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HonorThe2nd
09-18-2008, 6:19 PM
I am about to finish building my 1st lower and I am getting ready to purchase a complete upper. Will someone please share with me your comments, advantages and dis-advantages of carbine and mid-length uppers. Any information would be much appreciated. Thank You!!

joe_sun
09-18-2008, 6:52 PM
Save yourself a lot of hassle and just get a BCM middy with a BCM or LMT M16 BCG and call it a day.

If you want to do the research go to www,m4carbine.net and start reading. What it comes down to is the middy is better in every way to the carbine.

CHS
09-18-2008, 7:07 PM
There are no disadvantages to midlength uppers, but plenty for carbine.

If you want a short barrel, but the utmost reliability, stick to midlength.

mikecro1
09-18-2008, 7:08 PM
Save yourself a lot of hassle and just get a BCM middy with a BCM or LMT M16 BCG and call it a day.

If you want to do the research go to www,m4carbine.net and start reading. What it comes down to is the middy is better in every way to the carbine.

....close...but no cigar, i'll pit my carbine PWS-Gas piston upper against your middy BCM or LMT combo for reliability and performance any day....3400+
rounds...no hiccup yet...nuff said...;):43:

bombadillo
09-18-2008, 7:09 PM
true, but whats the price point??

bombadillo
09-18-2008, 7:16 PM
BTW, I'm in the dark to a lot of it, but have done countless hours of homework. I think I'm going del-ton by the advice off of many on ar15.com. They have nothing bad to say for their uppers and all of them seem to shoot. I've seen a bunch of problems with stag, reliability issues, fit and finish issues, and just issues. Fitment of rails with the upper receiver rail haven't been very good. Rock River Arms seems to be quite the seller with the wylde barrels, and other nice features and adjustability with what you want for the price point. I almost bought one of theirs. CMMG and LMT are top notch stuff with the top being the LMT by all means. CMMG are great and all but the LMT stuff is just top shelf. then you step up to noveske or custom barrels. Plan on spending for a railed handguard upper with bolt and carrier, between 900-1500 on a decent one and you can get them for over 2k if you so desire. I went with del-ton for the bang for the buck. Chrome lined, 16" heavy barrel with 1:7 twist, yhm lightweight free-floating railed handguards, A2 front sight, DPMS lower parts kit and a Rock River Arms 2 stage trigger, ergo grip pistol grip, Badger tac latch on the charging handle, and a standard mil spec buttstock or for 60 bucks get the Magpul CTR which is sweet. I'm still debating that last one. The whole rifle shipped to my door for under 800 smackeroos. Don't believe me, build it yourself at www.del-ton.com

Dang I should get a job for them. But anyway, all the guys at ar15 say that their del-ton rifle gets the job done and in tighter groups than a lot of bushmasters and other uppers that cost twice as much. I can spend 550 on an upper with a whole lot of goodies on it or I don't have to and still have all the goodies..............Hmmmmmmmmmm.................. .what should I do.

And if you get it and hate it, you can sell it to me or someone who will want it for not much less than you paid for it and get a noveske if you so desire.

Bimmer2
09-18-2008, 7:21 PM
+1 Mid-length. What the others said.

I'm not trolling, but arf.com is for mall ninjas, and Del-ton is considered "low end." Take a look at m4carbine.net.

Ben

ChrisXD45T
09-18-2008, 7:25 PM
You're in Salinas?
Come by the Laguna Seca Rifle Range this weekend and we can talk uppers. Figure out what you need in an upper and go from there.
If it's long range accuracy - rifle.
Plinking at the range - carbine
You want something reliable that will get you through a carbine course - Go with a well regarded brand like Colt, LMT, Noveske, Saber, or BCM.
If we're not busy, and I have the time, I'll let you try my Armalite super sale special or maybe my BCM middy if it gets here on schedule.
I'll be the handsome guy in the booth yelling at people over the P.A. system. :p

bombadillo
09-18-2008, 7:31 PM
Thats what I'm saying about del-ton though. Although it is considered low end, they're all mil-spec, headspaced and checked before sending out. They had a whole lot of positive to say about delton shooting better than their rifles that cost 2-3x what they paid. I'm only telling him this for his first rifle build, go for something like this and upgrade the crap out of it later. You're really just paying for the upper anyway, so put something like a del-ton upper and call it a day. I'd stay away from model1sales, blackthorne products

nobs11
09-18-2008, 7:42 PM
They had a whole lot of positive to say about delton shooting better than their rifles that cost 2-3x what they paid.

