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deleted by PC police
09-17-2008, 4:31 PM
when I move back to the free world??? I shot a Thompson in vegas and loved the hell out of it so when I get back on my feet I'm going to look into getting something like it. I was thinking something in 9mm to help minimize the ammo costs.

Also what all do I have to go through to get something like that?

-hanko
09-17-2008, 4:50 PM
when I move back to the free world??? I shot a Thompson in vegas and loved the hell out of it so when I get back on my feet I'm going to look into getting something like it. I was thinking something in 9mm to help minimize the ammo costs.

Also what all do I have to go through to get something like that?
First question...how much is your budget.

check www.titleii.com

-hanko

bohoki
09-17-2008, 4:55 PM
its a pretty penny since the only ones available had be be registered back in 1986 or before

i think the sten is the cheapest generally same goes with the magazines

if you have the dough get an m-16 that way you can use a multitude of uppers for easy and cheap conversions

but you are going to be limited to what is in stock

you cant go wrong with just about any of them

mac-11
s&w 76
hkmp5
uzi


there are quite a few that youve never heard of but make sure you get one that uses readily available durable magazines

sten,uzi,mp5

Q
09-17-2008, 5:04 PM
I want to buy ca legal c&r thompson. :)

CRTguns
09-17-2008, 5:06 PM
3 words...

U M P

X-NewYawker
09-17-2008, 5:15 PM
Price + coolness = Thompson.

Bowser
09-17-2008, 5:21 PM
If you obtain an M16 with all the paper work, can you convert it to another caliber? Or will you have to do more paperwork for it as another gun?

hitmeallday900
09-17-2008, 5:33 PM
get something cooler a Beretta M93R. Imagine that with a CCW

localguy
09-17-2008, 5:36 PM
get something cooler a Beretta M93R. Imagine that with a CCW

Don't think I've seen one privately-owned.




Not really a submachine gun, but get an AR-15 Drop-In Auto Sear (DIAS) if you can find one.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

Jpach
09-17-2008, 5:37 PM
+10000 on the UMP!!!!!

Hopi
09-17-2008, 5:48 PM
Not really a submachine gun, but get an AR-15 Drop-In Auto Sear (DIAS) if you can find one.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

+1
A .22lr conversion would work out nicely as well......a 500 round drum would sound about right......

deleted by PC police
09-17-2008, 5:48 PM
I have not established my budget yet. I'm going to start saving for it and when I get enough for what I decide on I will buy. I was thinking about an M-16 because of being able to use different uppers but ammo's more expensive and I already blow through it like it's going out of style. I definatley have not rulled an M-16 out but I think something along the lines of an mp5 is probably a better option.

dwa
09-17-2008, 6:00 PM
pps 43

deleted by PC police
09-17-2008, 6:25 PM
Can we get AK-47U's in the free world?

CHS
09-17-2008, 6:25 PM
Cheapest road would be a registered DIAS or lightning link in an AR lower.
Next cheapest would be a registered MAC11.

Then you could build a 9mm FA AR.

But seriously, when 30 year old guns are going for 10K$ and up, ammo should be your last cost concern.

deleted by PC police
09-17-2008, 6:37 PM
I bought 1000 rounds of 9mm ammo at a gun show in SLC one year on Friday night and had to go buy another 1000 rounds Sunday cause I was out. Ammo's a bit of a concern, it's not uncommon for a range trip to last 4 or 5 hours for me. I just relax and shoot.

1919_4_ME
09-17-2008, 6:40 PM
M-16 is the only way to go.:D

thebloodsonthewall
09-17-2008, 7:45 PM
I shot a semi auto Uzi in Nevada and it was a nice shootin gun. Just make sure to get the collapsible stock. I also shot an FN ps90 and that was a nice gun too.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 8:24 PM
3 words...

U M P

There are pre-86 UMP's? :eek:

GMONEY
09-17-2008, 8:25 PM
How about the MP7?

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 8:26 PM
Cheapest road would be a registered DIAS or lightning link in an AR lower.
Next cheapest would be a registered MAC11.

Then you could build a 9mm FA AR.

But seriously, when 30 year old guns are going for 10K$ and up, ammo should be your last cost concern.

