Questions about carrying at home.

[DJ Skillz]

Okay, so I regularly carry when I'm in my apartment, either in a regular holster or concealed IWB holster.

First of all, I will occasionally go out on the patio to have a cigarette, go to my storage closet or to bbq. The patio is open and in clear view of the parking lot.
Is it legal to carry on my patio?

Second question. I have a detached garage, about 50 feet down a hallway outside my apartment. I will regularly walk to and from the garage to get tools or whatever.

Would the detached garage be considered part of my home?
If so, would it matter if the door were open or closed?
What about the 50ft walk to the garage?

Oh, and my apartment is in a school zone.

[VAHEVAHE]

Okay, so I regularly carry when I'm in my apartment, either in a regular holster or concealed IWB holster.

First of all, I will occasionally go out on the patio to have a cigarette, go to my storage closet or to bbq. The patio is open and in clear view of the parking lot.
Is it legal to carry on my patio?

Second question. I have a detached garage, about 50 feet down a hallway outside my apartment. I will regularly walk to and from the garage to get tools or whatever.

Would the detached garage be considered part of my home?
If so, would it matter if the door were open or closed?
What about the 50ft walk to the garage?

Oh, and my apartment is in a school zone.

Unless you get consent from the owner of the property (written consent is recommended) then you cannot carry anywhere that is a common area that a regular person can walk on. You CANNOT go down to get your mail you CANNOT get tools from your garage. Regarding your patio you didn't make it clear how it is setup so i cannot comment on that.

[5968]

My understanding of the law is what Vahevahe has stated above.

[Liberty1]

As long as the apt. is not within the school grounds you're ok (see 626.9 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/626-626.11.html) PC)

On your balcony, which is not in any way a public place (so long as you're not 417 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/403-420.1.html) PC) is clearly ok (read PC 12026 and PC 12031 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html))

IMO (keep that in mind) concealed or open on the apt common property is OK but if it is open to the public (as in not a secured area) you may fall into "Overturf" (http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html) case law territory and not be able to legally have the firearm loaded.

check out

What is loaded in Ca? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)

and

californiaopencarry.org (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/)

and

opencarry.org (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/)


just read it is a patio not a balcony...

[BillCA]

VAHEVAHE is correct.

If your patio is fenced off, even if the fence is just 3 ft high, it's considered a private area. Your apartment is okay and any fenced or gated patio/balcony is okay. But not the hallways, walkways, laundry room, etc.

Inside your garage is probably okay, but not loaded carry on that 50-ft walk between the apt and garage.


Unless you get consent from the owner of the property (written consent is recommended) then you cannot carry anywhere that is a common area...

In California, due to liability issues, the odds of getting permission from the property owner (not just the property manager) are somewhere between slim & none.

[DJ Skillz]

Okay, that's what I figured as far as the common areas.

But what about carrying inside the garage?
If the firearm was legally transported to the garage and I was.. say.. working on my car or something, with the garage door either open or closed.

As far as the patio, only one side open, and has a 4-foot tall wooden fence separating it from the common area walkway and parking lot. It's pretty much just like any other apartment patio..

[DJ Skillz]

Wow. Lots of responses before I could even finish writing that last post.

The patio is on the first floor, so it's not really a balcony.. I just want to make sure that doesn't fall into the "overturf"

[Liberty1]

Unless you get consent from the owner of the property (written consent is recommended) then you cannot carry anywhere that is a common area that a regular person can walk on. You CANNOT go down to get your mail you CANNOT get tools from your garage. Regarding your patio you didn't make it clear how it is setup so i cannot comment on that.

Citation please. And I'm assuming your talking about concealed only and not loaded since if it is not a public place then 12031 doesn't even apply (permission or not).

[Liberty1]

Wow. Lots of responses before I could even finish writing that last post.

The patio is on the first floor, so it's not really a balcony.. I just want to make sure that doesn't fall into the "overturf"

Closing it off would perhaps help with any 12031 issues. Hard to speculate (as that is all we're doing - don't take any of this as legal advice) without seeing the whole place.

Obviously, CC will draw less attention, in an apt. complex. Also read the fine print on your lease.