Not trying to be a jerk, but I have handled and shot Delton uppers. I haven't seen any that shoot like this or have the fit and finish of the higher end uppers (shot @ 100yd with a Larue 16" stealth upper, Prvi ammo, hot barrel, top two are sight in shots, 10x scope). To the OP, how much are you planning to spend? Get yourself a mid-length no matter what you choose.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f83/neilsurplus/laruegroup.jpg

ChrisXD45T
09-18-2008, 7:42 PM
Thats what I'm saying about del-ton though. Although it is considered low end, they're all mil-spec, headspaced and checked before sending out. They had a whole lot of positive to say about delton shooting better than their rifles that cost 2-3x what they paid. I'm only telling him this for his first rifle build, go for something like this and upgrade the crap out of it later. You're really just paying for the upper anyway, so put something like a del-ton upper and call it a day. I'd stay away from model1sales, blackthorne products
Don't throw around the term "mil-spec." No commercial rifle is truly "mil-spec."
- Mil-spec dimensions maybe, but not materials or QC.
The important/expensive things you're paying for in an upper are the barrel and the BCG. You get what you pay for here. I'm not trying to say that you made a bad decision with using Del-Ton in your build; it may very well be perfect for your needs. Not everyone needs an expensive rifle; for most people, I agree with you that it is over-kill. But this person hasn't said what they plan to do with it yet. If they want something fun to enjoy at the range and wont hurt their wallet, then a Del-ton, CMMG, or something similar will be a good rifle for him/her.

What Just Happened?
09-18-2008, 7:56 PM
Here's some awesome information that AR15barrels.com wrote up on AR15.com

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=266108

HonorThe2nd
09-18-2008, 8:01 PM
I am planning on spending between $500 to $600 on something decent with the least amount of problems that I can take to the range (Laguna Seca) and hopefully hit the center of the target (mabey even hit the gong on the hill).
Thank you all for all the info. ChrisX, hopefully I will get a chance to talk to you at the range and "PLEASE STAY BEHIND THE RED LINE" LOL!!!

45R
09-18-2008, 8:07 PM
What it comes down to is the middy is better in every way to the carbine.

No problems with my Noveske Carbine :)

bombadillo
09-18-2008, 8:47 PM
Don't throw around the term "mil-spec." No commercial rifle is truly "mil-spec."
- Mil-spec dimensions maybe, but not materials or QC.
The important/expensive things you're paying for in an upper are the barrel and the BCG. You get what you pay for here. I'm not trying to say that you made a bad decision with using Del-Ton in your build; it may very well be perfect for your needs. Not everyone needs an expensive rifle; for most people, I agree with you that it is over-kill. But this person hasn't said what they plan to do with it yet. If they want something fun to enjoy at the range and wont hurt their wallet, then a Del-ton, CMMG, or something similar will be a good rifle for him/her.

I understand, what the mil-spec tolerances are and understand that the military pays the lowest bidder for the same product and they happen to be the military supplier, so just because its military, just remember that the contract went to the lowest bidder. I'm just saying tolerances and things like that are all up to snuff. It sounds like the guy wants a cheap plinker that will hit a gong, and make it go bang while punching a hole through a piece of paper, not a 1000 yard tack driver. I'm not pushing del-ton, just making sure people know what they're paying for, and a lot of it is in a name. To the OP, if I were in your shoes, check cmmg, del-ton, spikes, RRA, and the local vendors at the top of the page. I'd shy away from stag for the most part, and if you can afford LMT, or Noveske, go for it.

-hanko
09-18-2008, 8:54 PM
Not trying to be a jerk, but I have handled and shot Delton uppers. I haven't seen any that shoot like this or have the fit and finish of the higher end uppers (shot @ 100yd with a Larue 16" stealth upper, Prvi ammo, hot barrel, top two are sight in shots, 10x scope). To the OP, how much are you planning to spend? Get yourself a mid-length no matter what you choose.
Nice group.

I'd describe the acid test as standing with iron sights;). Have you tried that?? If so, how'd she shoot??

-hanko

joe_sun
09-18-2008, 9:00 PM
No problems with my Noveske Carbine :)

Never said the carbine didn't work I said the middy is better and it is.

