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View Full Version : Prince 50 vs Bullet Button vs MMG vs U15


edittman1
09-23-2008, 2:04 PM
Which one do you have on your primary OLL?

I know some folks have multiple OLL's, but which one is your primary rifle that you use in public. I think this best denotes what you're most comfortable with.

rbgaynor
09-23-2008, 2:05 PM
Bullet button.

technique
09-23-2008, 2:06 PM
I'm nice so I wont tell you to use the search button. but its gonna happen.



I have and use all with the exception of the u15, but I have owned one.
Also you forgot the b-15

apbrian112
09-23-2008, 2:09 PM
and since most people have multiple setups, multiple poll picks should be allowed.
i picked MMG cus i have 2 builds with a MMG and 1 with a P50/B15.

DedEye
09-23-2008, 2:23 PM
I'm equally comfortable with all of those choices, and take more than one in public at the same time.

Bowser
09-23-2008, 2:26 PM
use the search button.

3 characters.

hybridatsun350
09-23-2008, 2:28 PM
I've got a featureless build with a MMG, and a BB build. I'm not going to vote because I can't pick both, and I wouldn't want to prejudice the poll. :)

sorensen440
09-23-2008, 2:28 PM
B15

sthornwall
09-23-2008, 2:33 PM
BB, it's the most convenient and least ridiculous of the four choices for any situation IMO. Not to bash anyone who uses the other options though. The U15 and MM grip gives you more freedom for dropping the mag without use of a tool but not a fan of how they feel in my hand. I like having the OLL set up as close as possible in a traditional way and the BB gives you that in a SHTF situation. I did have the P50 on my rifles but upgraded since.

tenbrook
09-23-2008, 2:35 PM
Bullet Button. The prince 50 is lame unless you like top loading. As soon as you take out the Allen screw on a prince 50 you have created an assault weapon!

edittman1
09-23-2008, 2:36 PM
I've got a featureless build with a MMG, and a BB build. I'm not going to vote because I can't pick both, and I wouldn't want to prejudice the poll. :)

Which one would you grab if you could only pick one. :)

The purpose of this thread, is to attempt to identify which setup people are most comfortable within the grey area of the law we have found ourselves inside of. I find it interesting that most people seem to be voting for the bullet button so far, since it is the one that allows you the most functionality and is "bouncing off the rev limiter" in terms of the legality it's representing in the grey area.

Also, no need to state what you have. I don't think anyone wants to have it documented what they have, in case the DOJ ever does decide to conduct a witch hunt and uses this forum as a source to locate offenders.

MB260E
09-23-2008, 2:41 PM
Had a p50, but replaced that as soon as I found out about B15.

DedEye
09-23-2008, 2:45 PM
Which one would you grab if you could only pick one. :)

The purpose of this thread, is to attempt to identify which setup people are most comfortable within the grey area of the law we have found ourselves inside of. I find it interesting that most people seem to be voting for the bullet button so far, since it is the one that allows you the most functionality and is "bouncing off the rev limiter" in terms of the legality it's representing in the grey area.

Also, no need to state what you have. I don't think anyone wants to have it documented what they have, in case the DOJ ever does decide to conduct a witch hunt and uses this forum as a source to locate offenders.

You aren't getting answers based on legality, you're getting answers based on what people like using the most. All the options you have listed are equally legal and safe, and none of them are "bouncing off the rev limiter."

There is no grey area. The Bullet Button is legal. The Monsterman Grip is legal. Et cetera.

edittman1
09-23-2008, 3:05 PM
I own one of the four mentioned items to make my OLL compliant.

But, until anyone officially judges a ruling, I don't think any are deemed to be illegal, so thus they must be legal.

But I think you're sadly mistaken if you think it's a cut and dry case of legal vs legal, and that none of them float in a grey area. Take your OLL and show it to the first cop, and we'll see how you feel about it being in a grey area.

DedEye
09-23-2008, 3:12 PM
I own one of the four mentioned items to make my OLL compliant.

But, until anyone officially judges a ruling, I don't think any are deemed to be illegal, so thus they must be legal.

But I think you're sadly mistaken if you think it's a cut and dry case of legal vs legal, and that none of them float in a grey area. Take your OLL and show it to the first cop, and we'll see how you feel about it being in a grey area.

Been there, done that. Would do it again in a heartbeat. If the cop wants to ruin his career by arresting me despite being provided with all the necessary and relevant PC explaining clearly and conclusively that any of the ARs thusly configured are legal, that's his problem. The rifles configured with the components you mentioned are a clear case of legal vs. legal. Just because an ignorant cop or DA doesn't know that and you end up going through a series of headaches and potentially paying lawyers a large chunk of cash to prove yourself right doesn't change that fact.

Flat Broke
09-23-2008, 3:16 PM
I run a mmg on my first build because I wanted to build a rifle that could take >10 round mags and anyone in my family could use and load magazines without confusion. It feels fine, but kills the astheics of the rifle imho. I have another lower waiting for a lpk and I may go BB for that one just so I have the option to run a different stock. It's my sincere hope that sooner or later I'll be able to run the factory release in this state with a pistol grip attached to my rifle. For the time being, I'll roll featureless for my SHTF rifle.

