NY started issuing driver licenses with RFID

[vladbutsky]

For now it is voluntary. But it looks like a first step to test the system and reaction of the people.

http://www.nysdmv.com/edl-main.htm
http://www.nysdmv.com/broch/C158.pdf

The RFID story may look geeky, but it is not about the technology - it is about new ability to track your DL remotely by government or anyone else with appropriate equipment.

I will not be surprised if in few years this type of DL will be mandatory. Of cause there will be plenty of research and success stories and happy citizens who would prize convenience of being able easily cross borders
because convenience tracks you...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/ny-state-inserts-rfids-into-licenses-citizens-next/

[Bobula]

No biggie, I'll either buy one of these
http://www.switched.com/2008/04/02/metal-wrapped-wallet-protects-against-id-theft/

Or start wrapping my wallet in foil.

[nick]

For now it is voluntary. But it looks like a first step to test the system and reaction of the people.

http://www.nysdmv.com/edl-main.htm
http://www.nysdmv.com/broch/C158.pdf

The RFID story may look geeky, but it is not about the technology - it is about new ability to track your DL remotely by government or anyone else with appropriate equipment.

I will not be surprised if in few years this type of DL will be mandatory. Of cause there will be plenty of research and success stories and happy citizens who would prize convenience of being able easily cross borders
because convenience tracks you...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/ny-state-inserts-rfids-into-licenses-citizens-next/


The interesting part is that RFID has no viable built-in security, and anyone with a scanner can read your DL/CC/whatever else has it. Doesn't seem to bother anyone in the government though. They just look you straight in the eye and lie about how secure they "feel" it is :)

[technique]

Maybe now when I forget mine at the bar (like i always do) I can get it back.

[ryno066]

So no one is looking at the pictures? What stops someone from stealing one and walking into the US. Seems it makes us less safe not more. ………But what do I know, the Government hasn’t told me what to think on this yet. I’ll be waiting by the phone for them.

[bulgron]

There is an answer for every little problem in life.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.01/start.html?pg=9

[56Chevy]

There is an answer for every little problem in life.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.01/start.html?pg=9
If the hammer doesn't work, then use a bigger hammer.:D

[bulgron]

If the hammer doesn't work, then use a bigger hammer.:D

Given that this is CalGuns, maybe the right answer is to "accidentally" drop an ammo can (full of the caliber of your choice) on your RFID-enabled drivers license or passport. Repeat this accident as necessary..... ;)

[Nemo]

Arrrgh. Time to fish my passport outta its tinfoil and take a hammer to it!

[GenLee]

No biggie, I'll either buy one of these
http://www.switched.com/2008/04/02/metal-wrapped-wallet-protects-against-id-theft/

Or start wrapping my wallet in foil.

I am so getting one of these, I wish they made a hat to match. :TFH:

[Sutcliffe]

It would be a lot more colorful and entertaining to simply tatoo 'Jew', 'Homosexual', 'Athiest' or 'Mental Defective' on people. It's worked before.

[tgriffin]

The interesting part is that RFID has no viable built-in security, and anyone with a scanner can read your DL/CC/whatever else has it. Doesn't seem to bother anyone in the government though. They just look you straight in the eye and lie about how secure they "feel" it is :)

I dont know where you are getting your information, but that is factually incorrect. RFID does have encryption technology & practices built into the specification. Like any security, it can be broken, but without the right interrogation frequency/signal/encryption, the RFID tags will not reciprocate with their stored information. Oh and for the size tag that can fit in a DL, wanna know how much info they can fit on there? Probably just the DL number.

Granted, security/encryption is alot stronger with an active (battery powered, read: not fitting in a DL) tag versus a passive tag... but the trade off is that the passive tags CAN NOT be interrogated from long range. With current technology (I'm very familiar with RFID because of work), any RFID tag that could be feasibly integrated with a DL has an interrogation range of about 1 foot reliably with serious signal degradation from there until about 2 feet and NO functionality past that.

RFID is no magic James Bond #%$&.... the technology isnt there yet, at least not commercially, and the technology has SERIOUS limitations. For example, the tag itself is extremely fragile for the size & thickness necessary for integration with a DL. Any bending, heat, magnetism, impact with severally hinder if not disable the tag completely.

The sky isn't falling here folks.

[mrjones98]

You're assuming that the 'security' that is implemented is being done by competent folks.

Just stick it in the microwave for a little bit, that should 'fix' it.