I also said if you wanted more to back it up to go to www.m4carbine.net but since people here seem to think that ARF is the best site in the world I'll post some info from a true AR master, KL Davis

Here is the link [URL="http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=94[/URL]

Here's another link to read http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9792&highlight=

==============================
In order to understand this, there are a few things
about the functioning of the AR that have to be
defined, I am away from most of my notes and stuff, so
most of the figures given are from memory... but
should be pretty close. For this description, the
standard rifle gas system is with the gas port located
at 13.0" and having a 20" barrel... the standard
carbine system is with the port at 7.5" and a barrel
of 14.5"

The pressures at the gas ports are: 13.5K for the
rifle and 26K for the carbine -- or twice as much.

The dwell time (the time that the gas system is
charged with high pressure) is determined by the
amount of barrel after the gas port. These are nearly
identical between the rifle and the carbine.

Pressure from the port is regulated only by the size
of the gas port and the diameter of the barrel.

These two factors determine the internal bolt
pressure, the maximum pressure that is obtained in the
bolt carrier/piston combination -- for the rifle this
pressure is about 1000psi and for the carbine it is
over 1500psi, half again as much.

When the rifle is fired, primer shot sets the bullet
forward until it contacts the rifling, at this point
the powder charge ignites and sets the shell case
fully back, binds the action and start to propel the
bullet. The bullet jumps slightly again and is etched
by the rifling... it stops again very briefly as the
pressures build to a point for the bullet to overcome
the mechanical advantage of the rifling twist and the
! bullet starts to spin, at this point the chamber
pressure is at max, 50K plus (there are some that
believe there is another, third stop the bullet makes
and some testing suggest this may be true).

As the chamber pressures start to climb, the brass
case expands and becomes plastic, this is essential to
seal the case in the chamber -- the correct term for
this is Obturation, when the case is obturated and
sealed, it is stuck in the chamber, practically welded
in really.

The Lock Time, or the time that the action remains
locked with no attempt to start unlocking is very
important... on the rifle, the lock time is about 550
microseconds, the lock time for the carbine is about
375 microseconds -- this may not seem like much, but
it is much shorter of a time, also keep mind that the
chamber pressures are twice as high in the carbine
when the unlocking starts.

What does all of this mean? When the carbine is fired,
the system attempts to unlock earlier than intended
and while the case is still fully obtucated... this
results in the action bind delaying the unlocking and
stressing the system. As the 5.56N is not drastically
tapered, "squirting" is not a big problem in most
guns. When the internal bolt pressures finally unlock
the bolt, the velocity of the reward movement in the
carbine is much higher than what the rifle was
designed for, it also must start extraction of the
obtucated case... as you know, the AR does not have
any sort of initial extraction, perhaps the single
biggest shortcoming of the design. This has been known
to cause ripped case heads...

At this point, as the bolt start to unlock, it is
rotated to unlock... due to much higher velocities
with the carbine, the rotation of the bolt creates
some centrifical force and helps to "float" the extractor...
the extractor on the AR is not balanced and the
forward part of it weighs more -- some argue that the
pressure of the extracted cartridge case keeps the
case head against the bolt face and test have shown
that the extractor does not generate enough force to
actually life from the case, but the fact is that the
extractor does float enough to negate some of the
spring pressure, and the contact with the case
rim becomes "soft". For this reason, it is much more
likely that the extractor will simply pop off, rather
than actually rip the case.

Balanced extractors and different designs have been
developed (LMT), but the best solution to date has
been stronger extractor springs and spring buffers.
That about covers the FTE issues...

Back to bolt velocity. The high speed of the bolt has
a couple of other detrimental effects, one of the most
common is that the bolt is cycled so fast that as it
returns to battery, it actually has enough force to
"bounce" off of the barrel extension when closing and
locking... this bounce back is very small, but can be
enough to cause the weapon not to fire... this "bolt
bounce" is pretty well known.

One other problem is that the bolt can cycle so fast
the magazine spring can not keep up with it and the
round stack is not properly aligned and forced back
into place before the bolt returns to batter --
therefore there is no new cartridge picked up and the
bolt closes on an empty chamber, this is what some
call "ghost loading", or bolt-over-base jams... this
is far worse in full auto fire as the bolt does
actually move faster in full auto than semi auto; this
is due to the fact that the top cartridge in the
magazine does not apply force to the bottom to the
bolt causing drag.