Chris

pdq_wizzard
09-23-2008, 3:17 PM
I own one of the four mentioned items to make my OLL compliant.

But, until anyone officially judges a ruling, I don't think any are deemed to be illegal, so thus they must be legal.

But I think you're sadly mistaken if you think it's a cut and dry case of legal vs legal, and that none of them float in a grey area. Take your OLL and show it to the first cop, and we'll see how you feel about it being in a grey area.

I have a friend in the SCSD and he said my BB looks fine and falls with in the spirit of the law so he has no problem with it.

cal3gunner
09-23-2008, 4:33 PM
The monsterman is funky and ugly enough that when anyone sees it, its easy to recognize something is different that on a regular AR. Its easy to explain that it is not classified as a pistol grip and as long as there are no other evil features, its just as legal as the Mini 14 or M1 which most people know are legal in CA. It may be awkward at first, but after some use I find it very practical. You can use standard mags without worry and it only takes a minute to put a pistol grip on it when out of state.

I had the bullet button before, it works if you are after looks and only have 10 round mags. It sucks when you go to a shooting range or a match and you can't use your buddy's 30 round mags because it would be a felony just to stick it in.

Prince 50...It served a purpose before all the other options but now I wouldn't touch it. If you want a pistol grip, use the B-15...best of both worlds. With my luck I would be out in the forests hunting/plinking and the allan screw would walk out and get lost. Yea you can locktight it but a lot of people don't. I recommend to anyone that has it, that they keep a few extra screws and an allan wrench with it that way if one accidentlly comes out and gets lost they can replace it asap.

U-15...I've handled one of these and it is very ergonomical. You can comfortably get your thumb around something while shooting and running with the rifle while dropping 30 round mags legally. As far as looks go, to each their own.

If you only have 10 round mags, and do not have access to legally using hi cap mags, get the B-15 and build a good looking rifle. You never really know who is around and watching, so its not even worth it that one time to put that 30 round mag in your B-15 gun to let loose an extra 20 rounds before reloading.

If you have pre-ban mags or shoot with people that do, get the monsterman and blast away. When you cross state lines, throw on a real grip and feel free until you come back.

cal3gunner
09-23-2008, 4:35 PM
btw.......the monsterman can be cut/modified to fit on other stocks besides the A2

AdamM
09-23-2008, 4:43 PM
B15

ivanimal
09-23-2008, 4:45 PM
I like the u-15 with my Beta mag.:43:

aplinker
09-23-2008, 6:49 PM
they all are great except the p50 has been all but replaced by the bb and b15. If you have hi caps the mmg and u15 own.

JeffM
09-23-2008, 6:58 PM
The monsterman is funky and ugly enough that when anyone sees it, its easy to recognize something is different that on a regular AR. Its easy to explain that it is not classified as a pistol grip and as long as there are no other evil features, its just as legal as the Mini 14 or M1 which most people know are legal in CA. It may be awkward at first, but after some use I find it very practical. You can use standard mags without worry and it only takes a minute to put a pistol grip on it when out of state.

+1.

redneckshootist
09-23-2008, 7:10 PM
Im not a big fan of fixed mag builds cause I want to be able to drop mags and use standard cap mags. so I use a MMG on all my builds.
the only builds that utilize a fixed mag are the pistol builds and those us BB.

sorensen440
09-23-2008, 7:13 PM
is it just me or has there been a sudden increase in OLL newbies lately ?

Hk996
09-23-2008, 7:35 PM
B15.... and I'm fairly new to OLL cause before the BB the stores had top loading AR's and AR's with the pistol grip cut off which I thought looked dumb. Also, turns out... the lowers are really easy to put together!

Now with the RADD lock... I have a USC and am working on a AR-10 build!

Gotta love this site!

DedEye
09-23-2008, 7:52 PM
is it just me or has there been a sudden increase in OLL newbies lately ?

Hopefully :43:!

edittman1
09-23-2008, 7:52 PM
Been there, done that. Would do it again in a heartbeat. If the cop wants to ruin his career by arresting me despite being provided with all the necessary and relevant PC explaining clearly and conclusively that any of the ARs thusly configured are legal, that's his problem. The rifles configured with the components you mentioned are a clear case of legal vs. legal. Just because an ignorant cop or DA doesn't know that and you end up going through a series of headaches and potentially paying lawyers a large chunk of cash to prove yourself right doesn't change that fact.

Ruin a career? Doubtful.

Look, I have read a LOT about the way which we have all interpreted the law which has been provided to us. But until the DOJ actually disemminates a letter which states OLL's with any of the compliance add on's are legal, I think that they fall in a grey area.

Now let's also be very clear, I own something that falls in this grey area.

I simply made this poll to have better insight as to a fairly educated populace's opinion on their personal interpretations of the law.

In fact, I have one of the less popular compliance add-on items and am likely to go with a Bullet Button next time on my 2nd lower (of which I have 4).

