMO!
The PSL using the AK action has proven to be just as accurate as the SVD rifles- but both need good ammo, usually handloads, to shoot to full potential.

-Dave

Josh
09-24-2008, 1:11 AM
But it does play a role correct? or am I wrong? if I were to fire a group from a pistol, and again with the same caliber from a rifle, would the rifle produce tighter groupings? Let's take human error out of it and say that these two firearms were shot from a zero'd bench clamp type of setup.

On a side note, would the velocity of the round increase?

If I was shooting a .22LR rated at 1230FPS from a pistol, would it maintain the same velocity if I was shooting it out of a rifle?


Most handguns use a completly different type of action vs a rifle and thus are more difficult to bring up to the same accuracy level as almost everything is moving (slide, barrel, locking blocks, etc) where a rifle usually only had a bolt and a piston that move around.

The only role barrel length plays in the accuracy of a firearm is in velocity (enough powder burn to keeping the bullet supersonic out to the distance required) and rigidity.

aplinker
09-24-2008, 1:13 AM
But it does play a role correct? or am I wrong? if I were to fire a group from a pistol, and again with the same caliber from a rifle, would the rifle produce tighter groupings? Let's take human error out of it and say that these two firearms were shot from a zero'd bench clamp type of setup.

On a side note, would the velocity of the round increase?

If I was shooting a .22LR rated at 1230FPS from a pistol, would it maintain the same velocity if I was shooting it out of a rifle?

Pistol vs. rifle is changing parameters. Pistols and rifles (mostly) operate very differently. Pistol accuracy, as such, is governed by different issues than rifles.

Sight radius is the biggest difference between a pistol and a rifle. Types of cartridge is another.

Wind is where velocity helps - increasing velocity reduces wind effects and, since wind is partially random. This can help accuracy at distances where wind becomes an issue, as there is always some uncontrolled amount of wind effect. However, if you add velocity by barrel length alone (without adding rigidity to the barrel) you can actually hurt accuracy.

The Cable Guy
09-24-2008, 1:20 AM
I see, so what is the main factor(s) in accuracy when it comes to barrels? If it's not length, is it twist ratio, or bullet-to-bore matching?

jumbopanda
09-24-2008, 1:40 AM
I see, so what is the main factor(s) in accuracy when it comes to barrels? If it's not length, is it twist ratio, or bullet-to-bore matching?

Twist vs. bullet weight, quality/precision of the barrel, crown condition, not necessarily in that order.

ElvenSoul
09-24-2008, 2:06 AM
the one my uncle used to have, well it had about as much accuraccy as a out of the box FAL

Although much lighter and just darn easier to handle

it was one of the Chinese NDMs in 7.62x51

akjunkie
09-24-2008, 7:07 AM
i have a chinese NDM.. the handguard is Not free floating.

30Cal
09-24-2008, 9:37 AM
I see, so what is the main factor(s) in accuracy when it comes to barrels? If it's not length, is it twist ratio, or bullet-to-bore matching?

Those things are easy. The hard ones come, the ones that make the difference between a mass-produced military barrel and a match grade barrel, come during manufacturing: straightness, uniformity of diameter, concentricity of the bore with respect to the outside wall, muzzle crown.

It's a lot easier to make good pistol barrels, being as they're so short, and minor flaws here and there do not matter so much over their short length.

xrMike
09-24-2008, 10:11 AM
the longer something is the harder it is to make or keep it stiff.That's what I keep telling the ladies!

Soldier415
09-24-2008, 10:26 AM
the longer something is the harder it is to make or keep it stiff.

They have pills for that now...

armandolo
09-24-2008, 10:38 AM
Dragunov also has a milled receiver. Here are couple of pictures of the internals vs AK. SVD Bolt is alot shorter (does not have the piston attached to it)
I also took some comparative measurements:

Receiver thickness: SVD = 3.56mm, AK = 1mm
Barrel thickness: SVD = 16.57mm, AK = 14.94mm

SJgunguy24
09-24-2008, 10:53 AM
They have pills for that now...


They do????????? I keep telling my girl it's a suck start:p

yellowfin
09-24-2008, 11:00 AM
The bolt of a Dragunov is has locking lugs like the AR15, which may also contribute to it.

Army
09-24-2008, 11:08 AM
It is not accurate in the same sense that western weapons are called accurate. It is more accurate than an AK.....that's about it.

armandolo
09-24-2008, 11:13 AM
SVD is based on the RPK

Complitely Untrue. RPK is based on AK, and is virtually identical to ak. SAme bolt piston, internals. SVD is complitely different.