The common solution to this issue is to use a stronger
recoil spring and a heavier buffer... this works, but
is treating the symptom, not the problem.

PigTail and expansion chamber gas tubes attempt to
fool the rifle into thinking that the gas port is,
located further away that it really is, but they are
not as good of a solution as actually moving the gas
port out...

I guess that about covers it for a quick rundown, of
course all of this is not nearly as simple as it
sounds.

ChrisXD45T
09-18-2008, 9:00 PM
I understand, what the mil-spec tolerances are and understand that the military pays the lowest bidder for the same product and they happen to be the military supplier, so just because its military, just remember that the contract went to the lowest bidder. I'm just saying tolerances and things like that are all up to snuff. It sounds like the guy wants a cheap plinker that will hit a gong, and make it go bang while punching a hole through a piece of paper, not a 1000 yard tack driver. I'm not pushing del-ton, just making sure people know what they're paying for, and a lot of it is in a name. To the OP, if I were in your shoes, check cmmg, del-ton, spikes, RRA, and the local vendors at the top of the page. I'd shy away from stag for the most part, and if you can afford LMT, or Noveske, go for it.
Are you aware that we are both saying the same thing in different ways? :confused:

nobs11
09-18-2008, 9:01 PM
Was the group shot off the bench??

How's she do with iron sights, standing??


Yes, front sand bag. I don't have irons on that upper.

Offhand, you would be testing the shooter and the gun to a lesser extent. The guy asked for recommendations on an upper, not my shooting skills. Thanks.

Hoop
09-18-2008, 9:04 PM
I am planning on spending between $500 to $600 on something decent with the least amount of problems that I can take to the range (Laguna Seca) and hopefully hit the center of the target (mabey even hit the gong on the hill).
Thank you all for all the info. ChrisX, hopefully I will get a chance to talk to you at the range and "PLEASE STAY BEHIND THE RED LINE" LOL!!!

That means probably an RRA, Stag, Armalite or CMMG most likely. Do you want sights or flattop? You want rails for doohickeys or nothing at all on it?

joe_sun
09-18-2008, 9:11 PM
You can get a Milspec BCM middy upper for $450.00 add a Milspec LMT or BCM BCG for $129.00. Add a charging handle and handguards for $40.00 and you have an upper that's second to none for $619.00.

How much money are you going to save getting garbage such as Stag, RAA, CMMG where they don't stake the carrier correctly, the bolt isn't MPI tested, the barrel isn't true milspec 4150.. heck it's probably 4140, the chamber isn't NATO and so on.

Go talk to Larry Vickers, he runs BCM as his main upper.

Here's what you are looking for in an upper. I stole this list from Grant at G&R Tactical. Hope you don't mind buddy.

Thing is with AR stuff is there are not that many experts just a bunch of people that think they are because they read ARF.com If you're not looking for a rifle to bet your life on then who cares, you'll get whatever you're going to get anyway but IMO it's stupid not to pay a little more for the best. One more thing, regardless of what people say, the lower is the least important part of the AR. The barrel and BCG are the most critical. Don't skimp.

Barrel Steel: 4150ORD, 4150SUL or CMV
Bolt Steel: 154 Carpenter
High pressure testing: Both bolt and barrel
Magnetic Particle Inspection: Both bolt and barrel
Barrel Extension: M4
Upper Receiver: M4
Gas key: Properly Staked
Castle Nut: Properly Staked
Receiver Extension: Mil-Spec 7071 impact extrusion
Buffer: H, H2 or H3 (depending on barrel length and type of gas system)
Gas port size for a Carbine: .063
FSB: Rated for flat top (F stamped)
Chrome Lining: Yes
Twist rate: 1/7 (handles everything from 55gr to 80gr well)
Chamber: 556 NATO

joe_sun
09-18-2008, 9:17 PM
+1 Mid-length. What the others said.

I'm not trolling, but arf.com is for mall ninjas, and Del-ton is considered "low end." Take a look at m4carbine.net.

Ben

It's like pissing in a rainstorm

45R
09-18-2008, 9:40 PM
Never said the carbine didn't work I said the middy is better and it is.

I also said if you wanted more to back it up to go to www.m4carbine.net but since people here seem to think that ARF is the best site in the world I'll post some info from a true AR master, KL Davis

Here is the link [URL="http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=94[/URL]

Here's another link to read http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9792&highlight=


You really like typing "I said" :43:

joe_sun
09-18-2008, 9:54 PM
You really like typing "I said" :43:

LOL

I may love typing that but all I've been saying for the last 3 weeks is "My back hurts!"