The one thing I do need to go refresh my memory on, is the confiscation of Blackwater's rifle in SoCal and their verdict on his trial or whatever it was.

technique
09-23-2008, 8:06 PM
there really is no gray area, It's all black and white. All are within the definition of the law, as the laws state.

sorensen440
09-23-2008, 8:07 PM
there really is no gray area, It's all black and white. All are within the definition of the law, as the laws state.

+1 the law is very specific
no gray area

edittman1
09-23-2008, 8:13 PM
I think you guys are living in fantasy land personally. But you're entitled to your opinion. But please make no mistake, I own, condone, and support rifles with these configurations. I think CA has the most ridiculous laws ever created for gun regulation and control.

I just think it would be a little foolish to be naive enough to believe that you are at zero risk while owning these rifles with their compliance add-on items. Just because everyone (me included) on this forum interprets one thing one way, that does not mean the DOJ or Attorney Generals of each county will have like minded views.

And the reason that it *could* ultimately fall in the hands of anothers interpretation, is why I believe there is a grey area.

It's kind of like Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: When is a human life created?

Everyone has an opinion.

But when it comes to these rifles, that opinion will eventually fall in the hands of a judge and the DOJ. $0.02

DedEye
09-23-2008, 8:16 PM
Ruin a career? Doubtful.

Look, I have read a LOT about the way which we have all interpreted the law which has been provided to us. But until the DOJ actually disemminates a letter which states OLL's with any of the compliance add on's are legal, I think that they fall in a grey area.

Now let's also be very clear, I own something that falls in this grey area.

I simply made this poll to have better insight as to a fairly educated populace's opinion on their personal interpretations of the law.

In fact, I have one of the less popular compliance add-on items and am likely to go with a Bullet Button next time on my 2nd lower (of which I have 4).

The one thing I do need to go refresh my memory on, is the confiscation of Blackwater's rifle in SoCal and their verdict on his trial or whatever it was.

You may think you asked what people thought was most legally sound, but that isn't the question people are answering.

As for BWO's rifles, all charges were dropped in exchange for the confiscation of two of his AKs. It was the most expedient manner of making the case go away for him with the fewest fees, but it does not imply that his rifles were illegally configured.

DedEye
09-23-2008, 8:22 PM
I think you guys are living in fantasy land personally. But you're entitled to your opinion. But please make no mistake, I own, condone, and support rifles with these configurations. I think CA has the most ridiculous laws ever created for gun regulation and control.

I just think it would be a little foolish to be naive enough to believe that you are at zero risk while owning these rifles with their compliance add-on items. Just because everyone (me included) on this forum interprets one thing one way, that does not mean the DOJ or Attorney Generals of each county will have like minded views.

And the reason that it *could* ultimately fall in the hands of anothers interpretation, is why I believe there is a grey area.

It's kind of like Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: When is a human life created?

Everyone has an opinion.

But when it comes to these rifles, that opinion will eventually fall in the hands of a judge and the DOJ. $0.02

I suppose this could be seen to be like the Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice debate, except that as far as the law is concerned for OLLs there is a very specific, codified definition of what is and what isn't legal. The law does not state explicitly when life is created.

You're running a risk with any semi-auto, centerfire rifle in this state, and it would be naive to think otherwise. Black rifles, ARs and AKs aren't the only rifles that run the risk of confiscation/arrest, and aren't the only potential AWs either. How many old Fudds put flash suppressors on their M1As while turning their noses up at ARs thinking they were in a legally sound position? I remember a few cases of people being told SU16s were "dodgy" legally speaking as well.

jacques
09-23-2008, 8:25 PM
Now I don't know how to answer this thread. :confused:

ColdSteel
09-23-2008, 8:30 PM
Well, all of those choices are legal but it all boils down to personal preference and rifle configuration. I run P50 on all my rifles because I do much of my shooting in Nevada.
I prefer not to be laughed at by my Nevada buddies when I have to use a bullet to drop the mag on my rifle.

If my rifles never left Ca. I'd have a bullet button. It's all personal preference.

sorensen440
09-23-2008, 8:32 PM
Well, all of those choices are legal but it all boils down to personal preference and rifle configuration. I run P50 on all my rifles because I do much of my shooting in Nevada.
I prefer not to be laughed at by my Nevada buddies when I have to use a bullet to drop the mag on my rifle.

If my rifles never left Ca. I'd have a bullet button. It's all personal preference.

I was doing the same till I got my b15 last week

aplinker
09-23-2008, 9:29 PM
It's kind of like Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: When is a human life created?


OK... this might be the silliest comparison ever.

Not just because of the choice, but because abortion is 100% legal, given you follow the current legal means. Which is just the opposite of the point you wanted to make, but follows more the reality of the OLL situation.

Lots of choices for ways to legally have your baby/fetus killed, lots of ways to legally build a (neutered) evil baby killing rifle.

Given what's transpired at DOJ and with the few OLL-related arrests, I have no cause to be worried about what the outcome of an arrest will be. The only issue is with ill-informed LE - which is a concern for any firearm ownership (or any other means of asserting one's rights).

edittman1
09-23-2008, 9:41 PM
OK... this might be the silliest comparison ever.

