Is it legal for an LEO to order you to stop recording? (Video of incident included)

[USN CHIEF]

Well, I made a thread on the drama that we had at the Broke Back Mountain shoot yesterday but here is a legal question.

Can an LEO (Border Patrol Agent) legally order you to stop recording the conversation with him/her?

PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO AN LEO BASHING THREAD. I respect what LEO's do just wanted to know if it is legal for them to do this. This took place at BLM land in San Diego County.

The below is a second video that was shot by Someone Else while I was talking to the Border Patrol Agent. I am the dude with the green shirt drinking water. Someone else is working on the first video that was shot.

GAYzgrlZbqU[/QUOTE]

[Ironchef]

I think I've read here somewhere that LEO's have no expectation of privacy in any public place. So with that, I don't believe they can command you to stop recording audio or video. I'm sure we'll have a full layout soon from Liberty1 with pertinent code and case law... :)

[bohoki]

I think I've read here somewhere that LEO's have no expectation of privacy in any public place. So with that, I don't believe they can command you to stop recording audio or video. I'm sure we'll have a full layout soon from Liberty1 with pertinent code and case law... :)


yea i think they can only ask you to move along ("for their safety" i assume from litigation)

[spsellars]

It's an old article, but it touches on this -

Link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/197814_copfilming02.html)

[Annie Oakley]

OMG, why would he worry about a camera ? Is he doing something wrong ? I think I would welcome it if I was doing my job.

[USN CHIEF]

OMG, why would he worry about a camera ? Is he doing something wrong ? I think I would welcome it if I was doing my job.

This Border Patrol Agent seemed very clueless and he was telling us that we should find a different hobby and all that was capture with our first encounter with him. Like I said, the other video should be up today with more FUD being spread by this same Border Patrol Agent.

[Ironchef]

How far were you from the border itself?

[USN CHIEF]

Ironchef, we were approximately 3 or 4 miles north of the Border.

[Annie Oakley]

This Border Patrol Agent seemed very clueless and he was telling us that we should find a different hobby and all that was capture with our first encounter with him. Like I said, the other video should be up today with more FUD being spread by this same Border Patrol Agent.

I don't like bashing police because I think they have a really tough job. My husband was an MP and he told me stories about some of his days. But, if you guys weren't doing anything illegal, who is he to tell you to find another hobby ? That's just terrible.

[USN CHIEF]

I don't like bashing police because I think they have a really tough job. My husband was an MP and he told me stories about some of his days. But, if you guys weren't doing anything illegal, who is he to tell you to find another hobby ? That's just terrible.

I feel the same way as you and many others, I also respect LEO's but this guy seemed out of line and I would like to know if there is something that can be done. I will let the video first video that has not been posted yet speak for itself, I believe that all the audio was captured when he was telling us the stuff about us finding a different hobby.

[Annie Oakley]

I feel the same way as you and many others, I also respect LEO's but this guy seemed out of line and I would like to know if there is something that can be done. I will let the video first video that has not been posted yet speak for itself, I believe that all the audio was captured when he was telling us the stuff about us finding a different hobby.

OMG, I think I'll just stay up here and away from Border Patrol guys.

[clee2]

In a public place, with no expectation of privacy, the courts will side with an officer ordering somebody to stop filming/recording if that person has entered a crime scene or cordoned off area. Also, officers can order somebody to stop recording if it can be articulated (to the courts) that the person recording was creating an officer safety issue by their presence or recording activities.

This did not seem to be the case in the video above, but I don't know what was in the mind of the BP agent at the time of contact, and I am not going to second guess an officer in the field unless I'm there and my butt's on the line too.

[Annie Oakley]

I hope I'm not being judgemental, because I don't mean to be, but if Chief and his friends were doing something wrong, wouldn't there be more police ? All I saw was one guy and I think it was chief who had a gun in his holster, and the Border Patrol guy was just standing there. Everyone seemed pretty calm and the Border Patrol guy didn't like the camera. Wouldn't a policeman be more concerned about guns, than about a camera? I'm not an expert in these things, so am I not seeing something ?

[sorensen440]

Legally speaking I don't think there's anything illegal if he wants to tell you to sing him a song wearing a pink dress

Now do you legaly have to comply ? I think not.

[clee2]

Border Patrol, like many Highway Patrolmen, work alone with their nearest fill officers miles away when the SHTF. So, it would not be uncommon for an officer to be alone in the boonies (my hat's off to them).

So with that, I agree the camera appeared to be the most benign aspect of the encounter, but officers have to take in everything around them for tactics and survival. It's called totality of the circumstances.

You are right, on it's face, I still don't understand why the officer focused on the camera either. But I wasn't there.

