Concealed Carrying a Training Gun (w/o a CCW Permit): Am I Breaking the Law?

[Paladin]

As I posted before (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=118784), I'm very optimistic re our future, esp if McCain-Palin win. Because of that and because of reading about new CCW'ers mishaps (e.g., bathroom stall mistakes) and other "lessons learned" while first CCWing, I've recently started concealed carrying either a Blue Gun (http://www.blueguns.com/), or a Red Gun (scroll down to page 21 at: http://www.asp-net.com/catalog.html). I'm finding this a good way to test possible future CCW set ups w/o having a CCW permit. I get to try it out in real life, in various angles and types of lighting, and in various situations (driving, walking, running, sitting at work, etc.) to see how it feels, address retention issues, test the practicality of my choices, see whether the CC prints (and whether others notice), and to just get used to carrying. I figure it is wiser to work out any kinks ahead of time w/a training gun than to wait until I have a CCW and work them out w/a loaded gun. :eek:

Then I came across a CGN thread that spoke of a screwy PRK law making it illegal to paint (or sell? or manufacture?), guns certain colors (bright orange or green IIRC). That got me to wondering: Is there some screwy PRK law that I might be unintentionally breaking just by concealed carrying a training gun? No, I'm not brandishing or pulling it out and trying to make people believe it is a real gun. Just covertly testing various CCW gun & holster combinations in public.

BTW these training guns are excellent for practicing MMA w/your street setup in street clothes. I hope none of us here are naive enough to think that a gun will solve all the problems we may face.

[shark92651]

Well since it's not a real gun painted one of the banned colors, and since it's not a toy gun painted to look real I can't imagine what law you would be breaking.

[hitman13]

if it was illegal then ever 6 year old with a cap gun would become a felon..

[stphnman20]

I wouldn't think it is but you might get $h!t for it..

[stag1500]

I think what you're doing is an excellent idea! It's also good for building your self-confidence in that you'll become less self-conscious when you're out in public. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time in front of a mirror trying out different clothing to see if it will effectively conceal my gun or not. The very first time I packed a gun in Nevada, I felt really uncomfortable and thought that everybody in the world could see a buldge behind my right hip. :D In time that goes away.

[sorensen440]

Its legal to the best of my knowledge

[Liberty1]

Just don't open carry it!:p

12550. As used in this article, the following definitions apply:
(c) "Imitation firearm" means any BB device, toy gun, replica of a
firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in
coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a
reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm.


12556. (a) No person may openly display or expose any imitation
firearm, as defined in Section 12550, in a public place.

(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following, when the
imitation firearm is: (1) Packaged or concealed so that it is not subject to public
viewing.
(2) Displayed or exposed in the course of commerce, including
commercial film or video productions, or for service, repair, or
restoration of the imitation firearm.
(3) Used in a theatrical production, a motion picture, video,
television, or stage production.
(4) Used in conjunction with a certified or regulated sporting
event or competition.
(5) Used in conjunction with lawful hunting, or lawful pest
control activities.
(6) Used or possessed at certified or regulated public or private
shooting ranges.
(7) Used at fairs, exhibitions, expositions, or other similar
activities for which a permit has been obtained from a local or state
government.
(8) Used in military, civil defense, or civic activities,
including flag ceremonies, color guards, parades, award
presentations, historical reenactments, and memorials.
(9) Used for public displays authorized by public or private
schools or displays that are part of a museum collection.
(10) Used in parades, ceremonies, or other similar activities for
which a permit has been obtained from a local or state government.
(11) Displayed on a wall plaque or in a presentation case.
(12) Used in areas where the discharge of a firearm is lawful.
(13) A device where the entire exterior surface of the device is
white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright
blue, bright pink, or bright purple, either singly or as the
predominant color in combination with other colors in any pattern, or
where the entire device is constructed of transparent or translucent
materials which permits unmistakable observation of the device's
complete contents. Merely having an orange tip as provided in
federal law and regulations does not satisfy this requirement. The
entire surface must be colored or transparent or translucent.

(e) For purposes of this section, the term "public place" means an
area open to the public and includes streets, sidewalks, bridges,
alleys, plazas, parks, driveways, front yards, parking lots,
automobiles, whether moving or not, and buildings open to the general
public, including those that serve food or drink, or provide
entertainment, and the doorways and entrances to buildings or
dwellings.

(f) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude
prosecution for a violation of Section 171b, 171.5, or 626.10.

Looks like (d-13) saves the day for open carry practice;)

(e) is really scary if they're able to use that definition elsewhere in the code (as in 12031)

[tyrist]

Just don't open carry it!:p



Looks like (d-13) saves the day for open carry practice;)

(e) is really scary if they're able to use that definition elsewhere in the code (as in 12031)

the first two violation are only infractions anyway.

[Paladin]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I now feel I'm on safer legal ground.

I'll also be trying out secondary/alternate carry and BUG gun-holster combinations this way.