I'm up right now because of the pain, maybe I should pay you a visit Nelson :)

You also have a Noveske and it will run just fine.

45R
09-18-2008, 9:59 PM
LOL

I may love typing that but all I've been saying for the last 3 weeks is "My back hurts!"

I'm up right now because of the pain, maybe I should pay you a visit Nelson :)

If your hurting that bad shoot me and email and I'll get you taken cared of. :)

Forty5R@yahoo.com

a1fabweld
09-18-2008, 11:51 PM
[QUOTE=joe_sun;1538643]How much money are you going to save getting garbage such as Stag, RAA, CMMG where they don't stake the carrier correctly, the bolt isn't MPI tested, the barrel isn't true milspec 4150.. heck it's probably 4140, the chamber isn't NATO and so on.

Ok, this guy is an AR yuppie.:rolleyes: So, to the OP, just in case the taliban soldiers start falling from the sky, make sure your bolt is mpi. Make sure your barrel isn't 4140 or it'll bend like a banana after your first shot. Just be certain that you have a BCM upper or the world will stop rotating! Just last weekend I saw at least a dozen AR bolts turn to powder because they were not mpi. Please dude, if this guy were going to war, I'd agree with you. RRA, CMMG, & Stag will be fine at the range. If you have the money, Buy the best thing available. If you're like most of us in need of a target gun, buy the above mentioned without worry.

joe_sun
09-19-2008, 5:59 AM
[QUOTE=joe_sun;1538643]How much money are you going to save getting garbage such as Stag, RAA, CMMG where they don't stake the carrier correctly, the bolt isn't MPI tested, the barrel isn't true milspec 4150.. heck it's probably 4140, the chamber isn't NATO and so on.



Ok, this guy is an AR yuppie.:rolleyes: So, to the OP, just in case the taliban soldiers start falling from the sky, make sure your bolt is mpi. Make sure your barrel isn't 4140 or it'll bend like a banana after your first shot. Just be certain that you have a BCM upper or the world will stop rotating! Just last weekend I saw at least a dozen AR bolts turn to powder because they were not mpi. Please dude, if this guy were going to war, I'd agree with you. RRA, CMMG, & Stag will be fine at the range. If you have the money, Buy the best thing available. If you're like most of us in need of a target gun, buy the above mentioned without worry.

edited because my org price of the RAA upper was $40.00 less that it costs on the website

Don't know about an AR yuppie but you're right, if you're shooting slow at the range, cleaning after every few hundred rounds and your life doesn't depend on the rifle then it doesn't matter.

I was pointing out that for the cost of a chrome barrel RAA middy upper, approx $510.00 which is considered pretty bottom of the barrel, OR you can spend $109.00 more to get a BCM or LMT upper that you could take to war.

$109.00 difference from top of the shelf to bottom of the barrel! Why would you NOT want to get pay the difference?

I also want to point out my one and only AR upper (I'm an AK guy) is a BCM middy with an LMT BCG

shark92651
09-19-2008, 8:37 AM
How much money are you going to save getting garbage such as Stag, RAA, CMMG where they don't stake the carrier correctly, the bolt isn't MPI tested, the barrel isn't true milspec 4150.. heck it's probably 4140, the chamber isn't NATO and so on.

Wow, I'm used to seeing the weekly Stag bashing but I think this is the first time I've seen CMMG referred to as "garbage" ;)

a1fabweld
09-19-2008, 10:29 AM
Wow, I'm used to seeing the weekly Stag bashing but I think this is the first time I've seen CMMG referred to as "garbage" ;)

Joe-sun summed up with his statement that about half the Calgunners rifles are garbage. I understand that BCM has higher q.c., but they only offer THREE m4 models & two of which are the same length. What if a guy doesn't want an m4 barrel? You can cross BCM off the list. CMMG & RRA offer just about every possible combo you can think of. I hope your BCM serves you well in your war! LOL!!

xrMike
09-19-2008, 11:45 AM
Nice group.

I'd describe the acid test as standing with iron sights;). Have you tried that?? If so, how'd she shoot??

