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Jon-Anvil_Arms
09-03-2008, 3:11 PM
Greetings Gentlemen,

As some of you may know we are located in Florida , far from California and the restrictive firearms rules you guys must endure, so I am not real familiar with them and the various legal methods you folks use to accommodate said restrictive rules.

We manufacture AR15 type weapons and have been selling more and more to folks living in California. I'm sure if I read this board long enough I'll probably find the answers to my questions, but to be honest right now it is all I can do to break away from the shop and come inside to write this. We don't have a big crew like some of the big boys, we are just a small operation trying to make the very best product possible and at the same time keep the prices reasonable.

Oh yes, I guess it should be obvious, we are definitely an off list AR manufacturer! :cool2:

Lately I have had more and more people ask me about installing your bullet button and some other kind of magazine catch that seems to be accepted by your leaders.

I have also had questions about installing that funny looking stock that uses a padded receiver extension (buffer tube) and the odd looking slanted back grip.

I have seen some pictures of these items but I could use your help in the following areas:

1) Which of these things is officially recognized as "100% CA Legal"?

2) I need to locate the manufacturers (Not dealers, but the people that actually make the items) of these items so I can buy some to have on hand for you guys when these parts are ordered.

3) Which of the various grips, stocks and magazine catches are the most popular?

Any assistance on this will be much appreciated.

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

863-398-4460

Email: Jon@AnvilArms.com

www.AnvilArms.com (http://www.AnvilArms.com)

Lifetime NRA Member (http://www.nra.org/)

NOTE: Post edited to remove the completely UNINTENTIONALY offensive comments that were said 100% in a friendly sort of way about California not being a free state.

In no way what ever did I mean to offend anyone, only to acknowledge that those of us living outside your state really do understand your predicament and we feel your pain.

That is exactly why as President of the company I decided to continue selling receivers to people in your state and NOT to charge any additional fees to you even though we have to do more paperwork to sell to people in your state than in any of the other states in this country. Extra phone calls to get that silly number, extra time entering stuff in the computer to get a special permission slip that we have to copy and send with the receivers and weI have to keep on file for years. Like we don’t already have to keep enough files and records.

I humbly apologize for the remarks and honestly regret that they were considered offensive by anyone.

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

aplinker
09-03-2008, 3:18 PM
Greetings Gentlemen,

As some of you may know we are located in Florida (That is in the Free (for now) part of the USA) :cool2:

We manufacture AR15 type weapons and have been selling more and more to folks living behind the lines in The Peoples Republic of California. I'm sure if I read this board long enough I'll probably find the answers to my questions, but to be honest right now it is all I can do to break away from the shop and come inside to write this. We don't have a big crew like some of the big boys, we are just a small operation trying to make the very best product possible and at the same time keep the prices reasonable.

Oh yes, I guess it should be obvious, we are definitely an off list AR manufacturer! :cool2:

Lately I have had more and more people ask me about installing your bullet button and some other kind of magazine catch that seems to be accepted by your leaders.

I have also had questions about installing that funny looking stock that uses a padded receiver extension (buffer tube) and the odd looking slanted back grip.

I have seen some pictures of these items but I could use your help in the following areas:

1) Which of these things is officially recognized as "100% CA Legal"?
None are officially recognized by the DOJ. They are accepted as legal by users here, many FFLs, etc. The DOJ has abdicated its responsibility and is refusing to provide information or opinions. It should be noted that in the few arrests with firearms containing one of these devices, none have been prosecuted and all ended with favorable judgments. I would suggest speaking with bwiese and hoffmang (PM them here for contact info) and TM-LLP before making your decision (for your own peace of mind)

2) I need to locate the manufacturers (Not dealers, but the people that actually make the items) of these items so I can buy some to have on hand for you guys when these parts are ordered.
MonsterMan on here makes the monsterman grip
http://www.monstermangrip.com/

Toolbox X on here makes both the U-15 (funny stock with foam pad and designed the B-15 bullet
His website: http://www.californiarifles.com/

Prince50 on here makes all of the bullet button and Prince50 magazine locks.


3) Which of the various grips, stocks and magazine catches are the most popular?
Bullet button
Monsterman Grip
U-15 (in that order)

Also, the B-15 is new and developing a strong following, while the original Prince50 still has a following
Darin (Prince50) will be able to guide you with counts and figures on those, as he makes them all.

Any assistance on this will be much appreciated.

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

863-398-4460

Email: Jon@AnvilArms.com

www.AnvilArms.com (http://www.AnvilArms.com)

Lifetime NRA Member (http://www.nra.org/)


In bold

The following people are who you should contact on the site (as listed above):
bwiese
hoffmang
Toolbox X
MonsterMan
Prince50

They'll likely 'stop in" to the thread, as well.

JagerTroop
09-03-2008, 3:19 PM
(username) Prince50 manufactures the "bullet button" and the "prince 50 maglock" for the AR15 platform. (username) MonsterMan is the manufacturer of the "monsterman grip" (that "odd looking slanted back grip". All three products are well liked (I have them all) and widely used. The bullet button is probably slightly more popular.

eta* damn plinker! you beat me to it.

Full Clip
09-03-2008, 4:10 PM
Jon, I certainly appreciate the attempt to reach out to Californians, but, so far as I'm concerned, and I don't speak for anybody but ME, you can drop the condescending "Free state" and "People's Republic" stuff. It's really tired.

devildog999
09-03-2008, 4:19 PM
Jon, I certainly appreciate the attempt to reach out to Californians, but, so far as I'm concerned, and I don't speak for anybody but ME, you can drop the condescending "Free state" and "People's Republic" stuff. It's really tired.

You know that could just be his personal views or the way he talks and what not as opposed to him being condescending.

sorensen440
09-03-2008, 4:21 PM
Jon, I certainly appreciate the attempt to reach out to Californians, but, so far as I'm concerned, and I don't speak for anybody but ME, you can drop the condescending "Free state" and "People's Republic" stuff. It's really tired.

ahh lighten up many of us use the same lingo

gimmejr
09-03-2008, 4:24 PM
You know that could just be his personal views or the way he talks and what not as opposed to him being condescending.

He probably sees alot of Californias on different gun boards talk the same way about their home state. I appreciate the fact he trying to help also, Im not offended.

kakpataka
09-03-2008, 4:25 PM
You know that could just be his personal views or the way he talks and what not as opposed to him being condescending.
+1....................At least he is trying to be helpful as opposed to so many out there who wont event ship you an AR sight tool..................
A lot of people here use occupied left coast, PRK etc..........I dont see it offensive and as far as I can tell, he is in a free state!