If I have any encounters w/LEOs, I'll post the results. I don't expect any since, as they say, concealed means concealed! If I do, I'll know ahead of time that a certain "gun" and holster combination just isn't going to work for me when I do get a CCW. This way, I should be able to hit the ground running when I do get issued.

Speaking of that, Gene, when will . . . oh, never mind! ;)

[N6ATF]

Red gun/blue gun, good idea. But on my budget I could only afford to paper mache!

[Liberty1]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I now feel I'm on safer legal ground.

I'll also be trying out secondary/alternate carry and BUG gun-holster combinations this way.

If I have any encounters w/LEOs, I'll post the results. I don't expect any since, as they say, concealed means concealed! If I do, I'll know ahead of time that a certain "gun" and holster combination just isn't going to work for me when I do get a CCW. This way, I should be able to hit the ground running when I do get issued.

Speaking of that, Gene, when will . . . oh, never mind! ;)

I still think this is pretty strange though. Are you going to weigh down the dummy gun so it has the same weight as a loaded real one?

Are you going to carry a real one cc in your residence? If not why not? Or join a gun club and pack unloaded while enroute to/from?

I'm having as hard a time with your ccing a fake gun as some have with OC and separate loaded mag:D. I just don't really get it. Good luck though but I'd think if a copper gotcha you'd be 5150ed as a danger to yourself after all who'd CC a fake gun? Safer to UOC I think:p

[Paladin]

I still think this is pretty strange though. Are you going to weigh down the dummy gun so it has the same weight as a loaded real one?While the ASP Red Guns are described as "lightweight replicas," the linked homepage of Ring's Blue Guns says, "Each product is made with strong, impact-resistant polyurethane with steel reinforcement. This prevents bending and flexing while maintaining the detail, handling and balance of the actual weapon they represent." I haven't compared their weight to the actual guns they represent yet. Thanks for pointing that out.

Before buying, registering, and licensing for carry the real thing (costs in time, effort, money, and gov't paperwork), I want to do what I can to make sure I've got things right. Too many times I've read of or known people who start CC'ing one thing and then go thru 2 or 3 transitions before settling on something else (usually smaller and lighter). After reading some of the comments here, I realize I should cc the set up I settle upon w/a training gun for at least a few weeks straight since some friends (in Shall Issue states) discovered that what is tolerable for a day or two ends up being a pain month after month after month.

Are you going to carry a real one cc in your residence? If not why not?I don't own the handgun(s) that I hope to cc w/a CCW, therefore I have not. The qualities I look for in a nightstand handgun are different from those I look for in a CC handgun. The balance point of conflicting qualities (e.g., small size vs capacity) are different for a CC handgun than they are for a nightstand handgun.

One of the reasons I bought my Blue Guns was to cheaply "try out" different guns to see how they would work for my CCW. You can only tell so much by handling the real thing in a gun store and gun store clerks usually don't let you take their gun, load it, and put it in a holster you are wearing and go walking around, bending over, drawing w/it in their store, not to mention taking it for a "test drive" for a few days outside. :D

Only recently did I decide to cc training guns in public.

Or join a gun club and pack unloaded while enroute to/from? :confused: Unloaded concealed?

Either way, as I wrote above, I do not own (yet!), the gun(s) that I would cc w/a CCW. Now that my chances are looking up (due to Heller), I'm starting to plan ahead and simulate cc'ing different guns and gun and holster combinations.

I'm having as hard a time with your ccing a fake gun as some have with OC and separate loaded mag:D. I just don't really get it. Good luck though but I'd think if a copper gotcha you'd be 5150ed as a danger to yourself after all who'd CC a fake gun? Safer to UOC I think:pFirst off, it is not a "fake gun," but rather a training replica. I'm not trying to fake someone into believing it is a real gun. That might get me into legal trouble that could ultimately keep me from getting a CCW.

UOC announces to the world that you are carrying an empty gun. In the places where I'd most likely need a gun, cc'ing BGs might see my gun, like it, and shoot me before I'd see them and be able draw, load, rack and shoot.

I won't be carrying a gun (empty or otherwise) to make a political statement. I'll only UOC to force CCW issuance. I'll LOC, when it is legal, when hiking, biking, jogging, or in really hot weather if CA keeps banning NAA Guardians.

As far as LEOs, I'd just explain what and why I was doing what I was and -- if they act like LEOs I've talked w/about Shall Issue -- they'll either be politely disinterested or supportive. FWIW Red Guns and Blue Guns were originally created for LE training so they'll probably be quite familiar w/them and what I'm doing w/them.

[Liberty1]

...

I support 110% your choice to do it your way!!!!!!!:D But once you've made your choice of carry pieces, carry it at home on your hip!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty1
Or join a gun club and pack unloaded while enroute to/from?

Unloaded concealed?

I'm referring to the exemption in 12027 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12020-12040) for members of ranges.

[bulgron]

What if I wanted to CC a real gun, but one that was not loaded?

[Patriot]

What if I wanted to CC a real gun, but one that was not loaded?

