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View Full Version : Why are .308 lowers 3X as expensive as 5.56?


radioburning
09-12-2008, 9:05 PM
AR platform, in case that's not clear. Pretty close in mass/dimensions-3X the price? What gives?

technique
09-12-2008, 9:09 PM
Um they aren't close in mass or dimensions. They just kinda look the same. They are kick arse thats why.

emc002
09-12-2008, 9:11 PM
Basic economics.
Supply(Quantity Produced is significantly less for .308 platforms)
Supply(Significantly less manufacturers of .308 platform OLLs)
Demand(Desire/Affordabilty threshhold is less than that for AR15 platforms)

1064chubbs
09-12-2008, 9:22 PM
Basic economics.
Supply(Quantity Produced is significantly less for .308 platforms)
Supply(Significantly less manufacturers of .308 platform OLLs)
Demand(Desire/Affordabilty threshhold is less than that for AR15 platforms)

:iagree: it is basic economics... Supply is low and Demand is high. Although I believe CMMG is making a lowers that a tid bit less expensive than most.

savasyn
09-12-2008, 9:26 PM
Mostly because they can get away with it :)

PIRATE14
09-12-2008, 9:28 PM
:iagree: it is basic economics... Supply is low and Demand is high. Although I believe CMMG is making a lowers that a tid bit less expensive than most.

Pretty sure CMMG will be around 399.........same as the others....

PIRATE14
09-12-2008, 9:32 PM
Mostly because they can get away with it :)

Not even close........

PIRATE14
09-12-2008, 9:39 PM
Basic economics.
Supply(Quantity Produced is significantly less for .308 platforms)
Supply(Significantly less manufacturers of .308 platform OLLs)
Demand(Desire/Affordabilty threshhold is less than that for AR15 platforms)

Well if you could in Cali buy Armalites and DPMS....the price would be lower but by what.....30-60 bucks on RCVRs.....

The POFs/FULTONs/AEROs/NOVESKEs in 308s only number in the hundreds, which are pretty low production rates and quantities, so overall the price is pretty good to fair for them.....

308 semi-auto rifles in general just cost more $$$

As I have said before if someone wants to drop 250K, we could knockoff those few extra bucks.........;)

I can get a few guys to look west w/ the numbers I can give them but it's up to you guys to drive the market.......

savasyn
09-12-2008, 9:40 PM
Not even close........

Are saying the profit margin is identical to or perhaps even less than that of .223 lowers?

If that's true, I have to believe that it's a function of low production numbers and not because it's any harder to machine a larger piece. I will certainly grant that material costs would be higher due to a larger blank, but not 3x higher.

PIRATE14
09-12-2008, 9:47 PM
Are saying the profit margin is identical to or perhaps even less than that of .223 lowers?

If that's true, I have to believe that it's a function of low production numbers and not because it's any harder to machine a larger piece. I will certainly grant that material costs would be higher due to a larger blank, but not 3x higher.

Correct......

PolishMike
09-12-2008, 9:51 PM
Are saying the profit margin is identical to or perhaps even less than that of .223 lowers?

If that's true, I have to believe that it's a function of low production numbers and not because it's any harder to machine a larger piece. I will certainly grant that material costs would be higher due to a larger blank, but not 3x higher.


Your not figuring R&D into the equation. These arent lowers that have exact, detailed cad drawings in the public domain so that anyone with a milling machine can make.

Economics play a big portion too. People are willing to pay for them.

Blacktail 8541
09-12-2008, 9:54 PM
PIRATE14
Well if you could in Cali buy Armalites and DPMS....the price would be lower but by what.....30-60 bucks on RCVRs.....



I've seen Armalite 308 lowers for as low as $165.00. Thats quite a bit lower than the 30 to 60 bucks you stated. Machine time versus an AR15 lower is very little. Forgeings may be more expensive but not 200 more.

So it all boils down to supply and demand. Smaller supply with increased demand = more $

PIRATE14
09-12-2008, 10:07 PM
I've seen Armalite 308 lowers for as low as $165.00. Thats quite a bit lower than the 30 to 60 bucks you stated. Machine time versus an AR15 lower is very little. Forgeings may be more expensive but not 200 more.

So it all boils down to supply and demand. Smaller supply with increased demand = more $

You've seen EAGLE ARMS for that amount which are no longer being made....Both Armalite and dealers dumping stock......

The supply is smaller but the profit margin is about the same....for the 308s.....

draconianruler
09-13-2008, 4:22 AM
They are 3x more expensive cuz they are 3x cooler :cool:

Blacktail 8541
09-13-2008, 7:04 AM
No not Eagle recievers, Armalite. I know the difference. Right now I could point you to a dealer that has them for $227.00, but argueing doesn't do any good as they are not available here in CA.

speeddreamz
09-13-2008, 8:18 AM
Basic economics.
Supply(Quantity Produced is significantly less for .308 platforms)
Supply(Significantly less manufacturers of .308 platform OLLs)
Demand(Desire/Affordabilty threshhold is less than that for AR15 platforms)

Yep.