Not just because of the choice, but because abortion is 100% legal, given you follow the current legal means. Which is just the opposite of the point you wanted to make, but follows more the reality of the OLL situation.

Lots of choices for ways to legally have your baby/fetus killed, lots of ways to legally build a (neutered) evil baby killing rifle.

Given what's transpired at DOJ and with the few OLL-related arrests, I have no cause to be worried about what the outcome of an arrest will be. The only issue is with ill-informed LE - which is a concern for any firearm ownership (or any other means of asserting one's rights).

Excellent point. Abortion is legal. And whoever wrote that law made sure to prevent any misinterpretation of it. There is a clearly defined rule set which allows a person to act legally when aborting a pregnancy.

And I guess that somewhat helps validate my point. The OLL law is terribly written and open for a lot of interpretation. Good for us, since we can interpret this law to our benefit, sure! But for the person who gets an ill informed person enforcing their misinterpretation of the law, not good. :(

Anyway, looks like I should buy 3 bullet buttons in case they amend the current law and ban future sales of the bullet button! :X

aplinker
09-23-2008, 9:53 PM
Excellent point. Abortion is legal. And whoever wrote that law made sure to prevent any misinterpretation of it. There is a clearly defined rule set which allows a person to act legally when aborting a pregnancy.

And I guess that somewhat helps validate my point. The OLL law is terribly written and open for a lot of interpretation. Good for us, since we can interpret this law to our benefit, sure! But for the person who gets an ill informed person enforcing their misinterpretation of the law, not good. :(

Anyway, looks like I should buy 3 bullet buttons in case they amend the current law and ban future sales of the bullet button! :X

No offense, but this post makes it pretty clear you have a very poor understanding of how and why OLLs are legal, case law, as well as how legislation and regulations work.

You might want to spend some time researching why it's legal and actually reading the penal code, as well as the relevant court cases.

I might be coming down on you hard, but I get a little worked up when someone who isn't up on the legal logic writes a thread that essentially calls the BB, MMG, etc. "gray." This is precisely why many people become confused. If you don't understand the argument, that doesn't mean it's gray. Spend some more time reading the legal precedence and interpretations, as well as trying to see how DOJ "attempted" to close the doors, then gave up, and you'll have a better understanding.

nobs11
09-23-2008, 10:26 PM
MMG.

-The ergonomics are great. Anyone who says otherwise has probably not used one. I'm used to shooting "traditional" rifles like the Garand so MMG feels great. I used to think it looked "weird" but I don't notice that anymore.
-No attachable/detachable crap. Don't put any evil features and there is no way anyone can argue you have an AW. The law says:
"centerfire semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine and one of the following..." Once you take the "one of the following" part out of the equation, it is very easy to understand or explain.
-Can use prebans.
-Can drop mags all day without a tool.
-No weird looks at the range or traffic stops or having to worry if an uninformed LEO is shooting next to you and gonna bother you about the attachable/detachable BS.

I understand that there is no gray area as far as the BB goes, but people are still confused.

sorensen440
09-23-2008, 10:47 PM
MMG.

-The ergonomics are great. Anyone who says otherwise has probably not used one. I'm used to shooting "traditional" rifles like the Garand so MMG feels great. I used to think it looked "weird" but I don't notice that anymore.
-No attachable/detachable crap. Don't put any evil features and there is no way anyone can argue you have an AW. The law says:
"centerfire semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine and one of the following..." Once you take the "one of the following" part out of the equation, it is very easy to understand or explain.
-Can use prebans.
-Can drop mags all day without a tool.
-No weird looks at the range or traffic stops or having to worry if an uninformed LEO is shooting next to you and gonna bother you about the attachable/detachable BS.

I understand that there is no gray area as far as the BB goes, but people are still confused.

Im going to try the MMG pretty soon here
I dont have the cash to get another upper but I can build up one of my lowers and swap the flash suppressor for a brake and then I can see what all the hype is about
More and more im hearing people say they actually like the MMG better then the PG

cal3gunner
09-23-2008, 11:14 PM
I've used MMG on an OLL and a normal pistol grip on a registered lower in 3 gun competition. In the moment, it doesn't really matter, its what you have practiced with and what you are comfortable with. I probably do better with the MMG because I focus more on getting my finger in the right place on the trigger more than holding/controlling the rifle. I don't have to consciously think about it, but I know I use my weak arm/hand more when using the MMG which I think is a good thing.

edittman1
09-23-2008, 11:53 PM
No offense, but this post makes it pretty clear you have a very poor understanding of how and why OLLs are legal, case law, as well as how legislation and regulations work.

You might want to spend some time researching why it's legal and actually reading the penal code, as well as the relevant court cases.

I might be coming down on you hard, but I get a little worked up when someone who isn't up on the legal logic writes a thread that essentially calls the BB, MMG, etc. "gray." This is precisely why many people become confused. If you don't understand the argument, that doesn't mean it's gray. Spend some more time reading the legal precedence and interpretations, as well as trying to see how DOJ "attempted" to close the doors, then gave up, and you'll have a better understanding.

