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Flat Broke
09-06-2008, 11:42 AM
I have been trying to nail down my optics choice for my 16" AR. For right now, it's going to be a multi-use rig (plinking, target duty at the range, and potential SHTF), down the road, I might like to try my hand at 3 gun or tactical rifle matches. Initially, I was thinking along the lines of an Aimpoint, and then a Larue flip-to-side mounted magnifier. This would get good versatility, but the idea of having the magnifier hanging off the side seems kinda problem prone.

So I started looking for 1-4 and dedicated 4x optics. I got a quick indoctrination in to the price of good glass, and realized that a Millet DMS1 might be a good compromise between afordability and performance/quality. The major downside to that scope seems to be that the donut reticle goes bye bye in bright sunlight. That got me to thinking; could I use something like a Bushnell Banner 1-4x32 and use BAC at 1X? The scope has a pretty prounced reticle, so I'm wondering if the reticle would carry over into the FOV of the weak eye to correctly superimpose. Does the fixed reticle, as opposed to a reflected dot like on an aimpoint cause problems?

One last question, would it be conceiveable to use a 1.5 power setting in conjunction with BAC? if so, that opens up quite a few possibilities in terms of illuminated reticle scopes.

Thanks in advance for any input,
Chris

aplinker
09-06-2008, 3:41 PM
I've never seen a reticle that's sufficiently illuminated to do what you want.

If it existed, we'd buy it.

The only thing that does is K-Dot, Short Dot, Accupoint and SpecterDR

Flat Broke
09-06-2008, 5:13 PM
That's a nice list, but tough to justify spending more on the optic than the rifle itself (excluding the accupoint). Is the major issue for MFGs, illuminating a First Focal Plane reticle? The reason I ask is because there are some decent 1-4 scopes out there, how hard would it be to superimpose a dot on the reticle? Taking the Banner as an example a dot in the middle of the Cicle-X reticle seems like it wouldnt' be a huge technological or cost issue.

Guess I'm going to have to think hard about what I really need/want because with a LaRue SPRE mount, the accupoint is way outta the budget right now.

Chris

3GunFunShooter
09-06-2008, 7:04 PM
I have the Millet DMS scope 1-4. On sale now at Midway for $204.00
Over 56 pages on this one scope on AR15.com forums.
Great scope fo rthe money.

brassburnz
09-06-2008, 7:15 PM
I've also been looking for AR optics for a 3-gun setup tactical class, which means you can have one optic. I'm currently running with a Leupold VX1 3-9X40 which is fine for longer distance shots but a little slow on close ones.

I have friends running Meopta, Accupoint, Acog, Millett DMS, etc. I was going to go with the Millett, but decided on the Accupoint because of the daylight problems.

In order to buy the Accupoint I had to scrimp and save for a while. I also sold a bunch of stuff here in Calguns. I still have to buy a mount, so I guess I'll be selling more stuff, but in the long run, I'm sure I'm better off getting the Accupoint.

Save up. It didn't take as long as I thought it would.

Flat Broke
09-06-2008, 10:27 PM
I have the Millet DMS scope 1-4. On sale now at Midway for $204.00
Over 56 pages on this one scope on AR15.com forums.
Great scope fo rthe money.

I was ready to go the DMS route, but the consitent reports of the reticle not being bright enough for daylight use turned me away. If the reticle was a proven winner in bright and dim scenarios, I'd spend my money with Millet/Bushnell.

Chris

Hoop
09-07-2008, 12:34 AM
I was ready to go the DMS route, but the consitent reports of the reticle not being bright enough for daylight use turned me away. If the reticle was a proven winner in bright and dim scenarios, I'd spend my money with Millet/Bushnell.

Chris

I'm in a similar boat and considering the IOR valdada 3x25 or maybe an ACOG if I can scrape the cash together.

Leupold makes a neat one for ~600 bucks, just search ebay for leupold SPR reticle and it should come up.

There is an illuminated bushnell trophy but I haven't seen or used it so I have no clue how bright it is.

Millett is OKAY, but not great. Also you need a Larue mount to run it right since the eye relief is really long.

PS - We're all searching for what you want and so far we haven't found it for anything less than a lot$$$. I'm hoping a manufacturer like Nikon who can make decent glass for not a lot of money will come out with a "tacticool" low power scope but so far nada.

bigmike82
09-07-2008, 12:48 AM
I had a Bushnell Trophy T-Dot for a while, and it was quite bright. It was also very bulky and had no magnification, but the reticle was nice.

aplinker
09-07-2008, 7:42 AM
Seems to me someone would get the point that putting a bright center dot on a moderately priced (even $400) scope would sell more than a few.

If they made it a 1MOA dot that's as bright as an Aimpoint, 1-4X with a BDC reticle scaled for 5.56 to 600yds at 4X (like an ACOG) it would be ideal.

Heck, if Trijicon just put the TA31F reticle in the Accupoint...