Full Clip
09-03-2008, 4:37 PM
At least he is trying to be helpful as opposed to so many out there who wont event ship you an AR sight tool...

You're right.
Just hit me wrong after spending some time on The High Road.
One reason why I like CalGuns over most every other gun board is that the CA-bashing is kept to a minimum.
I apologize to Jon. He is trying to be helpful.

DVSmith
09-03-2008, 4:39 PM
You're right.
Just hit me wrong after spending some time on The High Road.
One reason why I like CalGuns over most every other gun board is that the CA-bashing is kept to a minimum.
I apologize to Jon. He is trying to be helpful.

It struck me as off too, so you are not alone. But I am glad out of state manufacturers are willing to at least try to build us guns.

DSA_FAL
09-03-2008, 5:12 PM
It struck me as off too, so you are not alone.

Its one thing for Californians to use terms like PRK and Kalifornia and another for outsiders. Its sort of like black people and the N word. (Not to the same degree but similar in concept.) That being said, I appreciate any outside vendor coming here to learn and want to sell to us as opposed to the Fudds who act like chickens with their heads cut off when you merely ask about buying a firearm that is legal to buy in this state.

Jon-Anvil_Arms
09-03-2008, 5:29 PM
Gentelmen,

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for the assistance!

Also, the comments about my comments were duly noted, my post has been edited and an official apology offered.. :)

Jon K.
Anvil Arms

kakpataka
09-03-2008, 5:37 PM
Gentelmen,

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for the assistance!

Also, the comments about my comments were duly noted, my post has been edited and an official apology offered.. :)

Jon K.
Anvil Arms
No worries Jon.....................Its all good! Let us know when you have
em AR's available!

veeklog
09-03-2008, 5:49 PM
Gentelmen,

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for the assistance!

Also, the comments about my comments were duly noted, my post has been edited and an official apology offered.. :)

Jon K.
Anvil Arms

Everyone is being overly sensetive. I was born and raised in California, and hate the restrictions as much as everyone else; I wish I could buy whatever I want, but that is not the case here. A lot of AR manufacturers treat as second rate citizens here in California and won't even sell direct to us!! Jon is one of the few AR manufacturers reaching out to us and willing to work with us here in Cali. He is also not afraid to be bullied by the DOJ or listen to their FUDD. So please guys, don't give him a hard time for a few words. Jon is only trying to help us in California.

On a more personal note, Jon is a great guy to deal with, and his engravings are top notch!! He has done five engravings for me, and they have looked great. He and Emily return phone calls and emails, and always they appease their customers. I would buy again from Jon anytime!! :D

getafterit
09-03-2008, 6:37 PM
Jon, I certainly appreciate the attempt to reach out to Californians, but, so far as I'm concerned, and I don't speak for anybody but ME, you can drop the condescending "Free state" and "People's Republic" stuff. It's really tired.


I for one dont appreciate.....Ohh what the hell! Jon, your right. It is a commy state....Now Im pissed! This peoples republic of SALLYFORNIA really have me bummed.

bwiese
09-03-2008, 7:57 PM
Jon, thank you for supporting Californians! It's appreciated.




1) Which of these things is officially recognized as "100% CA Legal"?


When you follow the law, you are 100% California legal.
And that which is not prohibited by law is legal.
Rifle parts and rifles do not need to be 'approved' in California.

A bit of background: some midlevel staff in our DOJ Bureau of Firearms are essentially in control by the Brady campaign, etc. [We've used records act requests to get the communications.] They are/were very disconcerted by "off-list" rifles and tried to cause a lot of problems for us in 2006. Some of us felt like we'd visited the proctologist. In fact certain DOJ BoF staffers felt so cornered by these matters after they'd taken hold, they stopped issuing approval letters for just about any firearm item and would just say "talk to your attorney".

However, with mass group purchasing of rifles, the very questionable departure of a senior DOJ BoF agent in a downward transfer over to SFPD (he's in internal affairs because no one wants to serve with him), the backing of NRA & its CA lawyers at Trutanich-Michel, 100% victories over CA DAs who didn't understand the laws and tried to charge folks with AW possession, and the failure of new DOJ BoF regulations to be adopted, these issues and the related 'drama' have died down.

It's a fait accompli, and many CA FFLs sell off-list ARs and AKs today: these stores' inventories survive DOJ BoF audits quite nicely.

You should indeed configure your rifles to be CA legal. Or you can remove evil features from them and ship those items separately.

This means (generally, and briefly):
(1) "Bullet button"/10rd fixed magazine using tool for removal allows evil feautres to be present;
(2) Special MonsterMan grip or special U15 stock allows detachable magazine (without any special mag locking device) but no evil features.
(3) Rimfire rifles are exempt;
(4) Semiauto pistols of any sort can't have threaded bbls;
(5) 'Evil features' for CA semiauto centerfire rifles are pistol grip, folder, thumbhole or collapsible stock, flash hider. Bayo lugs are not controlled by CA law.
(5) Semiauto centerfire rifles must be 30" or longer (even when stock folded!)
(6) 'Constructive possession' does not apply to separated parts of a Calif AW. The purchaser can configure the separated rifle parts himself in such a sequence to not violate CA laws. I would say if mailing separated rifle parts to a CA FFL for a CA buyer that it may be wise to send certain parts separately: just taking a grip off an AK (rendering it featureless) and throwing it in the box is a little too close for comfort.


Please feel free to ask here, or in the 2nd Amend/Legal forum, about specific combinations of features for your products.

Calguns has a most excellent AW Flowchart useful in determining legality of a given configuration.

BTW if you are perchance (unlikely, the floodgates are open) contacted by the Calif DOJ BoF, don't respond to phone requests, ask for anything in writing. They'll clam up after that.

You also have protection in our Penal Code from AW charges since 12280(a)PC [the heart of our AW ban] is prefaced with the phrase, "Whoever, within this state, .....<blah illegal unreg'd AWs blah....>". That doesn't mean you should violate any CA laws, it just is a very raised threshold for outsiders. Follow what we've outlined here and you're A-OK.


2) I need to locate the manufacturers (Not dealers, but the people that actually make the items) of these items so I can buy some to have on hand for you guys when these parts are ordered.

http://www.monstermangrip.com

http://www.californiarifles.com

Clinton (MMG) & Grant (U15 stock) are great guys.