Bad idea without CCW

[gravedigger]

I'm the owner of a towing service, so my "legal opinion" is worth just that. However, a few questions pop up in my mind.

I believe that concealed carrying a replica gun can get you in trouble wit the law because there are laws that fall under the definition of "public disturbance". For instance, you can't walk into a public place with the cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels painted red and having a gray piece of twine protruding from one end. Even though it ISN'T dynamite, you could probably be cited for creating a public disturbance because someone might THINK it was, and if that person sounded the alarm and caused a crowd to trample each other, you would certainly be standing before a judge even though it was just a mock-up. Also, in California, whether a gun is real or not, makes no difference when used in a crime, and I am NOT confident that a judge would acknowledge the difference during your "exercise."

Think about the "dry runs" Al Qaida is doing, walking into airports and other places with things that are substitutes for the real explosives, but legal to carry otherwise, just to "test the waters" of the security in a location. This is the reason airplane passengers can now only take small amounts of certain liquids in their carry-on luggage. Someone tried to make a chemical bomb my mixing seemingly inert liquids in the bathroom that were carried on by several passengers, making a bomb when those chemicals are properly mixed in the right proportions.

If an over zealous cop decides that you are not training for future CC, but rather testing the store's security to determine whether they can detect a concealed weapon, you might win in court, but you'll have a rough time with Barney Fife pointing his service weapon at you while imagining himself on the evening news as having stopped a "terrorist."

The red gun - blue gun argument could also be seen as a test. "If the security can't see this bright RED gun, chances are really good that they won't see a black one."

Then there is the issue of the imprint. If Barney decides to NOT allow you to show him that the "gun" he made is a replica, he might shoot you before you get a chance to open your vest.

Beyond that, remember that people are STUPID. There are people out there who believe that a red or blue replica gun ARE real guns, because they've never been to a gun store or a range or a gun show, so THEY DON'T KNOW. They hear about "plastic guns" that can be smuggled past metal detectors, their kids TOYS are made out of red and blue plastic, and they then conclude that you have a REAL gun made out of red or blue plastic.

I am all for a training exercise, and I LOVE the idea. I am just playing devil's advocate here.

[Patriot]

Nothing wrong with playing the devil's advocate (and in fact, it can be beneficial).

I'm the owner of a towing service, so my "legal opinion" is worth just that. However, a few questions pop up in my mind.

I believe that concealed carrying a replica gun can get you in trouble wit the law because there are laws that fall under the definition of "public disturbance". For instance, you can't walk into a public place with the cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels painted red and having a gray piece of twine protruding from one end. Even though it ISN'T dynamite, you could probably be cited for creating a public disturbance because someone might THINK it was, and if that person sounded the alarm and caused a crowd to trample each other, you would certainly be standing before a judge even though it was just a mock-up.

The counter to this in my opinion is the truism that "concealed means concealed" or "concealed means just that." If someone sees it and freaks out, you're doing it wrong.

There is probably also some precedent (binding or no) that supports the contention that merely legally carrying (concealed or open, real or fake) is not in itself enough to constitute public disturbance.

Also, in California, whether a gun is real or not, makes no difference when used in a crime

First a crime has to be committed in which the "gun" is used. (I'm pretty sure they can't add that as an enhancement for purely gun-related crimes - possession, carry, etc. - there has to be some other criminal act the gun is "used" in)

I am NOT confident that a judge would acknowledge the difference during your "exercise."Think about the "dry runs" Al Qaida is doing, walking into airports and other places with things that are substitutes for the real explosives, but legal to carry otherwise, just to "test the waters" of the security in a location. This is the reason airplane passengers can now only take small amounts of certain liquids in their carry-on luggage. Someone tried to make a chemical bomb my mixing seemingly inert liquids in the bathroom that were carried on by several passengers, making a bomb when those chemicals are properly mixed in the right proportions.

Common sense would dictate that in training for CCWing a real firearm, there is no reason to take the fake gun anywhere you would not take a real gun. While I acknowledge the concern over possible penetration testing, to my knowledge, the act in itself is not a crime so long as the items are not illegal. Again, these concerns are probably limited to "fake-CCWing" in a secure environment.

If an over zealous cop decides that you are not training for future CC, but rather testing the store's security to determine whether they can detect a concealed weapon, you might win in court, but you'll have a rough time with Barney Fife pointing his service weapon at you while imagining himself on the evening news as having stopped a "terrorist."

Store's security? :confused: Unless penetration testing is a pre-established criminal act, this is a moot point. Any officer would probably be more concerned with immediate safety than the more elaborate stuff anyway.

The red gun - blue gun argument could also be seen as a test. "If the security can't see this bright RED gun, chances are really good that they won't see a black one."

Again, unless this is illegal....

Then there is the issue of the imprint. If Barney decides to NOT allow you to show him that the "gun" he made is a replica, he might shoot you before you get a chance to open your vest.

I'd imagine in a situation like this the most important thing to do is be cool and not do anything that might escalate things. Of course, depending on the obviousness of the imprint, this could go for cellphones, ipods, multi-tools, etc.