But I digress... ;)

I had a Bushnell Trophy T-Dot for a while, and it was quite bright. It was also very bulky and had no magnification, but the reticle was nice.

that's essentially an Aimpoint... it's got a dot, but it's not a scope.

maxicon
09-10-2008, 8:58 AM
The major downside to that scope seems to be that the donut reticle goes bye bye in bright sunlight.

Just to clarify, the DMS-1 reticle doesn't go away in bright light, just the illumination. The reticle's still there and is black.

You won't find a magnified scope with daylight illumination in that price range, and would need to bump up to the Trijicon Accupoint or K-Dot (or even higher) to get that.

RobG
09-10-2008, 2:59 PM
I tried the 3x flip to side with my EO and didn't care for it. Seemed to be in the way when not in use. You could try a Weaver 1-3. Its a standard crosshair scope, no illum. and only 150ish. It gets good reviews by those that have them.

3GunFunShooter
09-11-2008, 5:48 AM
You do not have to have a Larue mount for the Millet. There are many other choices out there. Is the Larue the best. Yes.
Check maxicon's post on mounts. Execellent post and information.

Flat Broke
09-11-2008, 9:45 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I actually swapped PMs with OutlawDon discussing his experiences with the Weaver. That was one of the things that led me to think abou the Bushnell Banner 1-4. A simple 1-4 with a reasonably thick reticle that would show up well in different lighting scenarios. Essentially, if the ilumination of the Millet dies in daylight, you're left with a 1-4 etched reticle optic. While I'm a fan of saving for what I want rather than buying stop-gap solutions, I guess I'm not sure what I want. At this point, it's between buying something like a Weaver1-3 or Bushnell 1-4 to see if I'd like something with that magnification range, or just saving for an Accupoint and hoping I like it. I have other riffles, and will undoubtedly buy more, so spending $100 or so to try something like the Weaver or Bushnell isn't a total waste of money, as there are 22s it can live on.

Chris

maxicon
09-11-2008, 12:53 PM
I have a Weaver V3, though I haven't used it a lot, and it's a fine scope so far, and lighter than the DMS-1. It's not very exciting, but is solid and functional.

That said, My DMS-1 is one of my favorite scopes these days, and I've been shooting it on a Walther G22 a lot lately. I like the speed and intuitiveness of the reticle and the flexibility of the illumination more than a traditional cross-hair, which I have many of. Then again, I like the Eotech reticle a lot too, and they're similar.

From a budget and test-drive perspective, the Bushnell Banner loses a lot of its value when you take it out of the box, as they're not a very desirable model. The Weaver does better, as more people like them, but they're not super popular for whatever reasons. The DMS-1 keeps a good resale value and is quick to resell as well, due to their popularity.

The illumination washes out in bright daylight, but works fine in less direct or strong light. It's not dim, like the Mueller illuminated scopes, but just isn't bright sun strong.

If someone stole all my scopes, the first magnified one I'd buy as a replacement would be another DMS-1.

Flat Broke
09-11-2008, 1:31 PM
Thanks for the honest comparison of those three options. Considering there are other 1-4 alternatives, I'll take the Banner off my list if I buy-to-try.

Chris

ElvenSoul
09-20-2008, 12:33 PM
the ante has been upped...I think all the scope companies are waiting to relase 1-6x

see
http://www.ellisoptics.com/TemplateOmega.aspx

I expect to see more models available in the next year

5968
09-20-2008, 4:08 PM
I know the DMS-1 isn't the highest quality scope out there, but I have one and so far it has been a decent scope.

ElvenSoul
09-22-2008, 1:42 AM
for the price you can do no wrong

just make sure it the 2nd gen DMS-1

5968
09-29-2008, 5:28 PM
for the price you can do no wrong

just make sure it the 2nd gen DMS-1

And how do you tell the difference?

randy
09-30-2008, 4:55 AM
The Millet got really good reviews from some very good 3 gunners. I've used it and for the money it's hard to beat.

LibertyOptics
09-30-2008, 8:22 AM
What about the Bushnell Elite 4200 1.24-4x24 with illumonated 4a dot reticle???

Flat Broke
09-30-2008, 9:02 AM
And how do you tell the difference?

First generation ones have the illumination control on the eye-piece.

Chris

FlyingPen
09-30-2008, 9:18 AM
Falcon Optics which is a pretty well regarded company also makes a decent and pretty rugged 1.5-5 scope. Mine is very well built and pretty clear.

http://rwsnydergunsmithing.com/secure-rwsnydergunsmithing/Scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=20

5968
09-30-2008, 6:14 PM
So far I have liked mine. It is a little on the heavy side, but it holds it zero. I haven't had any issues with the red fading out either. For the price I don't think it is a bad scope.

randy
10-03-2008, 1:18 AM
Flyingpen, it looks like it could be a good buy. Any chance I could meet you at a range and see it?

5968
10-09-2008, 5:14 PM
First generation ones have the illumination control on the eye-piece.

