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N_S
08-28-2008, 1:38 PM
It turns out there's a kink in my plan to buy my first gun. My house happens to be at the intersection of not one, but 4 gun-free zones. Because it's illegal to have a gun within 1000yards.

http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/7986313cac3e2e8e7bd9efe23de93a59.png
This is a satellite image of the area surrounding my house. I live somewhere in the red zone (I won't disclose exactly WHERE).
Blue zones are schools.
The green zone is a community college.
The large pink zone southwest of the city is Sunnyvale Rod and Gun (the small pink zone east of the college is a gun store)

If I am within the intersection of 4 gun-free zones does that mean that
-I can't legally own a gun on my own property.
-I commit 4 felonies by going outside.
-Does that mean that I can go outside when the schools are not in session?

I need answers. Please!

Ironchef
08-28-2008, 1:42 PM
I'd guess and say you're fine in your own home..fully backed by our constitution. However, something like openly carrying (unloaded) on your sidewalk/street/neighborhood would obviously violate law.

I highly doubt the "1000' school zone" law applies to inside your home.

M. Sage
08-28-2008, 1:44 PM
No, it's not illegal to have a gun within a thousand feet of a school. It's illegal to transport it through that zone without locking it in some kind of container (the trunk counts as long as you can't get in without unlocking it). On your property and especially in your home, this doesn't apply at all.

geeknow
08-28-2008, 1:53 PM
No, it's not illegal to have a gun within a thousand feet of a school. It's illegal to transport it through that zone without locking it in some kind of container (the trunk counts as long as you can't get in without unlocking it). On your property and especially in your home, this doesn't apply at all.

does "your property" (from a carrying standpoint) extend to your front yard as well?

thanks

N_S
08-28-2008, 1:54 PM
does "your property" (from a carrying standpoint) extend to your front yard as well?

thanks

I don't have a front yard.

Someoneelseok
08-28-2008, 2:01 PM
I'm no lawyer, so this is just my interpretation...

A clause in California Penal Code 626.9 that might make it legal for you to own guns on YOUR private property.

"(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful."

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/626.9.html

But if you step off your property with a gun it would be a felony. So don't park your car on the roadside if you plan to pack your guns into your car.
Anyone else got any ideas?

jamesob
08-28-2008, 2:01 PM
YOUR GOOD TO GO WITH A GUN AT YOUR HOUSE.

sorensen440
08-28-2008, 2:07 PM
does "your property" (from a carrying standpoint) extend to your front yard as well?

thanks

Yes but that doesn't mean its a good idea while mowing the lawn

tyrist
08-28-2008, 2:19 PM
You can have it in your home and on your private property. Just lock it up when traveling.

Matt C
08-28-2008, 2:43 PM
How did you come up with that map w/ school zones?

Liberty1
08-28-2008, 2:54 PM
I need answers. Please!

Read 626.9 PC (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=626-626.11) and californiaopencarry.org (http://californiaopencarry.org/) for info on general CA laws (there is more info then just OC)

SOneThreeCoupe
08-28-2008, 4:02 PM
I legally have my AR in my apartment, which is about a hundred yards from a school. I transport it in a locked case to and from my car, and keep it in a locked case across my back seat since it will not fit in my trunk.

"626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law."

40caldeserteagle
08-28-2008, 4:33 PM
Why Kerleys ? Have you shopped around for the gun you want ? The last time I was in there they had about 20 handguns and maybe another 30 long guns. The seemed priced a little high too. I could be wrong though, I was there for 20 minutes, literally 5 feet from the salesperson and was not acknowledged (there was a total of three people in the store, including me). He and his buddy were swapping stories. I had money burning a hole in my pocket.

David F.

M. Sage
08-28-2008, 6:39 PM
does "your property" (from a carrying standpoint) extend to your front yard as well?

thanks

For loaded? It's actually iffy and the subject for much debate. For simply having an unlocked gun? Yeah, that's your property, isn't it?

Matt C
08-28-2008, 6:53 PM
For loaded? It's actually iffy and the subject for much debate. For simply having an unlocked gun? Yeah, that's your property, isn't it?

I don't see how that would be particularly subject to debate, from the DOJ's own guide-

Any person over the age of 18 who is not prohibited from possessing firearms, and if otherwise lawful, may keep and carry a firearm or have a firearm loaded at his or her place of residence, temporary residence, campsite, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the person. (Penal Code 12026, 12031(h) and (l).)

and the PC exemption for the school zone-

"(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful."