No offense taken at all. This is the America. I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to your opinion. :chris:

Question:

Do you, or do you not agree that the laws which were intended to ban assault rifles were poorly written, thus allowing for interpretations of the law which have brought us to present with compliance add-ons?

DedEye
09-24-2008, 12:14 AM
No offense taken at all. This is the America. I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to your opinion. :chris:

Question:

Do you, or do you not agree that the laws which were intended to ban assault rifles were poorly written, thus allowing for interpretations of the law which have brought us to present with compliance add-ons?

Two part answer to your two-part question:

Yes, I agree the laws were poorly written.

No, I do not think that the poor wording of the legislation allows for "interpretation." While poorly worded, strict and absolute compliance with the law is what results in rifles that are equipped with bullet buttons or Monsterman grips. There is no "interpretation" involved.

motorhead
09-24-2008, 8:29 AM
i go featureless as i have preban ak 30's.

Kishfisser
09-24-2008, 8:49 AM
I have a MMG featureless build, BB, and P50. The P50 goes out of state with me on occasion, the BB is here in CA along with the MM for my old pre-ban Magazines.
As far as interpertation, It is the lack of DOJ comm. and FUD which leave space of LE to make interpertations right or wrong, then the need to hash it out in court comes along. Maybe this is in hope that the threat of financial losses to the owners of the said guns are what DOJ are hoping to be the deterrent, whether or not there is a conviction.

edittman1
09-24-2008, 9:46 AM
So maybe lets start putting some FIRM pressure on the DOJ to really acknowledge the legitimacy of the Bullet Button, Prince50, MMG, and U15?

technique
09-24-2008, 12:00 PM
So maybe lets start putting some FIRM pressure on the DOJ to really acknowledge the legitimacy of the Bullet Button, Prince50, MMG, and U15?

Already been done.

sorensen440
09-24-2008, 12:03 PM
So maybe lets start putting some FIRM pressure on the DOJ to really acknowledge the legitimacy of the Bullet Button, Prince50, MMG, and U15?

Have they acknowledged the legitimacy of the ruger ranch rifle?
do you think it falls in the same gray area?
why or why not ?

edittman1
09-24-2008, 12:34 PM
Already been done.

Can you provide me with some info? Any progress or actual acknowledgments?

Who cares, a Ruger ranch rifle is boring. :D

sorensen440
09-24-2008, 12:36 PM
Can you provide me with some info? Any progress or actual acknowledgments?

Who cares, a Ruger ranch rifle is boring. :D

No offense but you have been a member here way too long to have the ar newb skitishness vibe Im getting off of ya

technique
09-24-2008, 1:05 PM
Just leave it to the right people. Contribute to the CGF if you want to help. People have been on it from day one. If your uncomfortable about it, or feel its a gray area, then maybe a Ruger ranch rifle is more your speed.

There are plenty of resources here on this site that will show you the legalities of OLL's. And there are people here who have had those "encounters" with LE, I am one of them.

I didn't even bother to counter the LEO's opinion off my OLL. I told him he was wrong, didn't know what he was talking about, and to take it or "F" off.

I'm still here and so are my guns!

aplinker
09-24-2008, 1:43 PM
So maybe lets start putting some FIRM pressure on the DOJ to really acknowledge the legitimacy of the Bullet Button, Prince50, MMG, and U15?

Is it 2006?

MonsterMan submitted a beautiful package and argument for why his grip is legal. No dice.

DOJ has been infiltrated by people controlled or allied with the Brady campaign. They don't want to do anything that will give gun enthusiasts reason to buy more firearms. They have abandoned their obligation to provide proper info to citizens and DAs.

If this weren't legal, do you think dozens of shops across the state would sell them, equipped with BB and MMG, right on their shelves? They meet with DOJ and ATF frequently for audits who see their stock. Wouldn't they be arrested if it were illegal?

I just don't get what you're trying to do with this thread...

Steyr_223
09-24-2008, 1:58 PM
I have a Prince50, a MonsterMan Grip and aU-15 Buttstock.

I don't have a Bullet Button, yet..

:)

nobs11
09-24-2008, 2:04 PM
So maybe lets start putting some FIRM pressure on the DOJ to really acknowledge the legitimacy of the Bullet Button, Prince50, MMG, and U15?

You seem to think that the DOJ would fairly interpret the law and tell citizens what is and is not legal. This has been tried before. The reality is that the DOJ is controlled by entities who like to play politics, instead of strictly interpreting the law. The DOJ is not and should not be in the business of interpreting what the intent of the law is. That is why written laws are created in the first place. That is the job of your elected representatives. So some LE does not pull a Minority Report on citizens and send you to jail for violating the intent of the law.

If you have been following gun laws in this state, the intent of the people with influence on the DOJ is to take away AR, AK and "evil looking" rifles away from citizens.

OLL ownership and awareness is an effort by citizens to say to the DOJ "Now wait a minute guys, your job is not to judge intent, but to follow the letter of the law. We didn't vote you bureaucrats into office. You are not our representatives. You are civil servants whose job is to follow the strict letter of the law."