[Cali80]

Chief, hydrate!!
You were chuggin that bottle like no other!

I would have told the officer to find another job.
Maybe he thinks he should be the only one armed?

This guys a rookie who give other BPOs a bad name.

[domokun]

Camera shut off = no evidence in the event he screws up and makes a mistake (either through what he said or what he did) that would get him into trouble.

[clee2]

Camera shut off = no evidence in the event he screws up and makes a mistake (either through what he said or what he did) that would get him into trouble.

Just a question.....how do you know the officer didn't have his camera system on?

[Nefarious]

Just a question.....how do you know the officer didn't have his camera system on?

Even if he did... what his camera sees and my camera see ...well... could be two different things.

[USN CHIEF]

Chief, hydrate!!
You were chuggin that bottle like no other!

.

Bro, tell me about it:eek::D

About an hour before he arrived we had just returned from setting up the targets at the direction that the BP agent told us. Me and a few other Cal Gunners walked down and up this huge mountain carrying 80lbs steel targets over rough terrain and I should have listen to a fellow Cal Gunner that told me to take some water with me, by the time that I got back I taught I was going to pass out.:D

[saigon1965]

Here's some fun stuff for you Chief -

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=120951

[zatoh]

Hey Chief! That guy was paying way too much attention to you...look at the people he missed making a run for it:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2860798772_0cd719e061.jpg?v=0

Or were you trying to create a "distraction"?

[nobody_special]

I would consider filing a formal complaint.

[hoffmang]

He can ask you to turn it off but you are under no obligation whatsoever to comply. In public, recording is an opposite and equally protected version of freedom of speech - the freedom to listen.

He'd have a very hard time making an officer safety argument with you strapped on in the video :43:

-Gene

[M. Sage]

Keep the camera rolling. Why did he even stop by in the first place?

Border Patrol, like many Highway Patrolmen, work alone with their nearest fill officers miles away when the SHTF. So, it would not be uncommon for an officer to be alone in the boonies (my hat's off to them).

Lone officers = fewer sustained complaints of police misconduct, believe it or not.

[SJgunguy24]

The blue line fades when a LEO lets personal feelings and beliefs cloud thier judgement. It's a tough job and cops are people. But save the lecture for someone else. The law is what we follow. "I think" or "you shouldn't" is an opinion, I don't really care what thier opinion is.

[HowardW56]

It's an old article, but it touches on this -

Link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/197814_copfilming02.html)

But the old article will lead you to a 24 page published opinion of the 9th Circuit...

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/0A139FEFFACCACD588256F0000828E40/$file/0335057.pdf?openelement

[packnrat]

why should any leo be afrade of getting his picture taken..as he is not breaking a law..is he??

and no i am not saying this to bash anyone.

if we should not fear talking to the cops, then why should they be afrade of us video taping the encounter..they do it.

as to lieing to a cop, he should also not lie to me.

one should treat others, as they want to be treated.


:TFH:

.

[ptoguy2002]

So where is the rest of the video?

edit - just read the other thread, you turned it off?

[Liberty1]

. I'm sure we'll have a full layout soon from Liberty1 with pertinent code and case law... :)

Not much I can add in the way of citations or code. Video/Audio Taping a conversation in a public area where there is no expectation of privacy is not prohibited in California to my knowledge (other state do criminalize it I think). If it is not prohibited it is legal. 1st Amendment case law is also not my specialty.

Sounds like he gave an order. If it was an order then it was without the force of law IMO. You could make a complaint.

Officers can exclude people (even media) from a crime investigation scene and disobeying a lawful order to leave is a crime. I guess the whole of our southern border could be considered a crime scene:p.

[King$nake]

This Border Patrol Agent seemed very clueless and he was telling us that we should find a different hobby


pfffft. that makes me so mad. Should've told him to find another job.

[tyrist]

Nope not illegal unless you are inside of a crime scene or interfering.

[Sobriquet]

I think you just made him nervous, Chief. That guy didn't eat his Wheaties growing up. He looks 4' 2".

[CCWFacts]

Of course they can order you to stop! There are two conditions which give them that authority:


You're video taping them doing something they shouldn't be doing
"The terrorism"


Edit: they were able to get that pulled from YouTube so here's another copy of it: "The terrorism" (http://www.mahalo.com/Cop_Parks_in_Front_of_Fire_Hydrant)

[USN CHIEF]

I don't know, the way he had his second chance vest on the outside of his shirt reminded me of that one cop from Reno 911 that always wears his vest outside of the shirt... LOL.

By the time that the supervisor arrived they were all pretty cool with the exception of that one, he was still acting weird and holding the butt of his gun while the other ones were mingling and shooting the **** with us.