3) Which of the various grips, stocks and magazine catches are the most popular?Lotsa folks run BulletButtons now because they allow all evil features, and if the rifle jams the mag can be removed with a tool. (Our formal regulatory legal definition of 'detachable magazine' allows it to be removed, as long as it takes a tool.)

MonsterMan grips do not meet the formal legal description of a pistol grip, and offer a rifle that's topologically identical to ordinary rifles (i.e, can't get the hand behind the grip). They are very popular too because folks who own hicap mags before CA's 2000 ban can use them in these 'featureless' builds.

The U15 stock is a real work of art, and costs a bit due to mfg costs and its specialty marketplace. It cannot be considered a thumbhole stock due to that latter item's formal legal definition, but is very ergonomic.

tankerman
09-03-2008, 8:47 PM
Thanks for posting.

Looking forward to sending some busness your way once you are set up for California sales.

Hoop
09-03-2008, 8:53 PM
He probably sees alot of Californias on different gun boards talk the same way about their home state. I appreciate the fact he trying to help also, Im not offended.

a BIG +1 for that, our money is just as green as anyone's (and we spend lots too).

Jpach
09-03-2008, 9:21 PM
I really dont see how anyone on here can get even slightly offended by what Jon said. I could maybe understand someone being offended if they drafted the terrible laws we have or support them, but I think its safe to say that all of us on this forum are against them. Is it really offensive for an out-of-stater to AGREE with us about our weapon restrictions? The man is trying to help US out unlike the many other dealers/AR manufacturers in free states that wont. Please guys.

cal_ar_shooter
09-03-2008, 9:28 PM
I really dont see how anyone on here can get even slightly offended by what Jon said. I could maybe understand someone being offended if they drafted the terrible laws we have or support them, but I think its safe to say that all of us on this forum are against them. Is it really offensive for an out-of-stater to AGREE with us about our weapon restrictions? The man is trying to help US out unlike the many other dealers/AR manufacturers in free states that wont. Please guys.

+1

Thank you Jon for helping us in Cal.:)

devildog999
09-03-2008, 9:49 PM
I really dont see how anyone on here can get even slightly offended by what Jon said. I could maybe understand someone being offended if they drafted the terrible laws we have or support them, but I think its safe to say that all of us on this forum are against them. Is it really offensive for an out-of-stater to AGREE with us about our weapon restrictions? The man is trying to help US out unlike the many other dealers/AR manufacturers in free states that wont. Please guys.

+2

It is a bit asanine to get pissy with a manufacture that wants to help us ;) After all, he does sell a product we all need, want, and desire.

Gator Monroe
09-03-2008, 10:02 PM
He probably sees alot of Californias on different gun boards talk the same way about their home state. I appreciate the fact he trying to help also, Im not offended.

Even though it was Subdued (Par to my standards) I think I was ever so slightly offended (After you guys pointed it out)

tenpercentfirearms
09-03-2008, 10:06 PM
Here is another vote for people to get over it. I used to call us the PRK all the time on other forums and I always refer to the rest of the United States at "Free America". The truth hurts some people I guess. Jon, say what you want. You won't lose any business over it and will only gain business for asking questions and trying to cater to the CA crowd.

jandmtv
09-03-2008, 10:08 PM
The only thing offensive is out gun laws!

getafterit
09-04-2008, 5:08 AM
Hey guys, I just wanted to add that sometimes people from other states get irritated with California not just because of gun laws. Califonia leads the way in enviromental issues too, not just gun laws. It seems that all to often other states follow california's lead. So I can understand why some would get upset and make comment about California being a "__________" state.
Lets not loose site of what Jon is trying to do for us.

motorhead
09-04-2008, 7:55 AM
even thougfh i'm an ak man i feel the need to step up and thank jon for his interest in bringing more oll's to us. we take a lot of abuse living in occupied territory, i for one have developed a fairly thick skin and only react to comments like "you deserve it", etc.. i use the expressions myself to emphasize my disgust with our nanny state laws.

BroncoBob
09-04-2008, 8:20 AM
Anytime an out of state vendor offers their services we should keep our sensitive feelings to ourselves. It is not like they are beating down the doors to work with our insane firearm laws.

Jon I want to thank you for being interesting in supporting us out in here California.

Gator Monroe
09-04-2008, 8:32 AM
Ca. could be / and in some cases is up to 20% of all Firearm / Shooting sports related sales of "most" of the Larger Gun manufacturers and Web based Firearm related sellers/vendors domestic sales yearly and this even with a bias against doing some forms of sales with the Golden State ?

Mississippi
09-04-2008, 9:46 AM
Anvil Arms lowers are great!

I am glad their on board!

eltee
09-04-2008, 11:52 AM
Jon,
I'd suggest spending some time on the California Department of Justice, Firearms Division website: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html to read for yourself the "official" positions taken by the state. Second, you may want to go ahead and sign up for the California Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC) from that website so that you can legally start shipping OLL's or complete rifles to California FFL's.

Lots of good advice on this site, and your intentions to sell to us are appreciated.

Wyseguy
09-04-2008, 1:55 PM
I, for one, am looking forward to purchasing one of his AK's!

Whiskey_Sauer
09-04-2008, 2:14 PM
Greetings Gentlemen,
NOTE: Post edited to remove the completely UNINTENTIONALY offensive comments that were said 100% in a friendly sort of way about California not being a free state.

In no way what ever did I mean to offend anyone, only to acknowledge that those of us living outside your state really do understand your predicament and we feel your pain.

That is exactly why as President of the company I decided to continue selling receivers to people in your state and NOT to charge any additional fees to you even though we have to do more paperwork to sell to people in your state than in any of the other states in this country. Extra phone calls to get that silly number, extra time entering stuff in the computer to get a special permission slip that we have to copy and send with the receivers and weI have to keep on file for years. Like we don’t already have to keep enough files and records.

I humbly apologize for the remarks and honestly regret that they were considered offensive by anyone.


Jon, don't worry about it. Many of us here agree with you, and consider ourselves "trapped behind enemy lines."

M. Sage
09-04-2008, 4:12 PM
Another dealer willing to sell into CA! Always welcome!

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate.

BTW, the 2nd Amendment forum is usually where people ask about and discuss legalities of CA.

If you need anything, just ask. We're (usually :p) pretty friendly here.

And don't worry about "free state" and "PRK" too much. Most of us say those things, too.

Knight
09-04-2008, 4:17 PM
Thanks for taking the time to learn our convoluted laws. I will be purchasing an AR-15 lower in the near future, and I am now certain that it will be from Anvil Arms.

viras
09-04-2008, 6:50 PM
Jon, thanks for working with us and our ridiculous laws!