I think the OP seems to think that the DOJ is an agency that abides by the rules and their word is the law since they should not have any motive to lie to people. I used to feel that way before the 2000 ban as well. It took me a while to realize that in a place like the US, government agents are as influenced by politicians and politics as anywhere else in the world. It is not a conspiracy theory. It is the ground truth.

technique
09-24-2008, 2:06 PM
Is it 2006?

MonsterMan submitted a beautiful package and argument for why his grip is legal. No dice.

DOJ has been infiltrated by people controlled or allied with the Brady campaign. They don't want to do anything that will give gun enthusiasts reason to buy more firearms. They have abandoned their obligation to provide proper info to citizens and DAs.

If this weren't legal, do you think dozens of shops across the state would sell them, equipped with BB and MMG, right on their shelves? They meet with DOJ and ATF frequently for audits who see their stock. Wouldn't they be arrested if it were illegal?

I just don't get what you're trying to do with this thread...



This is all Correct!!! The ATF has a voluntary program for FFL's. You sign up, they audit you on a frequent basis, tell you what you are doing wrong if you are doing it wrong, penalty free. Nothing has ever come up with those either.

And shops selling these goods are not being shut down for doing so. That was also a good point. Most of the shops who do not sell OLL's or run you out the door at the mention of them, try to say...."thats why so and so got shut down and we don't". Serious FUD!

edittman1
09-24-2008, 4:01 PM
You know, all you guys had to do was post this (at least for the Bullet Button and Prince50). My buddy showed it to me. :)

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf

Look for 5469.

rudedude916
09-24-2008, 6:40 PM
What is the difference between a bullet button and a prince50?

sorensen440
09-24-2008, 6:43 PM
What is the difference between a bullet button and a prince50?

Bullet button is a device that lets you remove the magazine through the use of a tool (usually a bullet tip)

and the Prince 50 uses a allen screw to prevent the use of the mag release (You cannot legally remove the magazine with the prince 50 in california)
Very handy if you travel out of state often





You should also check the b15
Its the best of both worlds

rudedude916
09-24-2008, 6:46 PM
Thanks:punk:

DedEye
09-24-2008, 7:22 PM
You know, all you guys had to do was post this (at least for the Bullet Button and Prince50). My buddy showed it to me. :)

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf

Look for 5469.

You mean the definition of "detachable magazine" that is listed in the flow chart? Or perhaps the definition of pistol grip in the same code?

Did you think we were pulling the "it's legal" comments out of our collective asses?

aplinker
09-24-2008, 11:36 PM
You know, all you guys had to do was post this (at least for the Bullet Button and Prince50). My buddy showed it to me. :)

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf

Look for 5469.

So I take you it you never read the Flowchart, Newbie Guide, Gene Hoffman's original argument/description of the BB, the numerous threads where this has been hashed out, etc?

Seriously, it's pretty frustrating when people who have been here a while ignore every resource of information and then post threads where they call what we're doing "gray."

Like I said, you need to spend some time reading.

stag6.8
09-25-2008, 12:57 AM
u-15 here....:hurray:

Paratus et Vigilans
09-25-2008, 8:00 AM
A few points:

1. There is no legal gray area about the BB. It works exactly the way the statutes and regs say it needs to work in order for the firearm on which it is installed not to be defined as an AW. Same with the P50, MMG and U-15.

2. There are more than a few LEOs and DAs who are ignorant of the law on MANY points, not just AW laws. That does not make the law gray, it makes them ignorant. However, being right does not equal being risk free. Nothing in life is risk free.

3. The AW laws are not "badly written." They are written like that on purpose (not always crystal clear) because the crystal clear version couldn't get enough votes to pass. It's called wiggle room, and lets each side claim victory.

4. This is a silly thread.

aplinker
09-25-2008, 6:55 PM
This is an awesome post

A few points:

1. There is no legal gray area about the BB. It works exactly the way the statutes and regs say it needs to work in order for the firearm on which it is installed not to be defined as an AW. Same with the P50, MMG and U-15.

2. There are more than a few LEOs and DAs who are ignorant of the law on MANY points, not just AW laws. That does not make the law gray, it makes them ignorant. However, being right does not equal being risk free. Nothing in life is risk free.

3. The AW laws are not "badly written." They are written like that on purpose (not always crystal clear) because the crystal clear version couldn't get enough votes to pass. It's called wiggle room, and lets each side claim victory.

4. This is a silly thread.

DedEye
09-25-2008, 10:48 PM
This is an awesome post

:iagree: Big +1.

emc002
09-26-2008, 8:07 AM
I shoot a BB, B15 and a MMG in public where SOs, DAs, CHP and local PD shoot. The wost comment I've received is "Can you help me build one of those."
Of course, I live in the boonies...

E Pluribus Unum
09-26-2008, 11:32 AM
This surprises me that the bullet button did so well.

We all must be a bunch of range cattle or something. I love the feel of a standard grip but in a SHTF scenario, give me my detachable 30 round magazine. A fixed 10 rounder will get you killed.

sorensen440
09-26-2008, 11:35 AM
This surprises me that the bullet button did so well.