Mac's are WAY cheaper than a DIAS.
You can still get complete MAC packages for $3000 (gun, mags, can, last year, walking around knob creek MG shoot)
DIAS are going for double that and more.

I would get an M16.
Put a 9mm or 22 upper on it for cheap fun.

Saigon1965
09-17-2008, 8:27 PM
You know better than that - He was referring to dealer samples


There are pre-86 UMP's? :eek:

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 8:28 PM
You know better than that - He was referring to dealer samples

You can't buy dealer samples if you are not a dealer.

Jpach
09-17-2008, 8:33 PM
There are pre-86 UMP's?


THERED BETTER BE!

bobfried
09-17-2008, 8:35 PM
Some of the suggestions are not very realistic. The UMP for one is not something your gonna be getting without an SOT and a love letter from an agency; so unless you want to invest a HUGE chunk of money to become an FFL, get an SOT than a demo letter from an agency your not getting one anytime soon. Of course if you have a few hundred thousands laying around I'd say go for it, I'd love to get an 07-FFL myself and buy all the toys I want. Just need to come up with the first $100,000 or so to get things up and running.

Anyways -

One does not mention MP-5's, M16's in the same vein as a Mac-11 and an Uzi. Here's quick price break down for you of guns you can ACTUALLY BUY in an NFA friendly state:

MP-5: $15,000-$25,000
M-16: $9,000-$20,000
AR-15 DIAS or LL: $7,000-$15,000
Uzi: $4,000-$7,000
MAC-11: $3,000-$5,000

As you can see the price range we're talking about are not exactly chump change, if your in the market for an MP-5 your not going to be in the same market as someone that buys an Uzi/MAC-11.

For a beginner your best bet is a MAC-11 with a Lage slow fire upper. This combo is currently the cheapest and is the one winning sub-gun matches all over the US. For about $4,000 you can get something like this:

http://www.max-11.com/photos/MAX11%20Cover.jpg

Invest another $1,000 in replacement parts, an Aimpoint, some other cool doodad and you've gut a submachine gun that will run with and beat the best of them.

Of course if you got an extra $25,000 laying around, there's nothing out there that can really touch an MP5k.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 8:35 PM
THERED BETTER BE!

Do you even know what month in 1986 that the NFA registry was closed?

stockplayer
09-17-2008, 8:38 PM
Don't think I've seen one privately-owned.




Not really a submachine gun, but get an AR-15 Drop-In Auto Sear (DIAS) if you can find one.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

where would one find one of those?

slick_711
09-17-2008, 8:41 PM
How about the MP7?

lol. Stop recommending illegal guns... although I'm sure it was accidental. ;)


If it was me I'd get either a DIAS or an M16 lower receiver. The lower is probably a better bet, sturdier than a DIAS perhaps. The receiver would also be your most versatile option. 9mm upper, .22lr upper for cheap ammo, .223 upper, SBR .223 upper... hell, one of each and all in the same pelican case. Toss in some suppressors...

I need to move.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 8:43 PM
Here's quick price break down for you of guns you can ACTUALLY BUY in an NFA friendly state:

MP-5: $15,000-$25,000
M-16: $9,000-$20,000
AR-15 DIAS or LL: $7,000-$15,000
Uzi: $4,000-$7,000
MAC-11: $3,000-$5,000

I have not seen a $9000 M16 in almost 3 years.

I should have bought one 7 years ago when I could have got one under 5K.
My buddy would have kept it safe for me until I got out of CA too... :(

bobfried
09-17-2008, 8:49 PM
I have not seen a $9000 M16 in almost 3 years.

I should have bought one 7 years ago when I could have got one under 5K.
My buddy would have kept it safe for me until I got out of CA too... :(

One popped up out in Mesa, AZ about 6 months back. It wasn't snatched up right away because people though it was a hoax. They're still out there but not something your going to find advertised online anytime soon. I know that they still pop up below 10k in the south on a semi-regular basis, Tennessee (the area around it also) is apparently a hotbed of cheaper M16's.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 8:54 PM
One popped up out in Mesa, AZ about 6 months back. It wasn't snatched up right away because people though it was a hoax. They're still out there but not something your going to find advertised online anytime soon. I know that they still pop up below 10k in the south on a semi-regular basis, Tennessee (the area around it also) is apparently a hotbed of cheaper M16's.