Army
09-24-2008, 11:20 AM
:)

I'm at work, and my "sidekick" put that in while I was getting a Dr Pepper.







He's fired :D

armandolo
09-24-2008, 11:24 AM
:)

He's fired :D

Cool, one more person to apply for unemployment and contribute to the financial mess we have. Thanks alot Army ;)

Jarhead
09-24-2008, 12:48 PM
It is not accurate in the same sense that western weapons are called accurate. It is more accurate than an AK.....that's about it.


+ 1 on this statement, especially not in the class of the M-14 and FAL

Pryde
09-24-2008, 2:29 PM
A real SVD is far more accurate than any M14 or FAL.
A PSL is not.


Real SVDs are not all that common. If you are talking about one you saw at the range, it is most likely a PSL. If you are talking about one you saw in Iraq, it is also most likely a Tabuk which is pretty much the same thing as a PSL, both of those guns are RPK/AK actions not a true SVD.

With the proper ammunition a SVD can achieve consistent MOA to probably about 400-500yds, what makes it better than the M14 is that it will continue to shoot to this accuracy standard after taking abuse, the M14 will not.

Steyr_223
09-24-2008, 3:12 PM
The right ammo helps, regardless if you have a real Dragunov or a PSL. Using Wolf or surplus Bulgarian ammo will result in less then stellar accuracy..

Russian 7N1 or the even better 7N14 ammo would help assuming the rifle and shooter does their part..CZ Silver tip also has good accuracy..

You may want to purchase a small ammount of the 7N1 currently on the market and try it..

More info..

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo030.htm


Where to buy

http://www.outdoormarksman.com/product_info.php?cPath=65_63_48&products_id=68219

http://www.outdoormarksman.com/images/PRODUCTS/89/73/89734.JPG

grammaton76
09-24-2008, 3:44 PM
Some day, somehow, I will end up with access to a Dragunov for a while. I will take gigabytes worth of macro shots and post about it in one of my analysis articles (like the RRA 9mm one I just did).

Unfortunately, I have no idea when that day will come.

If I didn't hate driving so much, I'd consider just tossing out a post saying, "Hey, who's got one of these, and can I come visit and take pictures?"

motorhead
09-24-2008, 6:13 PM
REAL svd's were never imported in quantity. just like real russian ak's.(not plo kits).

berg
09-24-2008, 6:24 PM
Some day, somehow, I will end up with access to a Dragunov for a while. I will take gigabytes worth of macro shots and post about it in one of my analysis articles (like the RRA 9mm one I just did).

Unfortunately, I have no idea when that day will come.

If I didn't hate driving so much, I'd consider just tossing out a post saying, "Hey, who's got one of these, and can I come visit and take pictures?"

What kind of pictures are you looking for?

Here are some closeups: http://www.dragunov.net/internals.html

grammaton76
09-24-2008, 6:31 PM
What kind of pictures are you looking for?

Here are some closeups: http://www.dragunov.net/internals.html

Ooo, very neat.

I'll still probably shoot my own at some point in the future so I'll have the rights to the ones I shot, but these pics are really useful and will more than answer my curiousity. Thanks!

...btw, this is going to be my new response link any time folks trot out the "PSL is the same as a Dragonov, waaaa!" crap. :)

TRAP55
09-24-2008, 9:19 PM
A real SVD is far more accurate than any M14 or FAL.
By "any M14", do you include the M21 Sniper Rifle? If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.
A M21 will hold better accuracy consistantly past 600 meters than a Soviet SVD. Neither one of these rifles was designed as a true "sniper" rifle to begin with. They were designed as a squad support weapon to extend the range of fire.

Pryde
09-24-2008, 11:17 PM
By "any M14", do you include the M21 Sniper Rifle? If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.
A M21 will hold better accuracy consistantly past 600 meters than a Soviet SVD. Neither one of these rifles was designed as a true "sniper" rifle to begin with. They were designed as a squad support weapon to extend the range of fire.

The M14 was designed as an iron sighted battle rifle, it has now been dressed up to be a DM rifle because its in the inventory and can serve in that role in a pinch. A rack grade M14 is a 3 MOA rifle. The SVD was designed from the ground up to be a DMR platform. If KAC could produce SR25s fast enough to meet demand and lower the price by about 2k apiece, there would be no more M14s in the DoD inventory.