Nothing in either limits the exception to the interior of a structure on private property, it just says private property. Your living room and your front yard are legally identical in this case, the exterior wall separating them is not any legal boundary.

bulgron
08-28-2008, 7:09 PM
Why Kerleys ? Have you shopped around for the gun you want ? The last time I was in there they had about 20 handguns and maybe another 30 long guns. The seemed priced a little high too. I could be wrong though, I was there for 20 minutes, literally 5 feet from the salesperson and was not acknowledged (there was a total of three people in the store, including me). He and his buddy were swapping stories. I had money burning a hole in my pocket.

David F.

Every time I've been in Kerley's, I've been promptly waited on. I'm pretty sure they have a lot more than 30 long guns in the racks in that store, but I've never actually stood around counting. Didn't look over their handgun selection, since I haven't gone in there looking for one (yet).

For what it's worth, I just put down money on a 10/22 at Kerley's. Could I have saved a few bucks by going somewhere else? Maybe. But then, whatever money I might have saved would have been eaten up in the extra time and gas to get to some other store -- twice.

It isn't like there's a huge selection of stores selling firearms around here, you know. And there's a lot to be said for supporting local merchants.

YMMV

bobbarker
08-28-2008, 7:49 PM
In your own home, as I understand the law, you're fine. They can't prevent you from having it. Soon as you step off your property, you're in violation of the law if it's not locked up. As far as your front yard...I don't know about that. I don't recall where I read it at, but I remember reading that a man was charged(successfully) for Brandishing IN HIS OWN HOME because he would sit at night and clean his weapons, with the blinds open. The allegation was that he left the blinds open to intimidate other's with his collection. I would be wary about having it in the front yard.

CrippledPidgeon
08-28-2008, 8:50 PM
Well Reed's Sport Shop used to be right across the street from a school, and they might have had a gun or two in there :p So once you bought your gun, it needed to be locked when you exited the building.

Guntech
08-28-2008, 8:51 PM
No, it's not illegal to have a gun within a thousand feet of a school. It's illegal to transport it through that zone without locking it in some kind of container (the trunk counts as long as you can't get in without unlocking it). On your property and especially in your home, this doesn't apply at all.

Yeah I have to drive past a school that I live within half of a mine of to go to gun store or pretty much anywhere. Just through it in a locked container and your good to go.

jacques
08-28-2008, 9:03 PM
Yeah I have to drive past a school that I live within half of a mine of to go to gun store or pretty much anywhere. Just through it in a locked container and your good to go.

Agreed, I live right next to 2-schools.

1911_Mitch
08-28-2008, 9:04 PM
How did you come up with that map w/ school zones?



You can use Goggle Earth. Find your house, zoom out a bit, and then search for 'schools'.

Meplat
08-28-2008, 9:21 PM
So, how does this apply to those with a CCW? Do you still have to lock it up?

Guntech
08-28-2008, 9:24 PM
Yeah if you get caught thats a felony.

Meplat
08-28-2008, 9:51 PM
Sucks, how do you know until you get there? I don't expect any trouble from local LE where I know where the schools are but what if I'm traveling through LA or SF, even on the freeway, and run into some asshat zealot?[i]:mad:


Yeah if you get caught thats a felony.

M. Sage
08-28-2008, 10:13 PM
So, how does this apply to those with a CCW? Do you still have to lock it up?

No. You don't have to lock up in a school zone with a CCW. CCW is exempt.

Paladin
08-28-2008, 10:37 PM
No. You don't have to lock up in a school zone with a CCW. CCW is exempt.School zones -- something else that might be vulnerable to a Heller attack.

domokun
08-28-2008, 10:45 PM
Sucks, how do you know until you get there? I don't expect any trouble from local LE where I know where the schools are but what if I'm traveling through LA or SF, even on the freeway, and run into some asshat zealot?[i]:mad:

This is the main reason why I transport all my firearms unloaded and locked up in a case. While traveling through unknown areas, it keeps me out of the problem arising from accidentally driving through a gun free (school) zone with an unloaded firearm that isn't in a locked container.

It also doesn't help that I also live squarely in the middle of that 1000 ft radius foot print of a gun free zone caused by the elementary school I used to attend when I was a youngin'.

Army
08-28-2008, 11:34 PM
BTW, the law only concerns K-12. The Community College will have its own rules.