We all must be a bunch of range cattle or something. I love the feel of a standard grip but in a SHTF scenario, give me my detachable 30 round magazine. A fixed 10 rounder will get you killed.

I suspect most people in a shtf scenario would remove here BB's and P50's

Toolbox X
09-26-2008, 12:39 PM
MMG.

-The ergonomics are great. Anyone who says otherwise has probably not used one. I'm used to shooting "traditional" rifles like the Garand so MMG feels great.
I understand that there is no gray area as far as the BB goes, but people are still confused.

You should try the U-15. I modeled the grip after the grip of the M1 Garand.

mrjones98
09-26-2008, 1:12 PM
You should try the U-15. I modeled the grip after the grip of the M1 Garand.

While I've seen quite a few MMG's/BB's/P50's, I have yet to see someone else with a U-15 (besides me, that is). I think it has great ergonomics and works very well. Though I do agree that they look a little funny - but I am also a firm believer in function over form.

javalos
09-26-2008, 1:20 PM
I would probably have a BB on mine, I don't mind the MMG, but the U15 I do mind because to me it looks so frigging ugly. I won't knock anyone who wants to have it on their OLL. However even if I do have a BB on mine (call me paranoid), but at a public range I would top load and never drop the magazine (except in the sticks) just because there are too many anal retentive people around.

andrewj
09-26-2008, 2:20 PM
I get nothing but mixed signals when researching the mag lock kits. It really pisses me off how there are no 'set in stone' laws regarding them. I understand that the Bullet Button does not require top loading and the Prince 50 does. Is this true? If so, why?

Toolbox X
09-26-2008, 2:21 PM
I designed the U-15 for CA shooters who do not want to sacrifice the use of standard capacity mags and quick mag changes. I do a lot of non-range shooting and shooting while moving, so that was important to me. But I agree, the U-15 is far from pretty.

For tacticool rifles I designed the B-15. Just like any bullet button, it is great for bench shooters or people who don't shoot much, but like to show off their cool looking rifle to their friends who come over.

I have 8 or 9 AR's, and use both of my devices on them, as well as a MMG. Each devices has its pros and cons, and works best for a specific purpose.

-Grant

DedEye
09-26-2008, 2:31 PM
I get nothing but mixed signals when researching the mag lock kits. It really pisses me off how there are no 'set in stone' laws regarding them. I understand that the Bullet Button does not require top loading and the Prince 50 does. Is this true? If so, why?

:banghead::banghead:

The law IS set in stone.

Read the flow chart. Pay particular attention to the definition of a detachable magazine (CCR 5469). Due to that definition, a bullet button can have the magazine removed without rendering the rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine.

andrewj
09-26-2008, 3:27 PM
:banghead::banghead:

The law IS set in stone.

Read the flow chart. Pay particular attention to the definition of a detachable magazine (CCR 5469). Due to that definition, a bullet button can have the magazine removed without rendering the rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine.

and the Prince 50?

Hopi
09-26-2008, 3:31 PM
and the Prince 50?

The P50 serves a dual-use purpose.
1. You can have it locked down and create a legal scenario where you have a 'fixed-magazine", whereby only a 10 round or less magazine is utilized, and 'evil features' are permitted.

2. You can unlock it and the magazine catch functions as normal. In this case, you can feel free to use 'high-capacity' 'detachable' magazines, remembering of course that evil features are now prohibited.

andrewj
09-26-2008, 3:39 PM
OK, I'll put it this way. Im shooting at a range, desert, wherever. Im using the Prince 50 with a ten rd mag locked in place. I shoot the 10 rds. Can I unlock the mag, drop it, replace it with a new 10 rd mag, lock it, and go on my merry way or am I now a felon?

From what I have heard, this is the legal with the Bullet Button, but I here otherwise with the P50.

Hopi
09-26-2008, 3:41 PM
OK, I'll put it this way. Im shooting at a range, desert, wherever. Im using the Prince 50 with a ten rd mag locked in place. I shoot the 10 rds. Can I unlock the mag, drop it, replace it with a new 10 rd mag, lock it, and go on my merry way or am I now a felon?

From what I have heard, this is the legal with the Bullet Button, but I here otherwise with the P50.

No. Do not do this if your rifle is configured with any other 'evil features (i.e. pistol grip).

No offense, but study the AW flowchart and memorize the ins and outs.....
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

andrewj
09-26-2008, 3:54 PM
No. Do not do this if your rifle is configured with any other 'evil features (i.e. pistol grip).

No offense, but study the AW flowchart and memorize the ins and outs.....
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Yeah yeah yeah, I have read that chart hundreds of times. I am only curious because I hear otherwise from people, who in my opinion, should know the correct staus of their legality. In a nutshell, they have told me the BB and the P50 are ok for the scenario I have written above. And now, even more recently, I heard that the BB is ok for my scenario above but the P50 is not. And as of now, I do not know what to belive or who to believe. Should I swith my P50 assemblies to bullet buttons? Should I buy back my Fab 10's? Or should I just throw my AR's in the attic until I move out of CA?

sorensen440
09-26-2008, 4:01 PM
Yeah yeah yeah, I have read that chart hundreds of times. I am only curious because I hear otherwise from people, who in my opinion, should know the correct staus of their legality. In a nutshell, they have told me the BB and the P50 are ok for the scenario I have written above. And now, even more recently, I heard that the BB is ok for my scenario above but the P50 is not. And as of now, I do not know what to belive or who to believe. Should I swith my P50 assemblies to bullet buttons? Should I buy back my Fab 10's? Or should I just throw my AR's in the attic until I move out of CA?