10-12K seems to be the most common asking price at the Knob Creek shoot last year.

freakshow10mm
09-17-2008, 9:00 PM
Of course if you have a few hundred thousands laying around I'd say go for it, I'd love to get an 07-FFL myself and buy all the toys I want. Just need to come up with the first $100,000 or so to get things up and running.


I'm an 07 FFL/ 02 SOT. It was $150 for the firearm manufacturer FFL, $500 for the class 2 manufacturer SOT, and $1750 yearly for the ITAR registration. Not even close to $100K.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 9:05 PM
I'm an 07 FFL/ 02 SOT. It was $150 for the firearm manufacturer FFL, $500 for the class 2 manufacturer SOT, and $1750 yearly for the ITAR registration. Not even close to $100K.

Do you have to do ITAR even if you are not exporting?

freakshow10mm
09-17-2008, 9:36 PM
Yes. Even gun parts manufacturers need to register with ITAR. ITAR includes all manufacturers, brokers, importers, and exporters. It was aimed at the big guys like ATK and such but the little guys like me got swept under the rug. "They" say the ITAR isn't enforced on the little guys, but $1750 sounds a lot cheaper than 10yrs and a $1 million fine.

freakshow10mm
09-17-2008, 9:43 PM
Information on the ITAR
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/official_itar_and_amendments.htm

Anything on this list is considered "defensive articles" and the manufacturers of such must register with the US State Department under the ITAR. Read over what it all entails. A bullet caster is a manufacturer of a defensive article and must register with the US State Dept under ITAR.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/docs/ITAR/2007/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf


Registration of manufacturers and exporters
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/docs/ITAR/2007/official_itar/ITAR_Part_122.pdf

Penalties for non-compliance
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/docs/ITAR/2007/official_itar/ITAR_Part_127.pdf

This used to be $250, but under the Bush Administration it was increased to $1750 per year.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 9:48 PM
Yes. Even gun parts manufacturers need to register with ITAR. ITAR includes all manufacturers, brokers, importers, and exporters. It was aimed at the big guys like ATK and such but the little guys like me got swept under the rug. "They" say the ITAR isn't enforced on the little guys, but $1750 sounds a lot cheaper than 10yrs and a $1 million fine.

I think I was given bad advice.
BATF told me I only had to register under ITAR if I wanted to export.
This was a few years ago though.
Have the regs changed in the last few years?

freakshow10mm
09-17-2008, 9:55 PM
Possibly. Currently the ATF and the State Dept don't get along. The ATF is trying to get something together to alert all 06 and 07 FFLs to the ITAR regulations but the State Dept won't give them much info at all. The ATF can't enforce the ITAR, as they can only enforce the NFA and GCA, but they can call the State Dept and say "so and so isn't registered. Look into it." and that's it.

Truth of the matter is under the current administration there has been a lot of restructuring of the ATF. The creation of the Tax and Trade Bureau being moved out of the ATF and into the Dept of Treasury as a separate agency is one thing.

The ITAR bull **** sucks monkey balls, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I know a few big name 07/02 manufacturers that don't pay ITAR. Been doing just fine without hassle. Jus' saying. $1750 yearly to cover your *** or $1 mil and 10 yrs to get a sore ***?

bobfried
09-17-2008, 10:05 PM
I'm an 07 FFL/ 02 SOT. It was $150 for the firearm manufacturer FFL, $500 for the class 2 manufacturer SOT, and $1750 yearly for the ITAR registration. Not even close to $100K.

Well than, that'll be a route I will look into.

I always though an 07 had to maintain certain stock/location criteria's and that was quite expensive. If one were to do as you say, what other costs are they looking at beyond the basic fee structure. Is insurance particularly more expensive for an 07 versus other types of FFL? Any special facility requirements? Any special zoning, state, local ordinance hurdles where you are?

If I can do it for less than $3,000 a year I would seriously consider getting an 07. Figure the total cost of 10 nice NFA examples to be well over the $100,000 mark, if I can own them for less than $3,000 a year it would be a great return on investment versus buying pre-86 stuff. Throw in a small income stream from the business and it would not be a bad coffee table job.

slick_711
09-17-2008, 10:08 PM
Well than, that'll be a route I will look into.

