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double0b
09-22-2008, 12:40 PM
Can anyone enlighten me on the legality of opening the magwell of my Bushmaster Carbon 15 CA rifle, assuming that a bullet button or similar mag locking device is installed?

Yes, I've used the search button, and while I've found a few threads mentioning doing so, none have mentioned legal ramifications. I dont care to get into confrontations with range staff or LEO.

Thanks for your input!

stphnman20
09-22-2008, 12:42 PM
I'm pretty sure that BM is banned by name..

bwiese
09-22-2008, 12:44 PM
If you cut a closed-magwell Bushmaster C15 receiver into 'normal format' and then added appropriate components to render rifle into a legal configuration (i.e., bullet button+10rd mag or going 'featureless' to an A2 stock with MonsterMan grip or U15 stock and ensuring no flash hider present) no laws would be violated and the rifle would not be a CA-defined AW.

However I am not sure such butchery is worth it - have no idea if this could lead to lower receiver degradation etc.

Conventional open-magwell Bushmaster Carbon 15 receivers are fairly low cost, are indeed 'off-list' and are legal to acquire, possess and configure into legal rifle configurations so perhaps you're best off just substituting in one of those.

I'm pretty sure that BM is banned by name...

Bzzzt, wrong. There is no "Bushmaster (all)" entry in the Kasler list in 11 CCR 5499. The only banned Bushmaster entity is the Bushmaster XM15 (which encompasses all known metal regular Bushmaster receivers). The Bushmaster Carbon15 receiver is truly off-list and probably thousands have been sold in California over the last 2.5+ years.

Vinz
09-22-2008, 1:10 PM
You might be better off selling what you have and building another from scratch.

Right now neutered Carbon 15's are holding value but that might not last too long as the word of OLL's is spreading. You will see prices dropping soon.

Check with member "dedeye" apparently its an easy modification if you choose to. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1535342#post1535342

Vinz

stphnman20
09-22-2008, 1:15 PM
Bzzzt, wrong. There is no "Bushmaster (all)" entry in the Kasler list in 11 CCR 5499. The only banned Bushmaster entity is the Bushmaster XM15 (which encompasses all known metal regular Bushmaster receivers). The Bushmaster Carbon15 receiver is truly off-list and probably thousands have been sold in California over the last 2.5+ years.
Sorry :(

Ding126
09-22-2008, 1:29 PM
I thought Bushmasters were banned by model number prefix XM? I also thought all bushmasters start with the prefix XM?

Can someone add to this.......or confirm

bohoki
09-22-2008, 1:34 PM
I thought Bushmasters were banned by model number prefix XM? I also thought all bushmasters start with the prefix XM?

Can someone add to this.......or confirm


i think the m-17 is not marked xm-17

but being that it has an integral pistol grip a bullet button is a prerequesite

bwiese
09-22-2008, 6:56 PM
I thought Bushmasters were banned by model number prefix XM?
I also thought all bushmasters start with the prefix XM?
Can someone add to this.......or confirm

All Bushmaster *metal* receivers are marked with XM-15 model; "Bushmaster XM-15" is a listed (banned) entity in the Kasler list, so don't have one unless it was registered as an assault weapon during the SB23/Kasler reg period.

The Bushmaster carbon fiber receivers, by contrast, are marked with "Carbon 15" as the model: Bushmaster Carbon15s are not on any banned list and are 'off-list' and legal to acquire, possess and configure into rifles not described by SB23 (12276.1PC).

You should NOT acquire/possess (unless reg'd as an AW in 2000) the prior variant marked "Proffesional Ordnance Carbon 15", as such firearms are banned on the Kasler list.

The weird Bushmaster M17S bullpup rifle (not sure if it's still in production) is not banned by name, but by feature and would need either a Bullet Button style mag lock device or some kinda filler behind the grip so as to make it a non-pistol-gripped rifle.

Of special note: the "Bushmaster Assault Rifle" and "Bushmaster Pistol" listed in the original Roberti-Roos AWCA '89 ban list refer to the "Bushmaster ARM", a non-AR by Mack Gwinn:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/armpistol/variants.html
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/orig/bmasterassault.htm


.... these Bushmasters are *models* and existed before "Bushmaster" as a *company* or *make* even existed: remember, in earlier to maybe mid-1990s, what became Bushmaster was still known then as "QPI" (Quality Parts Incorporated).

Mail Clerk
09-22-2008, 7:08 PM
Can anyone enlighten me on the legality of opening the magwell of my Bushmaster Carbon 15 CA rifle, assuming that a bullet button or similar mag locking device is installed?

Yes, I've used the search button, and while I've found a few threads mentioning doing so, none have mentioned legal ramifications. I dont care to get into confrontations with range staff or LEO.

Thanks for your input!


double0b,

The cost of machineing out that area and having it re-heat treated isn't worth the cost!!! Your much better buying another lower and having the BB installed.

Since I just stumbled into getting this new information I decided right away to buy another AR with the BB installed! I had thought California stopped allowing them in our state except for the ugly Bushmaster without the magazine well or having that terrible wodden grip installed.

The range I go to in the desert doesn't bother me when I shoot any of my AR's. All they care of is that I shoot safely!!!

savage1
09-22-2008, 7:39 PM
I cut mine out a while ago. I figured I already had a few other AR's so what the hell. I was not going to shoot it otherwise. Cut it out and filed it clean. Works flawless. You could not tell it was originally sealed unless you knew what you were looking at. Never had a problem with it since I opened the magwell. Just get some jewlers files and go slow after you get the hole close to size.