Theseus
08-29-2008, 8:54 AM
School zones -- something else that might be vulnerable to a Heller attack.

You might be right. . . The argument would have to be that the CCW exemption creates an unfair bias against unregistered persons. Either allow everyone or deny everyone.

fullrearview
08-29-2008, 12:02 PM
I just had weapons violations in class last night. you are exempt for that law.

the text from my P.O.S.T. workbook reads as follows:

It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of a firearm within a school safety zone or on school grounds unless specifically stated in penal code section 626.9

Exceptions:
>Residences, places of business, or private property not part of the school that are within the 1,000 feet area of the school.
>Individuals who possess an unloaded firearm that is locked in a secure container or locked in the trunk of a motor vehicle.

and the rest of the exceptions are for police, on duty military within scope of employment, people under direction to have firearm by school.(If you want more detail on this have of exceptions let me know).

Honestly, I felt that they should have covered things like OLL's and the configurations and we didn't. not the instructors fault, as he was teaching us from the workbook. They do have a comment sheet to fill out and they REALLY take it to heart and I wrote about OLL's and other issues that we have as gun owners.

sorry I can not copy or scan the workbook by any means but if you have questions i will try to answer them.

Matt C
08-29-2008, 12:08 PM
=

sorry I can not copy or scan the workbook by any means but if you have questions i will try to answer them.

Did they go over AWs at all?

jc_stecker
08-29-2008, 4:46 PM
the text from my P.O.S.T. workbook reads as follows:

It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of a firearm within a school safety zone or on school grounds unless specifically stated in penal code section 626.9

Exceptions:
>Residences, places of business, or private property not part of the school that are within the 1,000 feet area of the school.
>Individuals who possess an unloaded firearm that is locked in a secure container or locked in the trunk of a motor vehicle.


I must be missing something here, or reading a different version of p.c. 626.9
What I read, and understood, was
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.
In which case, I interpret as long guns don't have to be locked, or in a locked case? Did I miss something?

fullrearview
08-29-2008, 5:50 PM
they need to be locked in the trunk is how it was explained to me last night night. I asked specifically because of this thread.

fullrearview
08-29-2008, 6:04 PM
Did they go over AWs at all?

we went over the legal length of rifles and shotguns and their barrels but did not go into detail over all the little stupid crappy laws on AR's. We didn't even go over FFL's and how some can have BFG.50's and STANDARD CAP MAGS(in caps because i quickly corrected him as he said high cap mags:D)

The main thing that was covered was who can and can not, where and where not, prohibited weapons( switch blades, billy clubs) and all the types of carry.


one note: If you are stopped while open carrying, you must let the officer inspect your firearm. If you refuse they can automatically assume it is loaded and that is probable cause to to arrest. Its a crappy law but it is there for public safety.

fullrearview
08-29-2008, 6:06 PM
oh he did mention grandfathered weapons from law banning certain guns, and high cap mags that were granpappyed in as well.

tombinghamthegreat
08-29-2008, 6:07 PM
I must be missing something here, or reading a different version of p.c. 626.9
What I read, and understood, was

In which case, I interpret as long guns don't have to be locked, or in a locked case? Did I miss something?

When you are within 1000 feet of a k-12 school the long gun needs to be in a locked container or trunk. When outside of the school zone you can conceal, open carry a unloaded long gun in car or on foot.

M. Sage
08-29-2008, 7:27 PM
one note: If you are stopped while open carrying, you must let the officer inspect your firearm. If you refuse they can automatically assume it is loaded and that is probable cause to to arrest. Its a crappy law but it is there for public safety.

It's worse than crappy, it's more than likely unconstitutional.

Also, it's not there for public safety, it's there to harass. ;)

fullrearview
08-29-2008, 8:44 PM
It's worse than crappy, it's more than likely unconstitutional.

Also, it's not there for public safety, it's there to harass. ;)

well look at it this way, If they didn't check, or couldn't check, the gangsters would open carry and then cops couldn't do anything.


The cops don't make the laws, they just enforce them.

GuyW
08-29-2008, 9:12 PM
does "your property" (from a carrying standpoint) extend to your front yard as well?

thanks

NO.

GuyW
08-29-2008, 9:22 PM
I don't see how that would be particularly subject to debate, from the DOJ's own guide-

Quote:
Any person over the age of 18 who is not prohibited from possessing firearms, and if otherwise lawful, may keep and carry a firearm or HAVE a firearm loaded at his or her place of residence, temporary residence, campsite, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the person. (Penal Code 12026, 12031(h) and (l).)