You'll notice Freakshow's location is MI... MI is a very pro-gun state. CA is not. $100k sounds like a bit much maybe, but I'd say his numbers are not realistic in CA.

ar15barrels
09-17-2008, 10:09 PM
I always though an 07 had to maintain certain stock/location criteria's and that was quite expensive. If one were to do as you say, what other costs are they looking at beyond the basic fee structure. Is insurance particularly more expensive for an 07 versus other types of FFL? Any special facility requirements? Any special zoning, state, local ordinance hurdles where you are?

From what I understand, it's the local regulations that get you.
CA is a major hassle to do NFA business.

My friend has to have this huge lockbox bolted in his SUV that he transports his NFA stuff in.
They inspect it just like a safe.

Outside CA, it's a lot easier.
Much more like a regular 01, a big safe bolted to the ground, insurance and a bound book.

bobfried
09-17-2008, 10:13 PM
You'll notice Freakshow's location is MI... MI is a very pro-gun state. CA is not. $100k sounds like a bit much maybe, but I'd say his numbers are not realistic in CA.

Understandable, my $100,000 figure stems from conversation with an operating FFL with a decent size shop so we're talking full retail. I figure an 07 would be equally expensive but now I remember all those coffee table FFL's.

I certainly would not do it in this state, figure AZ or TX since I have might move to those states (have lived there before) in the near future. The only gripe is any conflict of interests, if I ever end up in those two states I'll have to do some inquiring.

Just the zoning and local ordnance alone would rule me out of being an 07 FFL in California.

freakshow10mm
09-17-2008, 10:37 PM
I have no zoning laws in my village.

The state of Michigan does not regulate the firearms industry.

Insurance is not required for an FFL.

Gun safe is not required for an FFL.

Most of any SOT's business is dealing in Title I (normal) firearms and doing transfers of NFA weapons. Normal fee is anywhere from $50-100 per gun. I charge $75. In states that are NFA friendly (like my home state of Wisconsin) a dealer has more options for transfers. In MI, suppressors, SBR, and SBS are illegal except SOTs can have suppressors and C&R FFLs can have C&R guns that are short barreled. As a licensed NFA manufacturer I can't even make or possess short barreled weapons, nor can law enforcement or the ATF themselves (funny story for another thread).

I can make machine guns (post 86 sample LE or SOT dealer only), sound suppressors, and AOWs. I can also deal in them as well as Title I firearms and deal in those as well. I can also manufacture ammunition and components with my 07 FFL. I need a separate FFL to make and deal in Destructive Devices. The 07/02 combo is the best one to have. All of the major gun makers are 07/02s.

The NFA business is expensive. Most are 07/02s and make the SBW (short barrel weapons) and deal in other stuff until they can afford to stock transferrable MGs.

If you think the gun culture is cool, wait until you get inside the NFA culture. Tom Bowers got a kick out of my company name when I placed an order with him and told his wife "I have to meet guy some day". She said he laughed his butt off and said that is a great name. Very flattering. Mr. Bowers has been a 07/02 NFA manufacturer about as long as I've been alive (I'm 27yo)

Toolbox X
09-17-2008, 11:07 PM
3 words...

U M P

The HK UMP is the worst machinegun I have ever shot. I can't say enough bad things about it. If I was HK I would hold my head in shame for releasing that piece of horse @#$% into the world.

The UMP is such a piece of crap that even if the UMP was the only machinegun legal in CA, and I could buy one right now for $3000, I wouldn't hesitate for a single second before I said no @#$%ing way. I would rather have my tenth semi-auto AR that a full auto UMP.

The MP5 on the other hand, now that machinegun should have a glowing aurora of light and music should start playing when the safe opens and the MP5 becomes visible.

JPB
09-18-2008, 6:09 AM
I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the FNC yet. Last time I checked, those were the NFA steal.

drawn
09-18-2008, 7:21 AM
lol. Stop recommending illegal guns... although I'm sure it was accidental. ;)


If it was me I'd get either a DIAS or an M16 lower receiver. The lower is probably a better bet, sturdier than a DIAS perhaps. The receiver would also be your most versatile option. 9mm upper, .22lr upper for cheap ammo, .223 upper, SBR .223 upper... hell, one of each and all in the same pelican case. Toss in some suppressors...