Additionally there are less manufactuers putting them out. Less people in the industry means less price point competition. Also, the more that are made the cheaper they get.
I.e. there are fixed costs of say $1000 dollars, and 50 dollars per unit. If you spread those 1000 dollars over say 1000 units, vs over 2000 units. or even more. The per unit costs decrease, there is not as many people buying AR10s

PIRATE14
09-13-2008, 8:30 AM
No not Eagle recievers, Armalite. I know the difference. Right now I could point you to a dealer that has them for $227.00, but argueing doesn't do any good as they are not available here in CA.

Aero 299 - Armalite 227 = 70 bucks.......you gonna bust my balls over 10 bucks.....

You know the difference bwtn the Eagles and Armalites......you own some of each....

I know a dealer that has EAGLES and Armalites for 225.....

Same mofo has Noveskes...Aeros...DPMS...and POF.....I think he has the BLACK RIFLE DISEASE and is a carrier.......spreading it everywhere he goes......the dude is SICK.......:43:

Oswald2001
09-13-2008, 12:00 PM
Mass Production = lower prices

Limited Production = higher prices.


It's not rocket science.


If you want lower .308 prices, just get 20x the volume of units sold and you will see prices drop.


It works the same way with tires, shoes, baby rattles, cheese graters, etc.

Blacktail 8541
09-13-2008, 6:11 PM
Pirate14, Not busting anyones balls. Least ways not for $10.00. :D

I have seen Armalite AR10 lowers for the 165.00 I stated. Just didn't like being told that I basicly didn't know what I was looking at. :yes:

Blacktail 8541
09-13-2008, 6:13 PM
I know a dealer that has EAGLES and Armalites for 225.....

Same mofo has Noveskes...Aeros...DPMS...and POF.....I think he has the BLACK RIFLE DISEASE and is a carrier.......spreading it everywhere he goes......the dude is SICK.......:43:

This persons BRD is definatley incurable!:p

NeoWeird
09-13-2008, 6:37 PM
There are several factors that most people don't see in regards to ARs that adjusts the prices.

First off there are only a couple forging houses in the US. Period. That means that most manufactures start out with the EXACT same forging. DSA sells them for something like $20 a piece and I've heard they are down to around $7 a piece from the forger when bought in bulk.

AR-10 receivers on the other hands are either forged by someone who invested in building the mold (which costs about $300k for the press and another $80k for one mold alone) and sells them to other manufactures. I've heard Armalite is one of the few companies in the WORLD with an AR-10 forging mold and the forgings alone run around $80 and they will ONLY sell to manufacturers. Now that is just heresay, but it gives you an idea of where the prices start to jump up.

You also have people, like POF, who go for straight billet. A piece of billet in 7075 large enough to make a .308 lower is going to run you around $75 depending on how much you order. So the price difference isn't much but it gives people who Aramlite wouldn't sell to a chance to make an AR-10 substitute. This also adds on quite a bit of machine time though as well, so you have to factor in a little bit to cover the machine cost, tolling, labor, etc and the prices starts to rise. 2 hours of extra machine time may not seem like much, but if labor is $30 an hour and the house has to make a little extra on top of that you are starting to push a $150 gap between materials and labor alone on the AR-15 and AR-10. EDMs drastically cut down on time, but you have to factor in machine cover cost for the EDM so it doesn't really make a big difference price wise to the end consumer - the manufacture can just make them faster and more accurate.

Lastly, the AR-10 is not a military rifle on a larger scale (if at all outside Armalite). The AR-15 on the other hand is probably the US' most massively produced firearm in it's history. Many companies who get government contracts will get financial help, tax relief, subsidization, etc so their intial invest and start up costs is less, free, or even getting paid to do it. This cuts off a large chunk of the price as they no longer need to cover the cost of the machines, tooling, etc.

You also have to factor in complete shop down time as they switch over to run AR-10s. It is not just putting a bigger piece of material up and pressing 'go' on a new program. You are talking multiple (maybe even in the hundreds) of jigs that have to get taken down, cleaned, machines recalibrated, new jigs set up, those jigs being indicated, etc. If they loose their entire crew for a couple hours every time they run AR-10s, and again the convert back to AR-15s, then they need to make up that time lost in the product otherwise it's not worth it to them to switch over.

If you understand HOW they are manufacturered you will see that there isn't as big of a price gouge as many people claim. Yes, it is not proportianate to the AR-15, but then again neither are the numbers by which they sell them. They would probably make more money just running AR-15s, but diversity, novelty, appeal, interest, etc is a great thing to have in business so they diversify their catalog and that takes a little bit of money so it costs the end consumer a little extra as well.