Also, I wanted to mention that I really like the logo in this pic:

http://www.anvilarms.com/skins/Skin_1/images/AA_Web_header.gif

Do you offer any other lowers with other variations of your company logo?

Jon-Anvil_Arms
09-04-2008, 9:15 PM
Gentlemen,

Thanks to all of you for the support and kind words! First a few comments/responses to some of the posts here and then onto business:

“you may want to go ahead and sign up for the California Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC)”
### I did that 30 minutes after I got the mail from your Atty. General. I would have done it sooner but it took awhile to make the website work. And then there is the password they require, must be exactly so many digits, (I think is was 8), must contain both upper and lower case letters and some numbers… you would think it was a password for a nuclear warhead or something.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html to read for yourself the "official" positions taken by the state.
#### Thanks!! When I get an extra coupe hours I don’t need for anything else, I’ll visit :)

Also, I wanted to mention that I really like the logo in this pic: - Do you offer any other lowers with other variations of your company logo?
#### Thanks! Currently no, the only logo we offer on our receivers can be seen on our website on the receivers page. The current receiver logo is the “Original” logo that I had come up with on my own. After we had filed the papers with the ATF and had the $900 die made my graphics guy made the new one that we use on everything else now. They are actually fairly close, the receiver one is a bit “Cleaner” and simper. One day we will probably have a new die made and file all the necessary papers to change it. Once we do the new one will be “The one.”

Now, onto this “What’s legal in California” issue…

I “THINK” I sort of understand your rules now. PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong and feel free to comment on, expand on or further clarify the following:

1) There is no state system, or approved method to officially recognized parts as being legal but certain parts have been generally accepted by the local industry to qualify.

2) No restrictions on bayonet lugs.

3) No collapsible stocks. Would it work if it was pinned in place? We do this a lot for people in Massachusetts. It give the flexibility of allowing pinning in any position so that they can be comfortable when shooting.

4) No vertical forward grips

5) If you use a monster grip or the U15 you can use detachable magazines (I Assume that means a “Normal” magazine catch/button?) otherwise you have to use something like the bullet button. (Are there other options to the bullet button? Are they as user friendly/popular? – I could not find anything on the Prince50 maglock, but I did send user Prince50 an email asking for info on his products)

6) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine capacity limits?

7) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

8) When using the bullet button are there still magazine capacity limits?

9) When using the bullet button are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

Standing by!

Jon K.

Jon@AnvilArm.com

NSR500
09-04-2008, 9:26 PM
Jon, I'll leave it to the more Senior 2A guys like bweise & hoffmang to handle the Legal Speak. I just wanted to share my appreciation for you supporting Californians. My TX Buddies always ask me why I still bother buying firearms in CA when I am here. I tell them to support the 2A in CA, and some of them just don't get it and write CA off as a lost cause.
Little do some non-Californians understand, that if you don't fight it here the Anti-2A movement spreads out to the rest of America.
Thank you for being another one of the Courageous Manufacturers who will still do Direct Business with California customers and FFL's!

gsxr600booya
09-04-2008, 9:28 PM
alright to answer a few of your questions regardless of set up the max round ct for mags can be 10, unless you personally owned hicaps before the aw ban.
you can also have a collapsible stock with the bullet button setup.

NSR500
09-04-2008, 9:32 PM
BTW...

This may answer some of your questions too Jon: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
The rest of your questions I'd leave to bweise & hoffmang since they are amongst the most Senior folks who managed to navigate the CA Legal System best. They are also both very clear & concise in breaking things down for folks to understand.

devildog999
09-04-2008, 9:39 PM
Gentlemen,

Thanks to all of you for the support and kind words! First a few comments/responses to some of the posts here and then onto business:

“you may want to go ahead and sign up for the California Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC)”
### I did that 30 minutes after I got the mail from your Atty. General. I would have done it sooner but it took awhile to make the website work. And then there is the password they require, must be exactly so many digits, (I think is was 8), must contain both upper and lower case letters and some numbers… you would think it was a password for a nuclear warhead or something.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html to read for yourself the "official" positions taken by the state.
#### Thanks!! When I get an extra coupe hours I don’t need for anything else, I’ll visit :)

Also, I wanted to mention that I really like the logo in this pic: - Do you offer any other lowers with other variations of your company logo?
#### Thanks! Currently no, the only logo we offer on our receivers can be seen on our website on the receivers page. The current receiver logo is the “Original” logo that I had come up with on my own. After we had filed the papers with the ATF and had the $900 die made my graphics guy made the new one that we use on everything else now. They are actually fairly close, the receiver one is a bit “Cleaner” and simper. One day we will probably have a new die made and file all the necessary papers to change it. Once we do the new one will be “The one.”

Now, onto this “What’s legal in California” issue…

I “THINK” I sort of understand your rules now. PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong and feel free to comment on, expand on or further clarify the following:

1) There is no state system, or approved method to officially recognized parts as being legal but certain parts have been generally accepted by the local industry to qualify.

2) No restrictions on bayonet lugs.

3) No collapsible stocks. Would it work if it was pinned in place? We do this a lot for people in Massachusetts. It give the flexibility of allowing pinning in any position so that they can be comfortable when shooting.

4) No vertical forward grips

5) If you use a monster grip or the U15 you can use detachable magazines (I Assume that means a “Normal” magazine catch/button?) otherwise you have to use something like the bullet button. (Are there other options to the bullet button? Are they as user friendly/popular? – I could not find anything on the Prince50 maglock, but I did send user Prince50 an email asking for info on his products)

6) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine capacity limits?

7) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

8) When using the bullet button are there still magazine capacity limits?

9) When using the bullet button are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

Standing by!

Jon K.

Jon@AnvilArm.com


3) No collapsible stocks. Would it work if it was pinned in place? We do this a lot for people in Massachusetts. It give the flexibility of allowing pinning in any position so that they can be comfortable when shooting.

As for this one, don't know for sure if you have no BB, but I would think pinning it in place is OK as it is no longer collapsible, but I could be wrong.


4) No vertical forward grips

If you have a BB (bullet button) you can have ALL the "evil features" that define an AW.

5) If you use a monster grip or the U15 you can use detachable magazines (I Assume that means a “Normal” magazine catch/button?) otherwise you have to use something like the bullet button. (Are there other options to the bullet button? Are they as user friendly/popular? – I could not find anything on the Prince50 maglock, but I did send user Prince50 an email asking for info on his products)

If you remove ALL "evil features", you can have a regular detachable magazine. However, you have to follow the 10 rnd magazine capacity unless you owned high capacity magazines before the 2000 ban.


6) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine capacity limits?

Yes, unless you have high capacity magazines YOU owned before the 2000 ban on them as stated above.


7) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

Yes and no..... If you owned a high capacity mag before 2000 as stated above, you can use it. Other wise you have to use 10 rnd mags :(

8) When using the bullet button are there still magazine capacity limits?

YES, you MUST use only 10 rnd mags.

9) When using the bullet button are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

You have to use only 10 rnd mags if using a BB :(

If any info I gave is incorrect, some please correct, but I am sure I got it all right.

domokun
09-04-2008, 9:48 PM
Gentlemen,

Thanks to all of you for the support and kind words! First a few comments/responses to some of the posts here and then onto business:

“you may want to go ahead and sign up for the California Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC)”
### I did that 30 minutes after I got the mail from your Atty. General. I would have done it sooner but it took awhile to make the website work. And then there is the password they require, must be exactly so many digits, (I think is was 8), must contain both upper and lower case letters and some numbers… you would think it was a password for a nuclear warhead or something.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html to read for yourself the "official" positions taken by the state.
#### Thanks!! When I get an extra coupe hours I don’t need for anything else, I’ll visit :)

Also, I wanted to mention that I really like the logo in this pic: - Do you offer any other lowers with other variations of your company logo?
#### Thanks! Currently no, the only logo we offer on our receivers can be seen on our website on the receivers page. The current receiver logo is the “Original” logo that I had come up with on my own. After we had filed the papers with the ATF and had the $900 die made my graphics guy made the new one that we use on everything else now. They are actually fairly close, the receiver one is a bit “Cleaner” and simper. One day we will probably have a new die made and file all the necessary papers to change it. Once we do the new one will be “The one.”

Now, onto this “What’s legal in California” issue…

I “THINK” I sort of understand your rules now. PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong and feel free to comment on, expand on or further clarify the following:

1) There is no state system, or approved method to officially recognized parts as being legal but certain parts have been generally accepted by the local industry to qualify.

As per bwise's post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1492968&postcount=16), that is mostly correct. The stated methods of rendering an OLL rifle CA legal is compliant to the letter of the laws in CA.

2) No restrictions on bayonet lugs.

That is correct.

3) No collapsible stocks. Would it work if it was pinned in place? We do this a lot for people in Massachusetts. It give the flexibility of allowing pinning in any position so that they can be comfortable when shooting.

False. Please see CA AW Flowchart linked above in the header or the reply below this quote block. Collapsable stocks are OK as long as the lower receiver has a B-15/Bullet Button/Prince50 magazine lock installed in place of the standard magazine release button and the overall length of the rifle is over 30 inches with the stock collapsed.


4) No vertical forward grips.

False. Please see CA AW Flowchart linked above in the header or the reply below this quote block. Forward vertical grips are OK as long as the lower receiver has a B-15/Bullet Button/Prince50 magazine lock installed in place of the standard magazine release button.

5) If you use a monster grip or the U15 you can use detachable magazines (I Assume that means a “Normal” magazine catch/button?) otherwise you have to use something like the bullet button. (Are there other options to the bullet button? Are they as user friendly/popular? – I could not find anything on the Prince50 maglock, but I did send user Prince50 an email asking for info on his products)

Using a U15 or MonsterMan grip, you can use the normal magazine catch provided that there aren't any banned features installed on the rifle (pistol grip, forward pistol grip, flash supressor, folding/collapsible stock, thumbhole stock, grenade/flare launcher).

If a rifle has any of the banned features it must have a Prince50/Bullet Button/U-15 magazine locked installed on the lower receiver in place of the of the standard magazine release button.

The Prince50 magazine lock forces the user to pull the rear takedown pin and top load the ammunition into the magazine.

The Bullet Button allows you to remove the magazine via the use of a tool (i.e. bullet tip, chopstick, bobby pin, etc.) due to the fact that the bullet button renders the rifle into an "attachable magazine" configuration and thus legal since the magazine cannot never be detached from the rifle without the use of a tool.

The B-15 bullet button design allows for the Prince50 magazine lock to be transformed into a "bullet button" configuration by placing an attachment over the Prince50 magazine lock/release lever that forces the user to have to use a tool to drop the magazine.

6) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine capacity limits?

No. You may use any magazine of any capacity; including "large capacity" magazines purchased prior to the "large capacity" magazine ban that took effect on 1/1/2000.

7) When using the monster grip/U15 are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

No. You just need to have purchased the magazine prior to the "large capacity" magazine ban on 1/1/2000. Additionally, it's legal to rebuild a worn out pre-ban magazine with new parts that were purchased prior to the "large capacity" magazine ban with a new magazine provided that you don't end up with more "large capacity" magazines than you started with originally.

8) When using the bullet button are there still magazine capacity limits?

Yes. 10 rounds or less. Otherwise it's classified as an assault weapon.

9) When using the bullet button are there still magazine “age” limits – do you need to use magazines made before some certain date?

Magazines used with bullet button configured OLL rifles cannot hold more than 10 rounds in them as per the reply in question #9. The date the magazine was manufactured is irrelevant in this situation.

Standing by!

Jon K.

Jon@AnvilArm.com

Please see the following "Calguns AW ID Flowchart" (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf) to clarify most of the questions you have. See replies bold as well.

5968
09-04-2008, 11:14 PM
Greetings Gentlemen,

As some of you may know we are located in Florida , far from California and the restrictive firearms rules you guys must endure, so I am not real familiar with them and the various legal methods you folks use to accommodate said restrictive rules.

We manufacture AR15 type weapons and have been selling more and more to folks living in California. I'm sure if I read this board long enough I'll probably find the answers to my questions, but to be honest right now it is all I can do to break away from the shop and come inside to write this. We don't have a big crew like some of the big boys, we are just a small operation trying to make the very best product possible and at the same time keep the prices reasonable.

Oh yes, I guess it should be obvious, we are definitely an off list AR manufacturer! :cool2:

Lately I have had more and more people ask me about installing your bullet button and some other kind of magazine catch that seems to be accepted by your leaders.

I have also had questions about installing that funny looking stock that uses a padded receiver extension (buffer tube) and the odd looking slanted back grip.

I have seen some pictures of these items but I could use your help in the following areas:

1) Which of these things is officially recognized as "100% CA Legal"?

