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Black Majik
09-09-2008, 4:34 PM
After somewhere around 20 thousand rounds, I received a "click" instead of a "bang" on my Spikes .22 AR this past Sunday at Angeles.

I'm sure it's attributed to dry firing on an empty chamber since the bolt doesn't lock back and I sometimes end up dryfiring when the magazine runs out.

Time to call Angela @ Spikes.

Lesson learned. Count those rounds.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/RChang824/spikesbolt9-9-08001.jpg

Hmm.. wonder how much a new nickel bolt would cost :)

BroncoBob
09-09-2008, 4:50 PM
Yikes! Not good. I better watch myself.

Guntech
09-09-2008, 4:54 PM
Get some snap caps or dummy rounds. 20k is pretty good since its a AR platform .22.

636
09-09-2008, 4:55 PM
I wonder if the Spikes bolt uses a different firing pin than the Ciener kits.

I've seen at least one place that sells "better" firing pins for the Cieners.

CHS
09-09-2008, 5:18 PM
After somewhere around 20 thousand rounds, I received a "click" instead of a "bang" on my Spikes .22 AR this past Sunday at Angeles.

I'm sure it's attributed to dry firing on an empty chamber since the bolt doesn't lock back and I sometimes end up dryfiring when the magazine runs out.


Or, maybe it's attributed to something like, I don't know, 20K rounds? :)

dribbler
09-09-2008, 6:08 PM
dry-firing an AR can break it?

scubamark13
09-09-2008, 6:17 PM
The same thing happened to mine after about 2k rounds. Do you have the ciener kit or the spikes bolt? If it is the spikes kit you will be good to go if it is Ciener you will want to check out this thread.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=101761&highlight=ciener+firing+pin

Good luck

510dat
09-09-2008, 7:16 PM
dry-firing an AR can break it?

If it's a rimfire it can.

bohoki
09-09-2008, 7:47 PM
Get some snap caps or dummy rounds. 20k is pretty good since its a AR platform .22.

so are you suggesting putting a snap cap in the mag as to be the last round?

they really ought to make a mag that the follower blocks the bolt on the last shot if this is a known issue

they want us to remember to count 10 bangs then stop
heck i often pull the trigger 7 times on my revolvers i'm too busy concentrating on the target

jksupplyco
09-09-2008, 7:49 PM
so are you suggesting putting a snap cap in the mag as to be the last round?

they really ought to make a mag that the follower blocks the bolt on the last shot if this is a known issue

they want us to remember to count 10 bangs then stop
heck i often pull the trigger 7 times on my revolvers i'm too busy concentrating on the target


Apparently the 3rd gen Black Dogs are supposed to do exactly that. I haven't seen them yet, but they should be out soon..

arfan66
09-10-2008, 12:40 AM
I tried to get Spike's to replace my broken firing pin after 200 or so rds. but no joy. You're better off getting a Black Dog Machine firing pin here:

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-firing-pin.aspx

Better material, machining & finish.

Instead of buying a whole BDM mag w/bolt hold open followers, just buy the upgrade kits (3 or 6 ea. springs, bolt hold open followers & base plates) here:

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/red-follower-3-pack.aspx

Believe me, the quality of BDM parts vs. Ceiner is HUGE improvement! YMMV.

jksupplyco - If make it out to the Oct. SDPS-IDPA match, I'll bring my Spike's .22 & mags w/bolt hold open so you can see for yourself (I usually wear my Spike's Tactical hat to the matches).

Jeff

jksupplyco
09-10-2008, 6:09 AM
jksupplyco - If make it out to the Oct. SDPS-IDPA match, I'll bring my Spike's .22 & mags w/bolt hold open so you can see for yourself (I usually wear my Spike's Tactical hat to the matches).

Jeff



Jeff, I remember talking to you a month or so ago.. I'll be there, and I'd love to check it out! Thanks...

Blacktail 8541
09-10-2008, 7:25 AM
The Black dogs now have the bolt hold open feature, as for the fireing pin. Call Spikes and they will send you a replacement. I broke one of the new style after about 4000 rounds. If it is a ciener kit modified by spikes, call BDM, they have the tool steel fireing pins.

arfan66
09-10-2008, 7:38 AM
Black Majik's firing pin looks like the older, modified Ceiner bolt version. As a matter of fact, my firing pin broke at exactly the same place (poor machining, no radius in the notch corners).

Black Majik - Not sure why you'd want a nickle bolt, it's not that much effort to clean the older style. IMHO you're better off using the extra $$ to buy more .22 ammo :13:

Jeff

H2H
09-10-2008, 7:41 AM
get the spare parts from BDM, firing pins and extractors are heat treated.

scubamark13
09-10-2008, 7:47 AM
When I broke mine Black Dog wasn't making the firing pin and yes I did call. The Black Dog pin has to be better than Cieners. Do the bolt hold open followers hold the bolt open even after the mag has been released like the standard AR?