Vinz
09-22-2008, 8:58 PM
I assumed double0b had a plastic version. They make a AL version?



vinz

bwiese
09-22-2008, 9:32 PM
I assumed double0b had a plastic version. They make a AL version?

vinz

Yes, most Bushmaster receivers are metal - but these metal ones are not off-list, so the only folks in CA that legitimately have them are reg'd AW owners.

Vinz
09-22-2008, 9:41 PM
Thanks Bill, but I meant the no mag well version.

I didn't know they made a metal no magwell version.



Vinz

bwiese
09-22-2008, 10:14 PM
Thanks Bill, but I meant the no mag well version. 000

I didn't know they made a metal no magwell version.


Not sure how you inferred that, as they don't. The only closed magwell version they make is the Carbon 15 (off-list).
The metal XM15s are open magwell (listed/banned AWs).

[SoCal's Evan's Gunsmithing used a somewhat questionable DOJ approval letter from former agent Iggy Chinn to produce so-called "California-legal" Bushmaster (metal) XM15s with welded-up magwells. That created a bunch of drama at the DOJ at end of 2006 since there's no authority to de-list a listed gun regardless of feature changes.]

double0b
09-22-2008, 10:50 PM
Thanks for all of the input guys. For the added cost of buying an open well receiver, I think that I'll pull out the dremel this weekend and give it a shot. If it fails, I buy a new receiver. Nothing to loose but the warranty. Certainly cheaper than building another rifle right now (at least the way I want to).

Chris
San Diego, CA

technique
09-22-2008, 10:51 PM
I have seen a certain member here convert the Fab10s

Young Version
09-23-2008, 7:14 AM
Thanks for all of the input guys. For the added cost of buying an open well receiver, I think that I'll pull out the dremel this weekend and give it a shot. If it fails, I buy a new receiver. Nothing to loose but the warranty. Certainly cheaper than building another rifle right now (at least the way I want to).

Chris
San Diego, CA

My brother took the dremel to his and it came out great. It's a pretty simple procedure.

Sam .223
09-23-2008, 3:28 PM
i thought about doing this to my rifle, i haven't heard of anything that says you can't open the mag well as long as you keep the rifle compliant with CA laws, in my case a BB or Prince 50 would need to be used. the one thing i'm not sure about is if you can just cut away the square area or do you need to follow the little flat outline of a mag that is stamped on the closed off portion of the reciever. anyone have any pics of a modified carbon 15 where they opened up the mag well?

double0b
09-23-2008, 4:19 PM
I did the modification today. No pictures yet, but it was a simple procedure. I finished the magwell with hand files and fine sand paper. One thing that I made sure to do was to round all corners as to not create any stress risers that might contribute to failure of the receiver.

The rivet hole is still a concern of mine, but I may fill it with some JB Weld.

As Sam.223 mentioned, I found that for a magazine to fit properly, I had to follow the molded mag outline on the bottom of the sealed well.

** I know that if an owner moves out of CA with one of these rifles, Bushmaster will open the magwell for traditional operation. If they are willing to do so, I can only presume that it will be structurally sound.

Vinz
09-23-2008, 5:01 PM
I did the modification today. No pictures yet, but it was a simple procedure. I finished the magwell with hand files and fine sand paper. One thing that I made sure to do was to round all corners as to not create any stress risers that might contribute to failure of the receiver.

The rivet hole is still a concern of mine, but I may fill it with some JB Weld.

As Sam.223 mentioned, I found that for a magazine to fit properly, I had to follow the molded mag outline on the bottom of the sealed well.

** I know that if an owner moves out of CA with one of these rifles, Bushmaster will open the magwell for traditional operation. If they are willing to do so, I can only presume that it will be structurally sound.

double0b,
So you do have a plastic Carbon 15?


vinz

pc_city
09-23-2008, 5:33 PM
Opening up the magwell of a bushmaster Carbon15 lower will expose the carbon fibers in the composite. Exposing the carbon fibers will lead to galvanic corrosion in the lower and any metallic objects in contact with the carbon fibers. This contact will eventually result in total failure of the structure of the lower (you ruined it bubba). You will regret it. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon -- and for the rest of your life.

You might delay the effects of the galvanic corrosion by coating the cut surfaces with epoxy.;)

double0b
09-23-2008, 5:54 PM
I guess that when I begin to regret it, it will be time to buy a new rifle. :) Again though, if Bushmaster is willing to machine out the magwells on receivers taken out of state, good enough for me.

JWC6
09-25-2008, 3:30 PM
Not sure how you inferred that, as they don't. The only closed magwell version they make is the Carbon 15 (off-list).
The metal XM15s are open magwell (listed/banned AWs).

[SoCal's Evan's Gunsmithing used a somewhat questionable DOJ approval letter from former agent Iggy Chinn to produce so-called "California-legal" Bushmaster (metal) XM15s with welded-up magwells. That created a bunch of drama at the DOJ at end of 2006 since there's no authority to de-list a listed gun regardless of feature changes.]

I think they are still selling the welded "listed" receivers such as the XM15 as well as colts. Apparently they also sell the S&W off list receivers as welded receivers. Quite confusing IMHO...