2) I need to locate the manufacturers (Not dealers, but the people that actually make the items) of these items so I can buy some to have on hand for you guys when these parts are ordered.

3) Which of the various grips, stocks and magazine catches are the most popular?

Any assistance on this will be much appreciated.

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

863-398-4460

Email: Jon@AnvilArms.com

www.AnvilArms.com (http://www.AnvilArms.com)

Lifetime NRA Member (http://www.nra.org/)

NOTE: Post edited to remove the completely UNINTENTIONALY offensive comments that were said 100% in a friendly sort of way about California not being a free state.

In no way what ever did I mean to offend anyone, only to acknowledge that those of us living outside your state really do understand your predicament and we feel your pain.

That is exactly why as President of the company I decided to continue selling receivers to people in your state and NOT to charge any additional fees to you even though we have to do more paperwork to sell to people in your state than in any of the other states in this country. Extra phone calls to get that silly number, extra time entering stuff in the computer to get a special permission slip that we have to copy and send with the receivers and weI have to keep on file for years. Like we don’t already have to keep enough files and records.

I humbly apologize for the remarks and honestly regret that they were considered offensive by anyone.

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

Thanks for taking the time to join our forum. It nice to see an out of state dealer trying to make some sense of our crazy gun laws and offer a supporting hand.

Jon-Anvil_Arms
10-25-2008, 12:56 PM
Greetings Guys,

I appreciate all the previous assistance you guys gave me and now, I have yet another question.

We have registered AA15 pistol lower receivers. I have recently had 2 individuals ask about us shipping them into California as pistols.

One individual stated he was a LEO and could get (If needed) an authorization on departmental letter head. The other is a civilian and wants one.

So.... what is the deal? Is this allowed? Anything special I need to do? Anything special the transfer dealer or client need to do?

Thanks in advance,

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

863-398-4460

Email: Jon@AnvilArms.com

www.AnvilArms.com (http://www.AnvilArms.com)

Lifetime NRA Member (http://www.nra.org/)

[url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=244]ARFCOM Industry

DedEye
10-25-2008, 1:55 PM
Greetings Guys,

I appreciate all the previous assistance you guys gave me and now, I have yet another question.

We have registered AA15 pistol lower receivers. I have recently had 2 individuals ask about us shipping them into California as pistols.

One individual stated he was a LEO and could get (If needed) an authorization on departmental letter head. The other is a civilian and wants one.

So.... what is the deal? Is this allowed? Anything special I need to do? Anything special the transfer dealer or client need to do?

Thanks in advance,

Jon Kruger
President, Anvil Arms LLC
Lakeland, FL.

863-398-4460

Email: Jon@AnvilArms.com

www.AnvilArms.com (http://www.AnvilArms.com)

Lifetime NRA Member (http://www.nra.org/)

[url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=244]ARFCOM Industry

In order to get a pistol lower in California, it must either pass the drop safety test or be exempt as a single action revolver, or a single shot pistol.

As a result, AR pistol receivers must be configured as single shot only in order to legally enter the state. From there, they can be reconfigured as semi-auto, "attachable" (Bullet button) mag pistols. My advice would be to create some sort of sled or 0-round magazine that you can lock in place using a bullet button. Perhaps require a deposit for the magazine sled so that the user you ship the pistol lower to can legally reconfigure it and return the sled to you for use on another pistol lower.

till44
10-25-2008, 2:53 PM
Jon at Anvil is great. This is a company that is really working hard to accomodate us here in CA, where it seems so many other companies are scared away by the restrictive laws that other states don't have to deal with. I e-mailed Jon just yesterday concerning the pistol lower (not the guy with the LEO letter) and it is great to see him already working to see if he can ship them here. And his prices are some of the cheapest out there, $100 for a stripped lower, including custom lazer engraving.

Greenspartan117
10-25-2008, 3:13 PM
Anvil Arms has a really good rep on other boards as being a top notch AR manufacturer. I'm glad to hear that you are willing to work with our "advanced and ultra liberal regulations." Bwise and everyone else has already answered your questions, Thank you for supporting Californians.

Greenspartan117

rastro
10-25-2008, 3:19 PM
If Jon does decide to ship to us, we could have him laser engrave something like, "CA registered pistol, non-detachable magazine. 12276.1(a)(4) compliant" and the Calguns logo on the side!

Group buy anyone? :43:

psssniper
10-25-2008, 4:05 PM
PRK, Kalifornia, Commiefornia, etc. I can roll with all that
but please, don't call it ""kali"" or ""cali""
drives me up the wall :rolleyes:

Thanks Anvil Arms for taking the time and effort to keep us supplied!

MrLogan
10-25-2008, 5:23 PM
Anvil Arms is awesome. Please make a CA-legal pistol receiver for us! :D

s10rick
10-25-2008, 5:47 PM
Ill let the seniors continue with the facts as they know them VERY well... But I definently want to thank you Jon for being open to understanding our local laws and be willing to help us keep the Black Rifle Movement going strong!!

till44
10-28-2008, 7:40 PM
Jon at Anvil just emailed me saying he will ship AR pistol lowers to CA if you send him out a bullet button and bobsled mag..just in case anyone was interested.. also expect complete pistol uppers from them in the next 90 days.

hoffmang
10-28-2008, 9:03 PM
Ok... That's sexy.

-Gene

devildog999
10-28-2008, 9:28 PM
Awesome

hoffmang
10-28-2008, 11:01 PM
One note of clarification for any non LEO buying an AR pistol this way.

Not only do you need to send a magazine lock and a magazine sled to Anvil, but Anvil has to send a completed firearm including upper, lock, and sled to the CA FFL to qualify for the single shot exemption.

-Gene

till44
10-29-2008, 12:15 AM
One note of clarification for any non LEO buying an AR pistol this way.

Not only do you need to send a magazine lock and a magazine sled to Anvil, but Anvil has to send a completed firearm including upper, lock, and sled to the CA FFL to qualify for the single shot exemption.

-Gene

As I understood it a complete PISTOL does not have to be sent to the FFL, but a complete rifle is needed to complete the DROS. So you could have the complete lower sent to the FFL and the bring in/send in a complete upper (rifle or pistol length) before starting DROS. Let me know if I am wrong...

aplinker
10-29-2008, 12:52 AM
As I understood it a complete rifle does not have to be sent to the FFL, but a complete rifle is needed to complete the DROS. So you could have the complete lower sent to the FFL and the bring in/send in a complete upper (rifle or pistol length) before starting DROS. Let me know if I am wrong...