Your friends dont know what there talking about

Read the flowchart again and if you still dont get it read it again

DedEye
09-26-2008, 4:21 PM
Your friends dont know what there talking about

Read the flowchart again and if you still dont get it read it again

Listen to the man.

You cannot unscrew your Prince50 mag lock on a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle in Califorina. Doing so creates an unregistered AW as the mag catch now allows for the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. This DOES NOT HAPPEN when you drop the magazine on a bullet button kit.

Until you absolutely know the law and what's legal, perhaps the ARs should be left in the attic (WITH the Prince50s engaged and a 10 round mag locked in place).

andrewj
09-26-2008, 4:34 PM
Your friends dont know what there talking about

Read the flowchart again and if you still dont get it read it again

I wasnt speaking to my friends, I got this info from some local dealers, thats why said that I thought they should what theyre talking about. Apparently they dont know their stuff. I would never ask my friends about these laws, that would be the only thing worse than interpreting the laws myself.

andrewj
09-26-2008, 4:37 PM
Listen to the man.

You cannot unscrew your Prince50 mag lock on a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle in Califorina. Doing so creates an unregistered AW as the mag catch now allows for the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. This DOES NOT HAPPEN when you drop the magazine on a bullet button kit.

Until you absolutely know the law and what's legal, perhaps the ARs should be left in the attic (WITH the Prince50s engaged and a 10 round mag locked in place).

and finally someone answers my question. Thanks

Hopi
09-26-2008, 5:17 PM
and finally someone answers my question. Thanks

I think you might need to give me all your off-list rifles until you understand ownership. That question has been answered 100's of times on Calguns.net and again at least 2x in this thread. The answer is in the AW flowchart that is hotlinked in my answer to the same question just 3-4 posts ago.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1562868&postcount=79

DedEye
09-26-2008, 5:23 PM
Take my class and I will answer all your OLL questions :).

andrewj
09-26-2008, 5:31 PM
I think you might need to give me all your off-list rifles until you understand ownership. That question has been answered 100's of times on Calguns.net and again at least 2x in this thread. The answer is in the AW flowchart that is hotlinked in my answer to the same question just 3-4 posts ago.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1562868&postcount=79

Relax! Thats why I came to you guys; for an easy answer. Sorry for not reading all 9 pages of this thread. Just understand my frustration in my situation. If you'd like me to leave this thread for good, no prob. Makes it easy on all of us.

Hopi
09-26-2008, 5:45 PM
Relax! Thats why I came to you guys; for an easy answer. Sorry for not reading all 9 pages of this thread. Just understand my frustration in my situation. If you'd like me to leave this thread for good, no prob. Makes it easy on all of us.

Don't leave anything. Read more and have fun. BTW, the AW flowchart is the result of Calguns community frustrations with these matters.....

Toolbox X
09-26-2008, 10:37 PM
I wasnt speaking to my friends, I got this info from some local dealers....

That is your problem right there. The following is a list of the Top 3 WORST people you can ask for legal advice about guns.

#1. Police Officers
Cops know how to write speeding tickets. The have to shoot a gun every now and then, but they rarely know more than how to load a gun and shoot it. They are typically the worst informed and least knowledgeable people you can talk to about gun laws. They are #1 because they are clueless about gun laws, yet they are the people charged with determining on the spot what is legal and what is a felony they have to arrest you for.

#2. Gun Store Owners and Employees
These guys are so close to being #1 they can taste it. They rarely have ANY idea what they are talking about when it comes to gun laws. And to make matters worse, they talk with an arrogance and confidence that many people mistake for wisdom and knowledge. NEVER, and I mean NEVER, trust a gun store owner or employee when they tell you what is legal and what is not.

#3. The DOJ
No one has ever gotten a straight answer out of the people at the DOJ. There is a HUGE conflict of interest within the DOJ because they are supposed to be IMPARTIAL, meaning they have no opinion or agenda, but at the same time they are the right hand of the anti-gun politicians in California. So the DOJ constantly refuses to acknowledge the legality of guns and devices that have been PROVEN legal, even in court. But that is only if you talk to someone near the top of the DOJ Firearms Division. The people on the helpline know nothing, or worse, what they tell you is completely wrong.

If you want to know what is legal and what isn't, read the flowchart and read Calguns. You will not find people more knowledgeable about firearm law anywhere else.

-Grant

stag6.8
09-26-2008, 11:48 PM
While I've seen quite a few MMG's/BB's/P50's, I have yet to see someone else with a U-15 (besides me, that is). I think it has great ergonomics and works very well. Though I do agree that they look a little funny - but I am also a firm believer in function over form.

I have two rifles both with u-15s stocks....I think they`re great....