Black Majik
09-10-2008, 8:51 AM
Thanks guys for the tips.


Jeff,

I believe you're correct, I think Spikes used to modify ceiner bolts. I'm unfamiliar with the ceiner bolt, I see the firing pin for sale at BDM, is there also a firing pin spring I'll need to buy?

Also, how does the firing pin install into the bolt?

Thanks.

ETA: Ordered the firing pin through BDM, thanks for the suggestion!

Blacktail 8541
09-10-2008, 12:28 PM
Do the bolt hold open followers hold the bolt open even after the mag has been released like the standard AR?


No, it will let the bolt go home when the mag is released.

studiojon
09-10-2008, 3:47 PM
Good Luck Rich... Im about 17K rnds behind you on my Ciener.. ill try and cath up while your spikes is down!.

:chris:

J.

Black Majik
09-10-2008, 3:54 PM
Good Luck Rich... Im about 17K rnds behind you on my Ciener.. ill try and cath up while your spikes is down!.

:chris:

J.

LOL thanks Jon. Hurry! I got an email from Spikes also, looks like they're sending me a replacement firing pin.

It'll be a race between BDM and Spikes, hopefully I'll have it up and running soon. :)

arfan66
09-10-2008, 4:25 PM
Black Majik,

BDM doesn't sell the firing pin spring. The one still in your bolt should be fine. To remove the old firing pin and install the new one, it's best to use a bench vice. However, it can be done without one.

Protect the bolt finish by covering the vice jaws with pieces of plywood, carpet or a rag folded over several times.

Secure the bolt in the vice sideways, flat sided botton against one vice jaw and the spring housing against the other. That small tab at the rear of the bolt should be outside the vice jaws. It should be pretty snug but not enough crush anything :cool:

Using a 3/32" pin punch, tap the roll pin out of the bolt body. If you lose the roll pin, don't worry they're pretty common (3/32" x 1"). Home Depot, Lowe's, Ace Hardware should have some. Longer ones can be cut down to the correct size if needed.

Remove the bolt from the vice and tap on end to remove the broken firing pin & spring.

Thoroughly clean out the firing pin channel with a spray cleaner like Gun Scrubber.

I found that my BDM pin diameter was a hair too large (using digital calipers, approx. .001") at the base of the 'srtiker nub'. I just chucked it in a drill and polished with some 400 grit sandpaper. If you don't have the tools to measure, just slip fit the pin in the bolt. Remove and and repeat the polishing step until it goes in nice and smooth.

To re-install, resecure the bolt in the vice. Insert the new firing pin with spring. Turn until the notch lines up with the roll pin hole. Using an appropriate sized finishing nail or another pin punch, keep the firing pin in the correct position by inserting it from the bottom side. Place the old or new roll pin on the top side and drive it in place with a hammer & punch (I started with a 1/4" pin punch and set the pin just under the bolt surface with a 3/32" punch). The roll pin should be flush or just under the bolt surface on both sides.

And you're done!

I function check the firing pin using an empty, fired .22 case in the chamber. Pull the trigger and check for light primer strikes.

Good Luck!

studiojon
09-10-2008, 4:32 PM
LOL thanks Jon. Hurry! I got an email from Spikes also, looks like they're sending me a replacement firing pin.

It'll be a race between BDM and Spikes, hopefully I'll have it up and running soon. :)


Ill try and put a rush on it I dont think my Thumbs will hold out loading those damn .22's! I need that BDM loader! lol

:chris:

Black Majik
09-10-2008, 4:35 PM
Black Majik,

BDM doesn't sell the firing pin spring. The one still in your bolt should be fine. To remove the old firing pin and install the new one, it's best to use a bench vice. However, it can be done without one.

Protect the bolt finish by covering the vice jaws with pieces of plywood, carpet or a rag folded over several times.

Secure the bolt in the vice sideways, flat sided botton against one vice jaw and the spring housing against the other. That small tab at the rear of the bolt should be outside the vice jaws. It should be pretty snug but not enough crush anything :cool:

Using a 3/32" pin punch, tap the roll pin out of the bolt body. If you lose the roll pin, don't worry they're pretty common (3/32" x 1"). Home Depot, Lowe's, Ace Hardware should have some. Longer ones can be cut down to the correct size if needed.

Remove the bolt from the vice and tap on end to remove the broken firing pin & spring.

Thoroughly clean out the firing pin channel with a spray cleaner like Gun Scrubber.

I found that my BDM pin diameter was a hair too large (using digital calipers, approx. .001") at the base of the 'srtiker nub'. I just chucked it in a drill and polished with some 400 grit sandpaper. If you don't have the tools to measure, just slip fit the pin in the bolt. Remove and and repeat the polishing step until it goes in nice and smooth.