-hankoHeheh, that's going to reveal the deficiencies of the shooter, much more so than the gun. ;)

keepandbear91
09-19-2008, 1:57 PM
+1 on the Mid-Length (CMMG 16" Mid-Length upper at Rifflegear.com) fits your proposed budget and enough left over for a Troy Folding rear battle sight.

joe_sun
09-19-2008, 10:20 PM
Joe-sun summed up with his statement that about half the Calgunners rifles are garbage. I understand that BCM has higher q.c., but they only offer THREE m4 models & two of which are the same length. What if a guy doesn't want an m4 barrel? You can cross BCM off the list. CMMG & RRA offer just about every possible combo you can think of. I hope your BCM serves you well in your war! LOL!!

shark92651, this first part is directed to you as well:

Garbage was harsh and I blame my backpain on it but for the minimal price difference you SO could have gotten something better.

The BCM middy isn't an a "M4" barrel.

The op asked about middy and carbine length uppers so that's what I wrote about. If you're looking for something "different" then there are other choices such as Noveske, Sabre Defense, Charles Daly, LMT to name a few better than RRA, Stag and CMMG or you could have someone like Grant at G&R Tactical or Denny at Global Tactical build something custom for you.

Are you saying that just because they have the best selection they are quality?

My "war" as you call it was to give some good advice to someone who asked some valid questions. It's not my fault everyone who bought a Bushmaster, Stag, RAA, SMMG, Del-ton, DPMS or whatever has to jump up and try to defend their purchase. I don't care what you bought. Hell before I started reading Larry Vickers and many others I had no clue what a quality AR needed.

I'll say this again in a different way so as you can try and understand.

If you're shooting at the range or hunting and never ever plan to use your AR-15 in any life or death situation then by all means get whatever you want to get. Does it matter if the bolt isn't MPI tested, the carrier staked properly or any of the other things I've written about? No because when it breaks it only ruined your day at the range.

BUT

You don't have to pay MUCH MORE for a HUGE difference in quality probably right around 10% more in cost.

Let me put it to you a different way. A lot of people buy Kia cars right? Well if you could get a brand new equivalent BMW for 10% more than the cost of a Kia would you do it? Some people no, me.. hell ya.

Hoop
09-20-2008, 8:23 AM
Wow, I'm used to seeing the weekly Stag bashing but I think this is the first time I've seen CMMG referred to as "garbage" ;)

Yeah that was pretty funny.

I had no idea all my guns are garbage :confused:

aplinker
09-20-2008, 12:52 PM
Wow, I'm used to seeing the weekly Stag bashing but I think this is the first time I've seen CMMG referred to as "garbage" ;)

David... there are two perspectives you need to take this from.

The first is from a commercial standpoint. If someone is looking for a rifle to shoot and enjoy, there's NOTHING wrong with any of the AR15 makers. Some will have lower QC, will need things done to fix them, might have rougher work, but they will run. Price gains you better materials, more QC, etc. Some $ gets you just name.

Now, from a fighting carbine perspective, skipping the QC and "extras" is a big deal. This is what the guys at m4carbine.net are looking at, and why the all suck the Colt Kool-Aid. I think it's understandable. When you run your gun for 500-1000 rounds a day, all the time, you start to see where the "little things" make big differences. Some is science, some is voodoo, but you tend to migrate towards what really does work. Proper QC & materials means it runs without breakage & stops. You're pushing things to the limit.

Stag, BM, others are looked down on because they don't do the full QC and features package. Stag doesn't stake keys properly, use top quality steel for their barrels, MPI test, and doesn't even put M4 feedramps on their M4 uppers/barrels. I'd say those are pretty big issues. CMMG doesn't do some of the package (you can "upgrade" the bolt to nearly get it all, but they do run 4150/MPI barrels - which is good).

From a buyer's perspective you need to consider whether you think the tweaks and package are necessary, then do what you think is the best choice with your money. On the other hand, it's easy to get caught up in wanting the the currently considered best just because real fighters say so.


I understand, what the mil-spec tolerances are and understand that the military pays the lowest bidder for the same product and they happen to be the military supplier, so just because its military, just remember that the contract went to the lowest bidder. I'm just saying tolerances and things like that are all up to snuff. It sounds like the guy wants a cheap plinker that will hit a gong, and make it go bang while punching a hole through a piece of paper, not a 1000 yard tack driver. I'm not pushing del-ton, just making sure people know what they're paying for, and a lot of it is in a name. To the OP, if I were in your shoes, check cmmg, del-ton, spikes, RRA, and the local vendors at the top of the page. I'd shy away from stag for the most part, and if you can afford LMT, or Noveske, go for it.