[dwtt]

After that incident with Rodney King in LA, many cops don't want to be video taped.

[retired]

When I worked traffic control at the Rose Parade many years ago, I was photographed by some guy who pulled up in a car at a red light, got out and snapped a pic of me. No big deal. I even asked him if he was able to see my name tag.:D

[Moonclip]

After that incident with Rodney King in LA, many cops don't want to be video taped.

What they want and what is legally permissable may be two different things.

[tenpercentfirearms]

"The terrorism"
[/LIST]

Edit: they were able to get that pulled from YouTube so here's another copy of it: "The terrorism" (http://www.mahalo.com/Cop_Parks_in_Front_of_Fire_Hydrant)

HOLLY CRAP! If you haven't watched that video, please do. That is awesome. Although I would never do such a thing, I really like his response to the woman who comes out and chastizes him. Awesome!

[Fate]

I really like his response to the woman who comes out and chastizes him. Awesome!Yeah he was handling her well until he dropped the "C-bomb." *The Terrorism link is good, but there is some "NYC language."

[grammaton76]

I think part of the camera issue is that you feel like you're being "muzzle swept" when you're in the center of a camera's focus.

I believe I'd film with him in the outside - if you were filming over to the side, and not pointing directly at him, he may have assumed you're only filming Chief and not gotten as hostile.

Regardless, I always think LEOs do huge damage to their reputation when they order folks to stop filming. It always comes off as trying to hide something, and it would be nice if the LEOs in question understood just how underhanded they look when they try to order it.

[CCWFacts]

HOLLY CRAP! If you haven't watched that video, please do. That is awesome. Although I would never do such a thing, I really like his response to the woman who comes out and chastizes him. Awesome!

Basically, you can see from this the on-the-ground reality of the domestic War on Terror. It's being used as a handy excuse to bully the peons (us) and to excuse inexcusable misconduct. You see that in action every time you fly and get yelled at and threatened by TSA agents, and you see it in this clip where "the terrorism" is an excuse for parking in front of a fire hydrant while getting a donut.

[AaronHorrocks]

I think part of the camera issue is that you feel like you're being "muzzle swept" when you're in the center of a camera's focus.

+1

With the new smaller all black radarguns CHPs have I've had my heart stop beating on several occasions when they're behind thier crusier and have that thing pointed at me. :eek: Almost swerved to avoid getting shot at. The view of the world changes after people have tried to kill you.

[jamesob]

when i was a police officer i was recorded a few times. the short answer is "no" they cannot keep you from recording unless, it is keeping them from doing their job wich is unlikely.

[Ironchef]

I think part of the camera issue is that you feel like you're being "muzzle swept" when you're in the center of a camera's focus.

I believe I'd film with him in the outside - if you were filming over to the side, and not pointing directly at him, he may have assumed you're only filming Chief and not gotten as hostile.

Regardless, I always think LEOs do huge damage to their reputation when they order folks to stop filming. It always comes off as trying to hide something, and it would be nice if the LEOs in question understood just how underhanded they look when they try to order it.

It just occurred to me how alike we are, cops and civilians being interviewed. By that I mean that when we are interviewed by cops, we're often accused of hiding something if we show the least amount of lawful resistance. And on the other hand, if we're lawfully filming a cop, we should assume he's hiding something too...proof of possible misconduct if the cop has commanded us to stop filming.

It'd be fun to be the test case by saying "I respectfully decline to stop filming you citing my 1st amendment right to do so in this public locale which is not interfering with your duties nor presenting any safety issue to you. Are you nervous that I'm going to film your misconduct? You don't have anything to HIDE do you?" *bam! smack! pow! pepper spray! cuffed!*

[Guntech]

They have no expectation of privacy in public; see Rodney King.

[REDHORSE]

Well some of us may have seen this year old+ RidleyReport (http://www.youtube.com/user/RidleyReport) video (a lot of Open Carry issue vids). Where this blogger/journalist gets stopped and questioned for his legal Open Carry in NH. He is usually the one with the camera, but this time he is the center of attention of the Police.

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Dave Ridley has been in many situations where LEOs, Gov, State, & City Employees have asked him to put his camera down. He has a polite way of explaining to them that he will not comply with that order and continues recording the situations. Take a look at his vidoes and you'll see how he handles it.

I know NH does not = CA, but the laws & rights may be different.

What I'm also getting at, they have a hotline phone number (aka PORC 411) they use to call in situations where their people can use to get news out "live" to the rest of the members. Somehow, when you call this number... it can be setup to stream and/or record your phone call and stream it over the Internet to their subscribers.