To re-install, resecure the bolt in the vice. Insert the new firing pin with spring. Turn until the notch lines up with the roll pin hole. Using an appropriate sized finishing nail or another pin punch, keep the firing pin in the correct position by inserting it from the bottom side. Place the old or new roll pin on the top side and drive it in place with a hammer & punch (I started with a 1/4" pin punch and set the pin just under the bolt surface with a 3/32" punch). The roll pin should be flush or just under the bolt surface on both sides.

And you're done!

I function check the firing pin using an empty, fired .22 case in the chamber. Pull the trigger and check for light primer strikes.

Good Luck!

Thank you much, this will certainly help! It is very helpful. :)



Ill try and put a rush on it I dont think my Thumbs will hold out loading those damn .22's! I need that BDM loader! lol

:chris:


Agreed! Though when I called BDM they told me it was $120! Pass! :eek:

arfan66
09-10-2008, 4:39 PM
studiojon - You could save your thumbs and modify your BDM mags like this:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/sloansteady/IMG_0910.jpg

A small screw w/spacer is installed in tapped hole at the bottom of the aluminum bar.

ETA: Old picture. The followers have been upgraded to the new BDM bolt hold open version.

Hell of a lot cheaper than a BDM loader!

studiojon
09-10-2008, 5:14 PM
Nice!

scubamark13
09-11-2008, 6:55 AM
I have one of these loaders it works great for 10 rounders but won't fully load my pre bans it will only get about 15 rounds before the spring pressure is to great to load any more.

Click on this link
http://www.m60joe.com/
Then .22LR Converted Ramline Speed Loaders

Its expensive but worth every penny!

offrdmania
09-11-2008, 7:12 AM
I tried to get Spike's to replace my broken firing pin after 200 or so rds. but no joy. You're better off getting a Black Dog Machine firing pin here:

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-firing-pin.aspx

Better material, machining & finish.

Instead of buying a whole BDM mag w/bolt hold open followers, just buy the upgrade kits (3 or 6 ea. springs, bolt hold open followers & base plates) here:

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/red-follower-3-pack.aspx

Believe me, the quality of BDM parts vs. Ceiner is HUGE improvement! YMMV.

jksupplyco - If make it out to the Oct. SDPS-IDPA match, I'll bring my Spike's .22 & mags w/bolt hold open so you can see for yourself (I usually wear my Spike's Tactical hat to the matches).

Jeff

How do you know which mags already have the bolt hold open followers? Has the plastic always been red or is red the giveaway?

arfan66
09-11-2008, 8:11 AM
offrdmania - All of the followers are red. However, the bolt open followers have a 'riser tab' that extends above the feed lips after the last round.

Consequently, it reduces the magazine capacity to eight rds. I ground away a portion of the internal limit pin to regain the two rounds.

Jeff

offrdmania
09-11-2008, 9:02 AM
My magazine will hold 10rds so I imagine I have the old one. Is the new follower the one listed in the black dog link above? If you are only getting 8 rds in with the new follower then maybe Black dog should listen and re-mold their magazines with the 10rd pin down about another 1/4 inch to allow for another 2 rds on the new magazines. Or is this what they are doing already?

arfan66
09-11-2008, 3:26 PM
"Is the new follower the one listed in the black dog link above?"

Well, just click on the link and find out.

To my knowledge, BDM has not changed the ten round mag bodies to compensate for the new follower design. Personally, I think it's easier just to remove a bit of plastic to make it work. Of course, you have the option of contacting BDM with your concerns and waiting for a revision ;).

Good Luck!

offrdmania
09-11-2008, 3:30 PM
Clicking on the link brings you to the follower but the description doesnt tell you either way if it is the new style or not.

Black Majik
09-11-2008, 3:44 PM
Clicking on the link brings you to the follower but the description doesnt tell you either way if it is the new style or not.

Kevin at BDM confirmed with me that those are the new style that lock open the bolt. Only catch is that we're further reduced to 9 rds. Great... ;)

arfan66
09-11-2008, 9:09 PM
offrdmania - The picture on the BDM website is indeed the bolt hold open follower.

This one (without the aluminum bar) is the old version:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/sloansteady/IMG_0913.jpg

No vertical tab to hold the bolt open.

Black Majik - I ground the round limit pin to reclaim the 10th round. Of course, you can never use the old style follower because you'll be able to load 11 rds :chris:

Dimensions: The aluminum bar is .125" thick (1/8") x .344" wide x 1.25" long (shorter side is 1.215").

Top hole is centered and .125" from top edge, drilled and tapped for a 4-40 pan head screw.

Bottom hole is centered and .225" from bottom edge (this allows a total of ten rds.) and is drilled and tapped for a 6-32 button head screw.

More to follow......