Note that it says CARRY a(n) (implicitly) unloaded firearm, and HAVE a loaded gun....not carry a loaded gun.



and the PC exemption for the school zone-

Quote:
"(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the POSSESSION of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful."

I think possession = HAVE, not carry.


Nothing in either limits the exception to the interior of a structure on private property, it just says private property. Your living room and your front yard are legally identical in this case, the exterior wall separating them is not any legal boundary.

NO. The above is not all the law. PC 12031 forbids loaded guns in "public" places. An open front yard is a "public" place.
.

GuyW
08-29-2008, 9:26 PM
When you are within 1000 feet of a k-12 school the long gun needs to be in a locked container or trunk.

Yes - federal law, not CA law. CA law is only "concealable" guns.
POST is wrong.

When outside of the school zone you can conceal, open carry a unloaded long gun in car or on foot.

Yes.

tombinghamthegreat
08-29-2008, 10:56 PM
Yes - federal law, not CA law. CA law is only "concealable" guns.

So which one do you follow, the federal law or the state law or both? I was under the impression that both state and federal laws were applied to the school zone. :confused:

fullrearview
08-30-2008, 12:17 AM
Yes - federal law, not CA law. CA law is only "concealable" guns.
POST is wrong.



Yes.



In my work book it states firearm. not concealable firearm.

maybe POST is wrong but thats what we are being taught.

M. Sage
08-30-2008, 12:26 AM
well look at it this way, If they didn't check, or couldn't check, the gangsters would open carry and then cops couldn't do anything.


The cops don't make the laws, they just enforce them.

Yeah, I know I know.

But if they didn't check, I could open carry, too, and so could a lot of good people. Bangers are going to carry no matter what, but most of us can't under any realistic circumstances.

Selective enforcement is always an option.

So which one do you follow, the federal law or the state law or both? I was under the impression that both state and federal laws were applied to the school zone. :confused:

Both.

sac550
08-30-2008, 12:52 PM
It is not illegal to have a loaded firearm in your front yard. Your front yard is not a "public place" for 12031, it is different then a public place for 647(f) -drunk in public.

GuyW
08-30-2008, 1:14 PM
It is not illegal to have a loaded firearm in your front yard. Your front yard is not a "public place" for 12031, it is different then a public place for 647(f) -drunk in public.

Your front yard IS a public place.

People vs. Overturf concluded that the CA Penal Code allows HAVING a loaded gun in a business property that was a public place but not carrying a loaded gun, unless it's "necessary to use it" in a lawful way. Defendant found guilty. (paraphrased by me from "Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail").

The case says:

"...[1] "Carrying" and "having" are not synonymous. "Having" relates to an "act or state of possessing," Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, page 1145, while "carrying" refers to the "act or instance of carrying" and the verb "carry" in relevant definition connotes "to convey, or transport ...;" and "to transfer from one place ... to another." (Id. at p. 412.)

There is a distinct difference in the two concepts. Speaking generally in the context of statutes concerned with firearms, "carry" or "carrying" has been said to be used in the sense of holding or bearing arms. (In re Bergen (1923) 61 Cal.App. 226, 228 [214 P. 521]; People v. Smith (1946) 72 Cal.App.2d Supp. 875, 878 [164 P.2d 857]. fn. 2 We think that "having," as it appears in subdivisions (f) and (j) of section 12031, is to be read in the sense of "owning, possessing, or keeping," and we so hold for three reasons..."

"Appellant argues that subdivision (f) exempts him from liability both because the incident took place on property which constitutes his place of business within the meaning of subdivision (f) and on property which, while "public" within the definition of subdivision (a), nevertheless was his private property within subdivision (f)."

He (and you) already lost on this point....private property that anyone can freely enter is a "public" place...

Matt C
08-30-2008, 1:18 PM
Your front yard IS a public place.

People vs. Overturf concluded that the CA Penal Code allows HAVING a loaded gun in a business property that was a public place but not carrying a loaded gun, unless it's "necessary to use it" in a lawful way. Defendant found guilty. (paraphrased by me from "Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail").

The case says:

"...[1] "Carrying" and "having" are not synonymous. "Having" relates to an "act or state of possessing," Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, page 1145, while "carrying" refers to the "act or instance of carrying" and the verb "carry" in relevant definition connotes "to convey, or transport ...;" and "to transfer from one place ... to another." (Id. at p. 412.)