I need to move.

Suppression should be a big factor in your choice. The comfort level would be worth every penny.:walkman:

Justin562
09-18-2008, 8:15 AM
If you can find one a ,WWII German MP40 sub machine gun is cool...
there is a suprising amount of recoil with the gun which is fun,and seriously anyone can shot this gun (view link)... you gotta laugh at this ; click on the link below:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7iz1HTh9U

Pokey
09-18-2008, 8:46 AM
The HK UMP is the worst machinegun I have ever shot. I can't say enough bad things about it. If I was HK I would hold my head in shame for releasing that piece of horse @#$% into the world.

The UMP is such a piece of crap that even if the UMP was the only machinegun legal in CA, and I could buy one right now for $3000, I wouldn't hesitate for a single second before I said no @#$%ing way. I would rather have my tenth semi-auto AR that a full auto UMP.

The MP5 on the other hand, now that machinegun should have a glowing aurora of light and music should start playing when the safe opens and the MP5 becomes visible.

Definate +1 on the UMP here, big 'ol piece of ****. Basically a badly made plastic version of an UZI (big UZI fan but not in plastic). They jump all over the place, and had 2 failures in one mag run. VERY unimpressed. If you have the money I'd go with the M16 recomendations, you can put just about any caliber on it (with an 11" 9mm upper they ROCK!)

sorensen440
09-18-2008, 9:03 AM
sounds like you already like the Thompson so I would start with that

freakshow10mm
09-18-2008, 9:12 AM
Yup, if you get your 07/02, buy an 80% Thompson receiver from Philly Ordnance and finish it out yourself. Then buy a parts kit. You'll have a full auto Thompson SMG for about a grand.

savasyn
09-18-2008, 9:33 AM
The MP5 on the other hand, now that machinegun should have a glowing aurora of light and music should start playing when the safe opens and the MP5 becomes visible.


I have no experience with the UMP, but I do have a decent amount of trigger time on an MP5 and completely agree with the statement above! :43:

6172crew
09-18-2008, 10:27 AM
I own a mini Uzi and a M16, the Uzi was 6k and the Frankford Arsenal was 10.5k, you will find that the Dias rll and rr M16 is the one everyone wants right now because of the fact you can make them run multiple calibers....rifle or pistol calibers.

As far as which sub-gun (pistol caliber) should you get? Well like some others have said, the Mac11 platform is the best deal right now but I really like the mini Uzi better, Ive shot the Thompson, the full sized Uzi as well as the mini and my M16 and if I could only have one Id pick the M16. The M16,Dias,and LL are the way to go but you can buy a fnc and a mac for the same price.

Oh the Thompson is heavy and I don't think Id have one for my first subgun but the west hurlys are a pretty good buy at 11k IMO.

snaggletooth
09-18-2008, 10:28 AM
Get a Smith & Wesson 76 also known as a Carl Gustav m45 and Swedish K as seen on "The Dark Knight" used by Joker and "Street Kings" by the Rogue Sheriff Department Deputies/nightmare. Fun stuff.

trinydex
09-18-2008, 12:43 PM
why is the mp5 better than the ump? feel? reliability?

Toolbox X
09-18-2008, 2:52 PM
why is the mp5 better than the ump? feel? reliability?

Shooting the MP5 is like driving a new Mercedes on the freeway. It's smooth, yet solid, and just feels wonderful. Shooting a UMP is like driving a 1986 Ford Ranger with a broken transmission and missing one of the rear tires, over a gravel road. The UMP is rickety and jumpy, not smooth at all, and gives you far less control, especially compared to the MP5.

Sure, they both put 9mm rounds down range, but if you rate them for feel on a scale of 1-100, the MP5 gets a 96 and the UMP gets a 23.

But that's just my opinion.

Max-the-Silent
09-18-2008, 4:28 PM
when I move back to the free world??? I shot a Thompson in vegas and loved the hell out of it so when I get back on my feet I'm going to look into getting something like it. I was thinking something in 9mm to help minimize the ammo costs.