[CA_Libertarian]

Unless you get consent from the owner of the property (written consent is recommended) then you cannot carry anywhere that is a common area that a regular person can walk on. You CANNOT go down to get your mail you CANNOT get tools from your garage. Regarding your patio you didn't make it clear how it is setup so i cannot comment on that.

I'm interested to see your source for this. I've studied the statutes and case laws vigorously for over a year and not found anything like this. The closest thing I have found is an exemption to 12031 (loaded firearm) when you are lawfully on private property. This means that unless you are trespassing or committing some other such property-intrusive crime you could theoretically possess a loaded firearm.

The tricky part of the 'private property" and 'place of business' exemptions to 12031 (loaded firearm) is the wording. The exemption to 12031 - found in subsection (h) - only applies to "having" a loaded weapon. In People v Overturf, the court ruled that this does not permit the "carrying" of loaded firearms.

references:

12031 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=63054718250+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve). (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.


12031. (h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property.

EDIT: Corrected an error and removed some info covered in posts that showed up while I was typing.

[CA_Libertarian]

Closing it off would perhaps help with any 12031 issues. Hard to speculate (as that is all we're doing - don't take any of this as legal advice) without seeing the whole place.

The logical rule would be: can any person off the street walk up onto your patio. If it's like 99% of apartment buildings, it's enclosed by a 4' wall. If there is no gate - or a gate that is kept locked at all times, I would say that's 100% not public access.

The rule of thumb I've often heard quoted is if someone can walk up without jumping a fence or going through a locked gate/door then it's public access. This includes front/back yards, enclosed porches that aren't kept locked, and your garage when the door is open.

[E Pluribus Unum]

The rule of thumb I've often heard quoted is if someone can walk up without jumping a fence or going through a locked gate/door then it's public access. This includes front/back yards, enclosed porches that aren't kept locked, and your garage when the door is open.

Doesn't make much sense. I can carry loaded and concealed in my home with the door wide open.

I can carry loaded and concealed, or open loaded in my front lawn, across the street from a school if I want to.

[SOneThreeCoupe]

My complex has a rule of no firearms in sight.

If you have them cased, or are carrying inside your apartment, they don't care, but if you're on the patio where others can see you, you get evicted.

You might want to check the provisions of your lease so you don't end up having to shop for another apartment.

[megavolt121]

Okay, that's what I figured as far as the common areas.

But what about carrying inside the garage?
If the firearm was legally transported to the garage and I was.. say.. working on my car or something, with the garage door either open or closed.


Does your lease state exactly which enclosed garage is yours? If so, then you're in a better position regardless if the door is open or closed as this is unarguably part of your residence.

In terms of common sense, I'd conceal it. You don't need the neighbors to freak out and have you deal with the cops and you don't need your neighbors to know you have guns so idiots won't try to go gun shopping in your apt.

[CA_Libertarian]

... I can carry loaded and concealed in my home with the door wide open.

I can carry loaded and concealed, or open loaded in my front lawn, across the street from a school if I want to.

See People v Overturf. He was carrying a loaded weapon in his front yard and was convicted under 12031. IIRC, his home was also the 'office' for the small apartment complex he lived in, so it was also his place of business.

I don't think the legislature intended 12031 to be applied to private property, but the courts tend to disregard legislative intent when they really wanna nail a guy to the wall.

[E Pluribus Unum]

See People v Overturf. He was carrying a loaded weapon in his front yard and was convicted under 12031. IIRC, his home was also the 'office' for the small apartment complex he lived in, so it was also his place of business.

I don't think the legislature intended 12031 to be applied to private property, but the courts tend to disregard legislative intent when they really wanna nail a guy to the wall.

I am not talking about an apartment complex. In an apartment complex, the "front lawn" is communal.

I am saying in my home that I own, or that I am renting I can open carry or conceal a loaded firearm while anywhere on that private property, including the front lawn. Even if I am across the street from a school.

I know this because I was once served an eviction notice by a landlord because it was a "condition of the lease that no firearms be present at any time." And the landlord came out to fix the air conditioning unit and saw my gun case. I looked in the lease and sure enough.... it said "No firearms or other deadly weapons". I decided to go to the eviction hearing and the judge denied it. He said the landlord had no ability to restrict private ownership of legal firearms even if it was specified in the lease agreement.