He's specifically referring the AA's question regarding AR pistols.

AR pistols, if purchased by a non-LEO, would need to be complete single shot firearms to not require being on the certified list. A stripped pistol receiver can not be purchased by a non-LEO.

AR lowers for rifle builds do not need to be shipped or purchased complete.

till44
10-29-2008, 6:07 AM
He's specifically referring the AA's question regarding AR pistols.

AR pistols, if purchased by a non-LEO, would need to be complete single shot firearms to not require being on the certified list. A stripped pistol receiver can not be purchased by a non-LEO.

AR lowers for rifle builds do not need to be shipped or purchased complete.

EDITED an earlier post, I meant complete pitol (upper and lower) not rifle.

What about a complete lower (LPK, bullet button, and fixed single round mag)? Is that able to be shipped into the state?

Also, will that LEO need a dept. letter to recieve the lower, or are they just exempt b/c of their job?

I want one of these bad and am trying to figure it all out.

wikidklown
10-29-2008, 6:46 AM
I apologize to Jon. He is trying to be helpful.

+1 for you on this comment

Jon, thanks for your efforts to help us out!'

alex00
10-29-2008, 9:48 AM
One note of clarification for any non LEO buying an AR pistol this way.

Not only do you need to send a magazine lock and a magazine sled to Anvil, but Anvil has to send a completed firearm including upper, lock, and sled to the CA FFL to qualify for the single shot exemption.

-Gene

I was under the impression from other threads that a lower could be built up at the FFL's shop, as long as the DROS was not started until the pistol was in a single shot configuration.


Also, will that LEO need a dept. letter to recieve the lower, or are they just exempt b/c of their job?

I want one of these bad and am trying to figure it all out.

No, an LEO does not need a letter from their department. The only thing they need a letter for is to skip the 10 day wait. LEOs can buy stripped pistol lowers from willing FFLs. They just might have to drive 337 miles in each direction, twice.

ke6guj
10-29-2008, 10:10 AM
As I understood it a complete PISTOL does not have to be sent to the FFL, but a complete rifle is needed to complete the DROS. So you could have the complete lower sent to the FFL and the bring in/send in a complete upper (rifle or pistol length) before starting DROS. Let me know if I am wrong...


I was under the impression from other threads that a lower could be built up at the FFL's shop, as long as the DROS was not started until the pistol was in a single shot configuration.

Not per the ATF. That would a manufacturing process since the lower belonged to the FFL at that point and the FFL would need to be registered as a manufacturer, pay the extra fees, and would be liable for excise tax if more than 49 were built.

Anvil Arms can complete the pistol, since he is an 07 FFL, but since he has to pay 10 or 11% FET on it, its gonna be passed on.

alex00
10-29-2008, 10:35 AM
Thanks for the clarification.

trinydex
10-29-2008, 12:18 PM
Not per the ATF. That would a manufacturing process since the lower belonged to the FFL at that point and the FFL would need to be registered as a manufacturer, pay the extra fees, and would be liable for excise tax if more than 49 were built.

Anvil Arms can complete the pistol, since he is an 07 FFL, but since he has to pay 10 or 11% FET on it, its gonna be passed on.

is this the reason we should appreciate ffls that bring in and stock pistol marked lowers?

screaming pete
10-29-2008, 12:48 PM
i was never offended at all, sometimes this state sucks, these lowers cost a ton to cnc up. he was careing about what OUR needs were to be california complyet s/p

yellowfin
10-29-2008, 1:42 PM
I have one of Anvil's receivers and I'll be the first to tell ya they're top rate. I talked with the guys over at Gun Vault showing them mine the other day and they're interested in getting them in as quick as they can.

till44
10-31-2008, 7:46 AM
No, an LEO does not need a letter from their department. The only thing they need a letter for is to skip the 10 day wait. LEOs can buy stripped pistol lowers from willing FFLs. They just might have to drive 337 miles in each direction, twice.

What's the legal reason? Are they exempt from the drop test or certified list of pistols? Please explain...

ke6guj
10-31-2008, 9:55 AM
Yes, LEOs can buy non-Rostered handguns, for official or personal use.


12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(4) The sale or purchase of any pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, if the pistol, revolver, or other firearm is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, any police department, any sheriff's official, any marshal's office, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency, the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this section prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

till44
10-31-2008, 10:06 AM
Thanks, good to know.

bwiese
10-31-2008, 10:56 AM
Dammit, I see an accumulation of misinformation about AR pistols here.
People start making friggin' assumptions.

A CA FFL should *NOT* do any conversion to Roster-exempt single-shot status and should not build up an AR pistol from an imported pistol receiver.
Period.

Pistol receivers with sleds affixed with BBs do not qualify as complete firearms.There was even a DOJ bulletin in Spring of 2006 discussing that single-shot pistols needed to be imported/sold complete and not just sold as a stripped receiver to later have a barrel added by owner. This was apparently to address people buying bare unbarreled T/C Contender frames. This bulletin may have been "lost in the noise" in between all of Alison's panicked "we're gonna list in two weeks" unsigned OLL memos.
Single-shot AR pistols should enter CA AS COMPLETE OPERATIONAL SINGLE-SHOT PISTOLS, due to murkiness in prefatory language in 12125PC et seq.

Also, remember that to be Roster-exempt single-shot pistol per 12133PC, the pistol must have a 6" min bbl length and a 10.5" min overall length (measured parallel to bore). This is not hard to achieve on an AR pistol but would be a bit more weird for importation of non-Rostered 1911s and require a specialty bbl.

bwiese
10-31-2008, 10:58 AM
is this the reason we should appreciate ffls that bring in and stock pistol marked lowers?

You should not appreciate them at all as these lowers cannot be transferred to nonLEOs, and the FFL cannot make a pistol from them.

Right now, no CA FFL should import AR pistol lowers and try to make pistols from them.

aplinker
10-31-2008, 11:36 AM
More specifically, the exemption contains a barrel length and an OAL. Without it being a complete gun it can NOT be exempt.

I agree, this trend is disturbing, but hey... it's their FFL on the line.

Dammit, I see an accumulation of misinformation about AR pistols here.
People start making friggin' assumptions.

A CA FFL should *NOT* do any conversion to Roster-exempt single-shot status and should not build up an AR pistol from an imported pistol receiver.
Period.