A similar CG.net hotline number can be beneficial for CG.net members that are in a similar situation that is newsworthy to the rest of the members.

May be a good way to protect evidence from being confiscated, 'lost', distorted, misrepresented, etc.. Once it's online, it will be very difficult to suppress the evidence.

Of course this feature will be Moderated and only important situations would be allowed to be streamed, so that the line won't be abused.

I'm not LEO Bashing, just talking about a feature/tool that can be beneficial to CG.net or ordinary law bidding 2A members.

If not in an official CG.net capacity, but maybe some thing the members here can work together to make this a reality.

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[Two Shots]

The BP was more worried about the camera then the fact that everyone had weapons and he was alone with armed people in the desert.
Chief, Next time get a guy with a beat up 4x4 to go with you. So you don't need to carry the targets by hand.

[ProlificARProspect]

This is Correct, I was told by a Former Police Chief that LEO's have no expectation of privacy in public or private this also applies to Public Elected officials. He went to the extend of saying you dont have to tell the Peace Officer that you are recording Him/Her.

I think I've read here somewhere that LEO's have no expectation of privacy in any public place. So with that, I don't believe they can command you to stop recording audio or video. I'm sure we'll have a full layout soon from Liberty1 with pertinent code and case law... :)

[ProlificARProspect]

They only can tell you to stop filming, if you are in a criminal scene "inside restricted police tape", without media credentials. You can tape all you want from outside "police tape".

[RomanDad]

Hes taping you.... Why shouldnt you tape him?

[jmgray]

A lot of people get into situations where LEO force them to stop filming, its almost worth carring papers with your camera, lol. There are a number of pages with "Photographer's Rights" explained, this one has a downloadable guide:
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

[CA_Libertarian]

Dave Ridley has been in many situations where LEOs, Gov, State, & City Employees have asked him to put his camera down. He has a polite way of explaining to them that he will not comply with that order and continues recording the situations. Take a look at his vidoes and you'll see how he handles it.

I know NH does not = CA, but the laws & rights may be different.

Actually, I believe the 'wiretapping' laws in NH are more poorly worded than our own. I think there is a requirement to notify of video/audio recording there, which is why Mr Ridley often states such at the beginning of his videos.

What I'm also getting at, they have a hotline phone number (aka PORC 411) they use to call in situations where their people can use to get news out "live" to the rest of the members. Somehow, when you call this number... it can be setup to stream and/or record your phone call and stream it over the Internet to their subscribers.

A similar CG.net hotline number can be beneficial for CG.net members that are in a similar situation that is newsworthy to the rest of the members.

May be a good way to protect evidence from being confiscated, 'lost', distorted, misrepresented, etc.. Once it's online, it will be very difficult to suppress the evidence.

Of course this feature will be Moderated and only important situations would be allowed to be streamed, so that the line won't be abused.

I'm not LEO Bashing, just talking about a feature/tool that can be beneficial to CG.net or ordinary law bidding 2A members.

If not in an official CG.net capacity, but maybe some thing the members here can work together to make this a reality.

I'm in the beginning stages of getting something like this set up specifically for open carry activists. I don't see why we couldn't make it something for all 2A-related issues. Keep your eyes peeled here (or over at OpenCarry.org) for details as I work on this.

[shark92651]

So chief where is the longer video?

[Liberty1]

So chief where is the longer video?


20hR1tUzIBE

[lehn20]

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Always carry this:)

[artherd]

+1

With the new smaller all black radarguns CHPs have I've had my heart stop beating on several occasions when they're behind thier crusier and have that thing pointed at me. :eek: Almost swerved to avoid getting shot at. The view of the world changes after people have tried to kill you.

Same here, I do NOT like guns being pointed at me! (be they laser or otherwise.)

[Eagle87Tango]

Go on youtube and look up jimmy justice

[tenpercentfirearms]

Seeing all of those guys with all of those guns is why America is so great. This is just one group of well armed people. There are millions of us with millions of arms. They will never take us!

[kurac]

I see what the problem is now. The border patrol office heard all of the gun fire and became worried that you would be scaring illegals back across the border.

[motorhead]

most of the local bp i've met seem ok. i lived in jamul for 6 yrs. and used to go through the 94 checkpoint all the time, never anything but courtesy. others i know had different experiences entirely. i think they knew i was a local. a few years back there was a big uproar over bp wandering onto private property, leaving gates open, etc. .
dave ridley makes an excellent case on his video. he's polite yet stands on his rights. jimmy justice, on the other hand, comes across as a snotty schoolkid. i was honestly waiting for one or both of those women to b***hslap him. and he really need to get some bass in his voice.