[56Chevy]

Given that this is CalGuns, maybe the right answer is to "accidentally" drop an ammo can (full of the caliber of your choice) on your RFID-enabled drivers license or passport. Repeat this accident as necessary..... ;)
Don't drop it too far. You may damage the ammo!

[cadurand]

I don't understand where the beenfit is. If the range is roughly 12 inches or less what is the advantage of RFID over the current data strip on the backs of most ID's?

How hard is it to swipe you ID through a reader compared to waving it over the reader?

I think this is all part of the RealID Act though, right? I bet, eventually, if you try to enter a federal building and your RFID isn't working there will be some questions.

For the RFID expert who posted here. How durable are these things? Can they wear out? Seems like they don't have any moving parts so they probably last a while.

[bulgron]

For the RFID expert who posted here. How durable are these things?

It sounds like the durability of these things is inversely proportional to how clumsy you are handling your ammo cans. :D

[Waingro]

It would make ID's more expensive to forge. Thus stopping teens getting fake ID's and terrorists getting fake ID's (it happened in Die Hard, the same guy who had a Glock 7)

[Fjold]

I dont know where you are getting your information, but that is factually incorrect. RFID does have encryption technology & practices built into the specification. Like any security, it can be broken, but without the right interrogation frequency/signal/encryption, the RFID tags will not reciprocate with their stored information. Oh and for the size tag that can fit in a DL, wanna know how much info they can fit on there? Probably just the DL number.

Granted, security/encryption is alot stronger with an active (battery powered, read: not fitting in a DL) tag versus a passive tag... but the trade off is that the passive tags CAN NOT be interrogated from long range. With current technology (I'm very familiar with RFID because of work), any RFID tag that could be feasibly integrated with a DL has an interrogation range of about 1 foot reliably with serious signal degradation from there until about 2 feet and NO functionality past that.

RFID is no magic James Bond #%$&.... the technology isnt there yet, at least not commercially, and the technology has SERIOUS limitations. For example, the tag itself is extremely fragile for the size & thickness necessary for integration with a DL. Any bending, heat, magnetism, impact with severally hinder if not disable the tag completely.

The sky isn't falling here folks.


Stop interjecting facts into the paranoia!

There are thousands of American workers slaving away in the aluminum foil industry across this great nation who's welfare depends upon it.

[pnkssbtz]

I dont know where you are getting your information, but that is factually incorrect. RFID does have encryption technology & practices built into the specification. Like any security, it can be broken, but without the right interrogation frequency/signal/encryption, the RFID tags will not reciprocate with their stored information. Oh and for the size tag that can fit in a DL, wanna know how much info they can fit on there? Probably just the DL number.

Granted, security/encryption is alot stronger with an active (battery powered, read: not fitting in a DL) tag versus a passive tag... but the trade off is that the passive tags CAN NOT be interrogated from long range. With current technology (I'm very familiar with RFID because of work), any RFID tag that could be feasibly integrated with a DL has an interrogation range of about 1 foot reliably with serious signal degradation from there until about 2 feet and NO functionality past that.

RFID is no magic James Bond #%$&.... the technology isnt there yet, at least not commercially, and the technology has SERIOUS limitations. For example, the tag itself is extremely fragile for the size & thickness necessary for integration with a DL. Any bending, heat, magnetism, impact with severally hinder if not disable the tag completely.

The sky isn't falling here folks.
First, even if the information is encrypted, the tag itself can be read passively up to 600 feet away.

Assuming the smart move, and to not having any sensitive data on the chip itself and instead having a hash that gets checked against a central data base combined with some other data provided by the owner (turning the RFID chip device into a glorified dongle), this value would still be unique, and allow for someone to track a SPECIFIC person to within inches of their position through radio triangulation.


The second concern with RFID's is "tag cloning" whereby you do not attempt to decrypt the data, and instead simply clone it. Again, you can do this from up to 600' away. With identity theft, do I even need to go into this in detail on this?


The third concern pertaining to data integrity, given the capacity for 512kb to 4096kb of storage (The latter for active RFID tags), once the data has been cloned, accessing the data (depending on the encryption scheme) is possible with a brute force approach.

[CABilly]

Duct tape wallet should do the trick.

[pnkssbtz]

Duct tape wallet should do the trick.

I like the hammer mentioned in the wired article =P

[ChibiPaw]

RF cards are common in japan and most asian countries. and many people carry multiple cards. what its also very common is that you can buy these $2 sleeves called "skim protector" basically they're metal laced plastic pages you can sandwich to your cards to you can control which side gets scanned, or completely protect again being scanned. sometimes one would use a commuter card for one train and another train would be cheaper using another card. so yo dont want the wrong card being scanned.. I have a feeling those little skim protectors will start to sell well here too.