Pistol receivers with sleds affixed with BBs do not qualify as complete firearms.There was even a DOJ bulletin in Spring of 2006 discussing that single-shot pistols needed to be imported/sold complete and not just sold as a stripped receiver to later have a barrel added by owner. This was apparently to address people buying bare unbarreled T/C Contender frames. This bulletin may have been "lost in the noise" in between all of Alison's panicked "we're gonna list in two weeks" unsigned OLL memos.
Single-shot AR pistols should enter CA AS COMPLETE OPERATIONAL SINGLE-SHOT PISTOLS, due to murkiness in prefatory language in 12125PC et seq.

Also, remember that to be Roster-exempt single-shot pistol per 12133PC, the pistol must have a 6" min bbl length and a 10.5" min overall length (measured parallel to bore). This is not hard to achieve on an AR pistol but would be a bit more weird for importation of non-Rostered 1911s and require a specialty bbl.

trinydex
10-31-2008, 12:05 PM
You should not appreciate them at all as these lowers cannot be transferred to nonLEOs, and the FFL cannot make a pistol from them.

Right now, no CA FFL should import AR pistol lowers and try to make pistols from them.

gottit, your post above clears it up.

till44
11-01-2008, 7:11 AM
Dammit, I see an accumulation of misinformation about AR pistols here.
People start making friggin' assumptions.

A CA FFL should *NOT* do any conversion to Roster-exempt single-shot status and should not build up an AR pistol from an imported pistol receiver.
Period.

Pistol receivers with sleds affixed with BBs do not qualify as complete firearms.There was even a DOJ bulletin in Spring of 2006 discussing that single-shot pistols needed to be imported/sold complete and not just sold as a stripped receiver to later have a barrel added by owner. This was apparently to address people buying bare unbarreled T/C Contender frames. This bulletin may have been "lost in the noise" in between all of Alison's panicked "we're gonna list in two weeks" unsigned OLL memos.
Single-shot AR pistols should enter CA AS COMPLETE OPERATIONAL SINGLE-SHOT PISTOLS, due to murkiness in prefatory language in 12125PC et seq.

Also, remember that to be Roster-exempt single-shot pistol per 12133PC, the pistol must have a 6" min bbl length and a 10.5" min overall length (measured parallel to bore). This is not hard to achieve on an AR pistol but would be a bit more weird for importation of non-Rostered 1911s and require a specialty bbl.

That was much clearer than anything in the past. Now one more question to clear a bit more up. Thios concerns LEO that someone else mentioned. It was mentioned that LEO can have a stripped pistol lower shipped into the state. Is that true? Or just asnother assumption?

Mute
11-01-2008, 7:14 PM
Jon,

Thanks for supporting us poor downtrodden Californians. I hope we can return the favor by supporting you with our business. Good luck.

tyan
11-01-2008, 7:36 PM
Jon, thanks for supporting us here in CA.

I will order 6x lower and 1 upper from Anvil Arms very soon. Just need to finish my illustrations for the laser engraving. So, let me know if those parts are in stock and ready to ship.

Haplo
11-01-2008, 9:22 PM
So I'm trying to understand what's going on here...is it correct that all we need to do is send Anvil Arms a couple parts (bullet button etc) and Anvil can send out a compliant single shot pistol lower?

bwiese
11-01-2008, 9:26 PM
That was much clearer than anything in the past. Now one more question to clear a bit more up. Thios concerns LEO that someone else mentioned. It was mentioned that LEO can have a stripped pistol lower shipped into the state. Is that true? Or just asnother assumption?

Yes, LEOs are exempt from having to purchase Rostered handguns.

So an LEO can purchase a non-Rostered handgun or handgun frame.

bwiese
11-01-2008, 9:33 PM
So I'm trying to understand what's going on here...is it correct that all we need to do is send Anvil Arms a couple parts (bullet button etc) and Anvil can send out a compliant single shot pistol lower?

NO. Please read my detailed item several posts above.

Single-shot AR pistols should enter CA AS COMPLETE OPERATIONAL SINGLE-SHOT PISTOLS, due to murkiness in prefatory language in 12125PC et seq.

For non-LEOs there's no effective way to get a pistol lower sold to you. (Limited exceptions for intrafamily transfer & inheritance.)
A lower cannot be transferred to you (for now; we can fight this but it ain't worth the drama). A complete dimensionally-compliant Roster-exempt handgun can be, however.

Anvil would have to supply/acquire a pistol upper and it'd have to be rendered into complete sledded pistol before entering CA to your FFL.

DANGER#1: You should NOT acquire a pistol upper first, in an attempt to help your pistol receiver vendor out and assemble your gun: if you already own an AR rifle/rifle receiver or you could get into trouble for 'constructive possession of an SBR'. If you ordered the pistol upper and had it sent to your vendor (like Anvil Arms) that'd be OK - but make sure the pistol upper DOES NOT SHOW UP ON YOUR DOORSTEP.

DANGER#2: FFLs selling pistol lowers that don't have mfgr licence and pay excise tax should not be assembling lowers into pistols.


Also, remember that to be Roster-exempt single-shot pistol per 12133PC, the pistol must have a 6" min bbl length and min 10.5" overall length (when measured parallel to the bore).

till44
11-01-2008, 11:24 PM
Yes, LEOs are exempt from having to purchase Rostered handguns.

So an LEO can purchase a non-Rostered handgun or handgun frame.

OK, so one more thing to clear up. Now an LEO can purchase a non-rostered handgun frame, so does that include a pistol lower with LPK? Or must it be a stripped lower?

My Summary, As I understand:

For LEO: May purchase stripped lower or complete AR pistol. (??? Lower with LPK???)

For non-LEO: Must purchase a complete pistol, rendered as a single shot when first purchased.

Correct me if I am missing anything.

bwiese
11-02-2008, 11:42 AM
OK, so one more thing to clear up. Now an LEO can purchase a non-rostered handgun frame, so does that include a pistol lower with LPK? Or must it be a stripped lower?

There's no legal differentiation between a stripped lower and a lower that has parts in it.



For non-LEO: Must purchase a complete pistol, rendered as a single shot when first purchased.

For 'imported'-from-outside-CA guns, because they are non-Rostered.

If your buddy down the street happened to already have a legit AR pistol that was not an AW (i.e, fixed 10rd mag etc) he could PPT it to you without regards for Rostering status (and no single-shot exemption required).

diginit
11-02-2008, 4:52 PM
I'll make it easy for ya, Jon. I just want a stripped lower for a 5.56 rifle build with the words
WEAPON
___of___
DEFENCE
_______
inscribed on it. I'll be in touch. THANKS!