Chris

I guess I got a second gen.

gose
10-09-2008, 5:18 PM
Seems to me someone would get the point that putting a bright center dot on a moderately priced (even $400) scope would sell more than a few.
If they made it a 1MOA dot that's as bright as an Aimpoint, 1-4X with a BDC reticle scaled for 5.56 to 600yds at 4X (like an ACOG) it would be ideal.
Heck, if Trijicon just put the TA31F reticle in the Accupoint...
But I digress... ;)
that's essentially an Aimpoint... it's got a dot, but it's not a scope.

K-Dot with a BDC...Yummy! (just sent an email to Meopta asking for this ;))
I'd even dish out the cash for the Z6i if it had a better reticle or BDC.

gose
10-10-2008, 7:48 AM
"Thank you for your suggestion! You are right, this request came to us not for the first time and we definitely are considering the possibilities. Hopefuly Meopta is able offer some solution in the near future." ;)

Flat Broke
10-14-2008, 11:21 PM
I went for the Simmons Pro Diamond for $80 to try. I have a CAA mount to start. If I like the scope, I may invest in a LaRue mount for it. I can pick up the reticle fairly well using the BAC, but the eye relief pocket seems a little specific. I need to get a really consistent cheek weld to have the eyepiece filled with the sight picture. I'm new to magnified optics, so that's taking a little getting used to. Any insight into what range/distance I should use to zero the scope? The relation between POA and POI shouldn't shift when the magnification changes right?

Chris

3GunFunShooter
10-15-2008, 5:33 AM
Good choice with the Simmons. I have been running the Pro Diamond for 3 years and no problems. Natchez has them on sale for $49.99. A lot of 3 gun shooters got these when Benny Hill made his recomendation. For the money the best value out there.

Flat Broke
10-15-2008, 7:32 AM
I went for the slightly newer one with a 32mm objective and illuminated reticle. I had seen the recommendation for the older one on the Brian Enos forum after I picked up the one I have. What mount are you running with yours?

Chris

3GunFunShooter
10-15-2008, 9:56 AM
I have mine mounted on my ASI Mini 14. On my AR I found some mount that worked but I still had to go with high rings to get it to work right.
How do you like the illuminated reticle?

Flat Broke
10-15-2008, 12:08 PM
At first I wasn't stoked about the reticle brightness, but I had a spare C2032 and swapped that in. Presto, nice and bright. Doesn't wash out and grow like the reticle on my brother's NcStar, but it's still pretty bright. I haven't had it out in bright sun yet, but the black reticle is good enough for that anyhow. I need to mess around with the mount and possibly make a throw lever/barrel nut for it.

Hopefully I can get it out to the range in the next couple of weeks and set it up. I guess I'm just going to do a std ibz for now since it's only 5x on the big end anyhow. The scope I got was old shelf stock, but didn't come with a manual, so I need to get the reticle dimensions from Simmons so I know what kind of holdover points the perimeter of the diamond equates to. I'll be sure to post up more after I've got it zero'd in and have used it a little.

Chris

aplinker
10-15-2008, 2:52 PM
You can measure the reticle yourself.

Just use 1" ruled targets at 100yds. It's likely to be more accurate that way anyways.

At first I wasn't stoked about the reticle brightness, but I had a spare C2032 and swapped that in. Presto, nice and bright. Doesn't wash out and grow like the reticle on my brother's NcStar, but it's still pretty bright. I haven't had it out in bright sun yet, but the black reticle is good enough for that anyhow. I need to mess around with the mount and possibly make a throw lever/barrel nut for it.

Hopefully I can get it out to the range in the next couple of weeks and set it up. I guess I'm just going to do a std ibz for now since it's only 5x on the big end anyhow. The scope I got was old shelf stock, but didn't come with a manual, so I need to get the reticle dimensions from Simmons so I know what kind of holdover points the perimeter of the diamond equates to. I'll be sure to post up more after I've got it zero'd in and have used it a little.

Chris

Flat Broke
10-16-2008, 8:26 AM
I hadn't thought of that, but that's a pretty good idea. If I were to use 1" at 50 yards, would I just divide the measurements by 2? I need to learn the math behind MOA (I'll do a search when I get home tonight) for figguring these types of things out. All my previous shooting experience is with irons at 100 yards or less, so I have some learning to do :)

Chris

aplinker
10-16-2008, 1:37 PM
I hadn't thought of that, but that's a pretty good idea. If I were to use 1" at 50 yards, would I just divide the measurements by 2? I need to learn the math behind MOA (I'll do a search when I get home tonight) for figguring these types of things out. All my previous shooting experience is with irons at 100 yards or less, so I have some learning to do :)

Chris


What does it matter what MOA it is...? You don't care about MOA in specific - you care about holdovers, which will be in inches/100yds at distances. They'll work about the same as MOA, but without the complicating factor of the extra tidbits.

Figure out the bullet drop of your load (it probably won't be too far off from standard loads), then scale for distance and find a feature in your scope that gives you that location for each of the distances.

For example, if the bullet drop is 8" at 200yds, you'd need a feature 4" down at 100yds. If the bullet drop is 100" at 500yds, you'd need a feature 20" down at 100yds. Just map out your reticle on the 1" paper and do what you need.

You might find it works better to zero somewhere other than the center.