Also as another guy said before in this thread. just stick it in the 'wave and you're safe.

[Doheny]

How could they see where you are when your wallet is in your hip pocket and you're sitting on it, driving down the road in a tin can (car)?

[pnkssbtz]

RF cards are common in japan and most asian countries. and many people carry multiple cards. what its also very common is that you can buy these $2 sleeves called "skim protector" basically they're metal laced plastic pages you can sandwich to your cards to you can control which side gets scanned, or completely protect again being scanned. sometimes one would use a commuter card for one train and another train would be cheaper using another card. so yo dont want the wrong card being scanned.. I have a feeling those little skim protectors will start to sell well here too.

Also as another guy said before in this thread. just stick it in the 'wave and you're safe.
Wired article mentioned that they will burst into flames...

Plus my own experience from microwaving metal confirms this.

[sfwdiy]

First, even if the information is encrypted, the tag itself can be read passively up to 600 feet away.

Source? I'm having a hard time swallowing that one.

[leelaw]

MARK OF THE BEAS.... ah, who am I kidding.

[MrSigmaDOT40]

If you haven't found out yet, that RFID tech is going into CA id's and DL's I hear, or in the new National ID Card (Can I see your Papers? WHERE ARE YOUR PAPERS!!!!). After they get you use to that then you will get the Veri Chip implant (look it up) that will do away with Id's and Papaer/Coin Money. Revelations in the Bible, read it.

[MrTuffPaws]

A small tap with a hammer is all you need to destroy an RFID.

[tgriffin]

First, even if the information is encrypted, the tag itself can be read passively up to 600 feet away. BULL@#$% & FUD. The passive tags 3 times the size of a DL dont have that kinda range, most ACTIVE tags dont have that kinda range. Show me one white paper claiming that or you are flat WRONG

Assuming the smart move, and to not having any sensitive data on the chip itself and instead having a hash that gets checked against a central data base combined with some other data provided by the owner (turning the RFID chip device into a glorified dongle), this value would still be unique, and allow for someone to track a SPECIFIC person to within inches of their position through radio triangulation. BULL@#$% again. THEY DONT HAVE THAT KIND OF TRANSMITION RANGE.


The second concern with RFID's is "tag cloning" whereby you do not attempt to decrypt the data, and instead simply clone it. Again, you can do this from up to 600' away. With identity theft, do I even need to go into this in detail on this? Semi legitamate concern, BUT the antenna AGAIN would have to be sending the correct signal to get the tag to reciprocate with its information, which wont be encoded (the tags dont have enough data storage for anything other than a simple replacement cipher). Do you even know how RFID works?


The third concern pertaining to data integrity, given the capacity for 512kb to 4096kb of storage (The latter for active RFID tags), once the data has been cloned, accessing the data (depending on the encryption scheme) is possible with a brute force approach. Oh jesus christ, will you please stop with the FUD? good lord a tag the size to fit on a DL will have about 4kb, NOT 512kb. Both of those stats are ACTIVE tag size figures. Prove me otherwise

*Bangs head furiously against wall*

[tgriffin]

I don't understand where the beenfit is. If the range is roughly 12 inches or less what is the advantage of RFID over the current data strip on the backs of most ID's?

How hard is it to swipe you ID through a reader compared to waving it over the reader?

I think this is all part of the RealID Act though, right? I bet, eventually, if you try to enter a federal building and your RFID isn't working there will be some questions.

For the RFID expert who posted here. How durable are these things? Can they wear out? Seems like they don't have any moving parts so they probably last a while.

I'm not sure what advantage they are looking to have other than secondary verification of authenticity. They are extremely fragile with metal/bi-metal antennas that if even slightly damaged severly hinder their operation. The tags themselves only have a shelf life of a couple years, in a production enviroment of tagged assets we are replacing dead tags quarterly.

[pnkssbtz]

http://www.rfidradio.com/?p=25
Thank you for that Harold. It’s been an exciting week. It started off with a bang with a Wall Street Journal article about us if you didn’t happen to catch that. The momentum built throughout the weekend. We kicked off the presentations on Thursday and by the time we gave the first demonstration, reading a tag from 300 feet away which is half of our distance capability actually, 600 feet, it was an exciting moment. We gave out little binoculars so people could see the banner on the far wall. It was a lot of fun. There was a lot of energy at the show. And we were glad to be part of it.