From this post and your other prior, it's clear you have a very poor understanding of mil-spec and what it means when it come to rifles. Lowest price that meets spec isn't the same as lowest price. Especially considering most things you call mil-spec don't actually meet the spec and a good portion of the spec does things with the system, not the individual parts.

bombadillo
09-20-2008, 1:48 PM
I think that you misread what I was posting about. I'm not asking or questioning your knowlege of the almighty AR because we all know you have more info than I do. I think we're actually saying the same thing a little different. It isn't that I don't have a clear understanding, I just don't want somebody to go out and buy some high dollar rifle to shoot at a piece of paper 90 feet away. Wow, people take these little discussions way too far sometimes.

nobs11
09-20-2008, 2:48 PM
I just don't want somebody to go out and buy some high dollar rifle to shoot at a piece of paper 90 feet away. Wow, people take these little discussions way too far sometimes.

No, most of us are not going to shoot our rifles in the heat of battle at moving targets that shoot back. It is a hobby for most but we'd like to spend our hard earned money on quality products.

Does the average Porsche 911 driver going to race it at a high pressure international venue? Does the guy with the watch marked "guaranteed water proof up to 1000m" go deep sea diving every weekend?

When I was in college and had no money I used to buy tons of cans of surplus 308 ammo for not a lot of money (a while ago) and shoot them out of my Enfield rifle. That was good enough for me at the time and definitely good enough when shooting at paper. Do I think everyone should buy a crappy surplus rifle and shoot the heck out of it because they don't really need a top dollar AR? No. It is the buyer's decision.

joe_sun
09-20-2008, 3:15 PM
No, most of us are not going to shoot our rifles in the heat of battle at moving targets that shoot back. It is a hobby for most but we'd like to spend our hard earned money on quality products.

Does the average Porsche 911 driver going to race it at a high pressure international venue? Does the guy with the watch marked "guaranteed water proof up to 1000m" go deep sea diving every weekend?

When I was in college and had no money I used to buy tons of cans of surplus 308 ammo for not a lot of money (a while ago) and shoot them out of my Enfield rifle. That was good enough for me at the time and definitely good enough when shooting at paper. Do I think everyone should buy a crappy surplus rifle and shoot the heck out of it because they don't really need a top dollar AR? No. It is the buyer's decision.

The beautiful thing about your analogy is that the difference between a low end vs a top end AR is approx 10% How many people would rather have a Porsche for 10% more than the cost of a Mustang? How about a Rolex for only 10% more of the cost of a Timex?

Why then not spend the extra 10% on top end AR parts.

aplinker
09-21-2008, 12:56 PM
The beautiful thing about your analogy is that the difference between a low end vs a top end AR is approx 10% How many people would rather have a Porsche for 10% more than the cost of a Mustang? How about a Rolex for only 10% more of the cost of a Timex?

Why then not spend the extra 10% on top end AR parts.

It's more like 20-30%, but the statement still stands ;)

I think that you misread what I was posting about. I'm not asking or questioning your knowlege of the almighty AR because we all know you have more info than I do. I think we're actually saying the same thing a little different. It isn't that I don't have a clear understanding, I just don't want somebody to go out and buy some high dollar rifle to shoot at a piece of paper 90 feet away. Wow, people take these little discussions way too far sometimes.

:rolleyes:

You essentially stated that mil-spec from Colt means the same thing as mil-spec from M1S, and that the Colt might even be worse since they're "low bidder" to the gov't.

No one is taking the discussion too far. I have no dogs in this fight.

The QC/design packages are only held by Colt and FN. Some companies voluntarily do some or all of those, as no one is required to outside of the mil contractors. Only by reputation and what they actually produce, as well as the QC they run, can you judge those companies, however Colts are actually run all the way up to that QC mark and have done all of the checks required by the military. That says something about the quality you can expect.

It's not to say the Colt is the best made - a builder could actually exceed the military spec by using higher grade materials, tighter tolerances (not larger parts, just tighter tolerances), more QC processes, etc.

The bottom line is better materials and higher QC usually mean an elevated price, but that price is only marginal. So, you need to decide if 20-30% difference (about $150-200) is large enough to go with another maker. That, and we can't buy complete Colts in CA. ;)