There is a distinct difference in the two concepts. Speaking generally in the context of statutes concerned with firearms, "carry" or "carrying" has been said to be used in the sense of holding or bearing arms. (In re Bergen (1923) 61 Cal.App. 226, 228 [214 P. 521]; People v. Smith (1946) 72 Cal.App.2d Supp. 875, 878 [164 P.2d 857]. fn. 2 We think that "having," as it appears in subdivisions (f) and (j) of section 12031, is to be read in the sense of "owning, possessing, or keeping," and we so hold for three reasons..."

"Appellant argues that subdivision (f) exempts him from liability both because the incident took place on property which constitutes his place of business within the meaning of subdivision (f) and on property which, while "public" within the definition of subdivision (a), nevertheless was his private property within subdivision (f)."

He (and you) already lost on this point....private property that anyone can freely enter is a "public" place...

A simple solution would be a small (even picket) fence. And "Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail" contains one attorney's opinion, there are in fact a few errors and questionable statements in there. Hopefully CD Michel will come out with his soon, and we can all get properly edumacated.

deleted by PC police
08-30-2008, 1:47 PM
You can use Goggle Earth. Find your house, zoom out a bit, and then search for 'schools'.

I did one for Sacramento that I got to scale in AutoCAD then drew 5 mile radius's around every school. It wasn't a pretty map.

GuyW
08-30-2008, 1:52 PM
A simple solution would be a small (even picket) fence. And "Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail" contains one attorney's opinion, there are in fact a few errors and questionable statements in there. Hopefully CD Michel will come out with his soon, and we can all get properly edumacated.

You conveniently ignore that Overturf's attorney admitted that Overturf's private property was a public area for the purposes of PC 12031, and the Judges agreed.

"....property which constitutes his place of business....and on property which, while "public"....nevertheless was his private property within subdivision (f)."

Overturf had a fence around the property in dispute.

Matt C
08-30-2008, 2:22 PM
You conveniently ignore that Overturf's attorney admitted that Overturf's private property was a public area for the purposes of PC 12031, and the Judges agreed.

"....property which constitutes his place of business....and on property which, while "public"....nevertheless was his private property within subdivision (f)."

Overturf had a fence around the property in dispute.

First off Overturf was about the common grounds of a business (an apartment), not a home with a front yard, and was therefore a public place unlike a private home's outdoor fenced in property.

Even that panel, which IMO gave a bad ruling, admitted that if there is "reasonable belief that the person or property of the defendant or another is in immediate danger and that it is necessary to carry the weapon in order to preserve the endangered person or property" that the carrying would be legal. The jury in Overturf simply did not believe that was the case (another bad decision IMO).

Hopefully we will get incorporation soon and be able to overturn BS like this. In the mean time, MY front yard, at my HOUSE, is NOT a public place.

Mikeb
08-30-2008, 3:34 PM
IF you are in a gun free zone what are you worried about. Seems like what we need is more "free zones"... How about mugging free zones? Rape free zones? Burlary free zones? Wouldn't that be cheaper than having Police?
I may have to go the the city council meeting.
Mike

Matt C
08-30-2008, 3:59 PM
IF you are in a gun free zone what are you worried about. Seems like what we need is more "free zones"... How about mugging free zones? Rape free zones? Burlary free zones? Wouldn't that be cheaper than having Police?
I may have to go the the city council meeting.
Mike

To be fair those are actions not objects, and they are already banned everywhere. A more applicable analogy might be "burglar free zones" or "rapist free zones" or "robber free zones" where persons convicted of those crimes could not go. Which actually is not a terrible idea.

Mikeb
08-30-2008, 4:41 PM
To be fair those are actions not objects, and they are already banned everywhere. A more applicable analogy might be "burglar free zones" or "rapist free zones" or "robber free zones" where persons convicted of those crimes could not go. Which actually is not a terrible idea.


I like it. If you are a mugger, your not allowed within 1000 ft of a person on the street. If your a rapeist you're not allowed within 1000 ft of a woman. If your a burgler your not allowed within 1000 ft of someones home. Sort of good old fashion bannishment. The only problem is if I take it to the Oakland City Council... they will probably adopt it. And as you point out, all that is against the law already.
Maybe allow people to protect themselves? No that will never fly...
take care
Mike