For the rest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rfid


There are still legitimate concerns for RFID. They aren't as big as they once were, as the people working on RFID are trying to resolve them, but the issues still stand.

Mobile speed passes have been hacked and cracked and abused. CC cards have been stolen and used by clever uses of social engineerning (putting a card reader on top of the actual card reader at a gas station pump).

[Vectrexer]

For now it is voluntary. But it looks like a first step to test the system and reaction of the people.

http://www.nysdmv.com/edl-main.htm
http://www.nysdmv.com/broch/C158.pdf

The RFID story may look geeky, but it is not about the technology - it is about new ability to track your DL remotely by government or anyone else with appropriate equipment.

I will not be surprised if in few years this type of DL will be mandatory. Of cause there will be plenty of research and success stories and happy citizens who would prize convenience of being able easily cross borders
because convenience tracks you...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/ny-state-inserts-rfids-into-licenses-citizens-next/

This is the reason microwave ovens were invented. 1-2 seconds then, DING! ID Cooking complete! ;)

[anthonyca]

Has anyone heard of this?http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog/?cat=39

The real ID also passed in California and Arnie has a chance to veto it but I haven't heard anything about this as most people have not.
Better have your "papers".

[CA_Libertarian]

Here's a "white paper" on RFID myths (from http://www.itaa.org/upload/RFID/RFID_Myths_Legends.pdf):

An RFID tag has no awareness of geographical data, unlike expensive Global Positioning System technology, which is capable of providing continuous and accurate geographical data. Passive RFID tags, like those used in supply chain and identity applications, transmits, when queried, a unique identifier within a close range of 10 to 30 feet of a reader. Outside of that range, the tags do not emit a signal. The result is a closed system. Ubiquitous “Big Brother” surveillance around the world would require billions and billions of readers and antennas within 10 to 30 feet of a tag as well as open access to the data associated with or stored in the tag.

What the white paper's writer(s) fail to recognize, is that most people move in easily predicted patterns, and most of us use 10-to-30 foot wide 'bottlenecks' to travel everywhere we go. These are called "roads." They wouldn't need 'billions of readers' spaced 30 feet apart... just one at each key intersection. If you pass within 30 feet of a reader it will log your DL # and catalog your travel through that area. Pass through 4 readers on your way to work, and your route can easily be extrapolated.

Those of you that think this is all a bunch of :TFH: baloney... take a look at the tops of your traffic control (stop light) poles and the light poles along the streets. The other day I was stuck at a light and got bored. I counted 6 cameras pointing at the intersection... and that's just what I could see through my windows (no sun/moon roof). Made me wonder: 'how many cameras does the city of Modesto (pop. ~200,000) operate, and why?'

Maybe they were put up with benign intentions, but what's to stop the powers that be from using the cameras to keep tabs on you? We already know that the software exists to have these cameras isolate and log license plates of passing cars (already heavily implemented in London). I don't have any evidence to show they're doing this now, just pondering what would stop them from doing it?

[anthonyca]

Here's a "white paper" on RFID myths (from http://www.itaa.org/upload/RFID/RFID_Myths_Legends.pdf):



What the white paper's writer(s) fail to recognize, is that most people move in easily predicted patterns, and most of us use 10-to-30 foot wide 'bottlenecks' to travel everywhere we go. These are called "roads." They wouldn't need 'billions of readers' spaced 30 feet apart... just one at each key intersection. If you pass within 30 feet of a reader it will log your DL # and catalog your travel through that area. Pass through 4 readers on your way to work, and your route can easily be extrapolated.

Those of you that think this is all a bunch of :TFH: baloney... take a look at the tops of your traffic control (stop light) poles and the light poles along the streets. The other day I was stuck at a light and got bored. I counted 6 cameras pointing at the intersection... and that's just what I could see through my windows (no sun/moon roof). Made me wonder: 'how many cameras does the city of Modesto (pop. ~200,000) operate, and why?'

Maybe they were put up with benign intentions, but what's to stop the powers that be from using the cameras to keep tabs on you? We already know that the software exists to have these cameras isolate and log license plates of passing cars (already heavily implemented in London). I don't have any evidence to show they're doing this now, just pondering what would stop them from doing it?

There is nothing that I know of stopping them from doing this. There is alot of evidence that we are heading toward this.

[pnkssbtz]

+1 to CA_Libertarian and anthonyca.


There are LEGITIMATE concerns to RFID use. And banging your head on the table, posting with ascii-characters, demanding white papers on everything won't change this fact.



RFID in itself are not bad. It is the potential for misuse and abuse that is so dangerous.