Also what all do I have to go through to get something like that?

Unless you're a lottery winner or have a rich uncle, you're going to be limited to the lower end of transferables, meaning MAC types.

A transferable M11/9 should go for 3-4K. throw in a slow-fire upper and get the lower converted to take STEN mags and you'll be gtg.

Think this:http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=13812&query=retrieval

Plan on buying 50 or so mags, a can (Another poster metioned Tom Bowers - his M11/9 can is a good starter can) and you'll still be under 6.5K including tax stamps.

Get a Dillon 550 and stock up on components. Unless you just want something to pull out of the safe and brag about

trinydex
09-18-2008, 4:50 PM
Shooting the MP5 is like driving a new Mercedes on the freeway. It's smooth, yet solid, and just feels wonderful. Shooting a UMP is like driving a 1986 Ford Ranger with a broken transmission and missing one of the rear tires, over a gravel road. The UMP is rickety and jumpy, not smooth at all, and gives you far less control, especially compared to the MP5.

Sure, they both put 9mm rounds down range, but if you rate them for feel on a scale of 1-100, the MP5 gets a 96 and the UMP gets a 23.

But that's just my opinion.

oh so your comparison is with 9mm for both too... i thought maybe the .45 had something to do with the negative review of the ump.

anyone shot a 10mm mp5?

freakshow10mm
09-18-2008, 7:23 PM
anyone shot a 10mm mp5?
No, but my ATF agent has one. He's going to bring it up next year if he conducts my compliance visit and we are going shooting.

dexter9659
09-18-2008, 8:17 PM
If you can find one, I would get a mp5/10. Best platform I have ever used for the 10mm, and the mp5 handles the cartridge with no problems. Recoil is light-moderate, though you can up the ante by using real 10mm loads, not the new factory 10mm "light" rounds which are nothing more than long 40s+w. Plus you will get the benefit of being the cool guy with the gun no one else has.... instead of the caliboy.

If you dont or cant get the mp5/10, go with the UMP in 45. The UMP shoots just like a Thompson, and feels like an open bolt. Either one offers a no lose scenario.

CHS
09-18-2008, 10:44 PM
If you dont or cant get the mp5/10, go with the UMP in 45. The UMP shoots just like a Thompson, and feels like an open bolt. Either one offers a no lose scenario.

I've fired a .45 FA UMP. Totally disappointing. NOTHING like firing a full-auto Thompson. The firing rate feels like it's about half that of the Thompson to begin with. It also feels like it's falling apart in your hands while you're shooting it.

I hated the UMP. HATE HATE HATE.

MP5's are fun. Fast, very little, and slow muzzle rise, but not too exciting.

The most exciting gun I got to play with was a FA P90 (not PS90) fully suppressed. You don't feel a thing, and there's no muzzle flip. It's also practically silent (I was still wearing hearing protection, so I couldn't hear a thing). You pull the trigger, the gun vibrates a little, you see dirt fly up downrange, and a pile of brass starts accumulating at your feet. Seriously, it was almost creepy.

ar15barrels
09-18-2008, 10:57 PM
The most exciting gun I got to play with was a FA P90 (not PS90) fully suppressed. You don't feel a thing, and there's no muzzle flip. It's also practically silent (I was still wearing hearing protection, so I couldn't hear a thing). You pull the trigger, the gun vibrates a little, you see dirt fly up downrange, and a pile of brass starts accumulating at your feet. Seriously, it was almost creepy.

I think it's because almost all the action is behind your hand.
It's like the gun is just hanging there.
Really great functional design.
All the traditional subguns with pistol grips have the same fault of the action being up on top.

Knight
09-18-2008, 11:06 PM
If you want to get into subgun competitions, consider a Sterling Mk4.

Toolbox X
09-19-2008, 12:13 AM
As soon as they make a P90 (PS90) that shoots .22LR I will be first in line to get one. I love the 5.7 round, but OMG it is expensive to shoot. No thanks.

aplinker
09-20-2008, 11:39 AM
I'd buy an HK DIAS so it can be run in the HK94, HK91, HK93.

I'd also buy an M16 or AR DIAS. Same reason.

Flexibility is nice.