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nicki
08-27-2008, 1:07 PM
Ben Franklin said:

Those who choose to sacrifice freedom for security will have neither.:eek:

Nicki says:

Those who choose freedom over security will have both, for freedom is a blessing from God, and putting faith in God is the Ultimate in security.:D

Any thoughts guys:43:

KKBB
Nicki

Ironchef
08-27-2008, 1:12 PM
I'd like to know the REAL quote, if possible, as I've seen many variations of that quote all attributed to what Ben possibly said. I'd like to use it once I find out if it's real, and if it's the actual quote.

As for Nicki's, I don't like it. It suggests an anti-2A thought process since God will prevent crimes...if we put faith in God. And for what it's worth, I'm considerably religious and otherwise support having faith in God and realize he isn't asking you to not think, prepare, and do other things for oneself.

MudCamper
08-27-2008, 1:35 PM
I'd like to know the REAL quote, if possible

No way to know, reallly. You can see what Barttlet's Familiar Quotations publishes here: http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html

Ironchef
08-27-2008, 2:00 PM
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he even made the quote or if it was made, if it was by Ben Franklin. Reminds me of the often quoted "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant!" which wasn't really ever said by Admiral Yamamoto (or any Japanese navy leader) upon completion of their Pearl Harbor attack.

bobbarker
08-27-2008, 2:23 PM
God prevents crimes like cops do. Every now and then, but not nearly often enough for me to put my guns down.

nicki
08-27-2008, 2:28 PM
Never thought that putting faith in God could be interpretted by some as being against the 2nd amendment, that's why I asked for feedback.

I appreciate the feedback, forces me to go back to the drawing board.

The old Ben Franklin saying promotes the value that giving up freedom for security leads to neither, what I am seeking to do is put a spin on it that if we seek freedom first that we will have both freedom and security.

What I notice is we could use some new soundbites and why not build on good stuff that is already there.

I am not looking to develop stuff for the choir, rather take stuff that we already believe in, tweek it a little, and try to reach out to others who are not in the choir.

I am looking at the model of pop music.

As much as I hate the sampling done of old classics, the fact that the repackaged music sells to a new audience indicates that it is a viable business and new markets can be reached with repackaged old, but tried and proven products.

Nicki

Gryff
08-27-2008, 2:32 PM
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

According to Wikipedia, this was written by Franklin sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly. Quotation can be seen in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin on page 270. (http://books.google.com/books?id=W2MFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270t#PPA270,M1)

-hanko
08-27-2008, 3:06 PM
Never thought that putting faith in God could be interpretted by some as being against the 2nd amendment, that's why I asked for feedback.

Nicki
The Constitution restates God-given rights. Ergo, I can't figure how belief in God constitutes being against the 2nd.

-hanko

Ironchef
08-27-2008, 3:26 PM
The Constitution restates God-given rights. Ergo, I can't figure how belief in God constitutes being against the 2nd.

-hanko

I didn't say believing in God constitutes being against the 2A. If you read the OP's statement "and putting faith in God is the Ultimate in security" it appears that by putting faith in God, in the context of the Ben Franklin quote and the OPs, you'll not need faith elsewhere, like putting it in Springfield Armory, Colt, LMT, etc.

In religious circles, including myself long ago, it is not uncommon for the faithful to rely on God to deliver them from potential crime..and often that means not preparing themselves to defend themselves in the home, etc.

bohoki
08-27-2008, 4:25 PM
in the 1776 movie the ben says

They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety

the emphasis should be on "deserve"

IllTemperedCur
08-27-2008, 4:44 PM
Actually, one of my favorite Ben Franklin quotes is "neither a fortress nor a virgin will hold out for long, once they have begun to negotiate".

aplinker
08-27-2008, 4:52 PM
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

According to Wikipedia, this was written by Franklin sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly. Quotation can be seen in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin on page 270. (http://books.google.com/books?id=W2MFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270t#PPA270,M1)

1;) They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
2.) Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

* The first variant was written by Franklin, with quotation marks but almost certainly his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly. See Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin. [1]
* The second variant was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759) This book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts.[2]


also:
http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htm

movie zombie
08-27-2008, 5:34 PM
for freedom is a blessing from God, and putting faith in God is the Ultimate in security.:D

Any thoughts guys:43:

KKBB
Nicki

don't like it. putting faith in god didn't get the peasants in olde england very far....or anywhere else for that matter. the monarchy and religious heads as the representative of god here on earth and all that.......do as i say or you're opposing god's will.

no, freedom is delivered by the people to the people and for the people, it is fought for by the people and defended by the people. never depend on any other source to grant it, nurture it, and guard it.

movie zombie

jacques
08-27-2008, 8:31 PM
I like Nikis saying. However, the people who do not like flags in schools, pledge of allegance or Nativity scenes will not like it.

But that just makes me like it even more. :43:

aplinker
08-27-2008, 8:38 PM
Ben Franklin said:

Those who choose to sacrifice freedom for security will have neither.:eek:

Nicki says:

Those who choose freedom over security will have both, for freedom is a blessing from God, and putting faith in God is the Ultimate in security.:D

Any thoughts guys:43:

KKBB
Nicki

I'm with Jacques here, but just because I have faith and believe it to be true doesn't mean I'm going to insist someone else believe - that's their (God given, from my perspective) freedom to choose.

Shotgun Man
08-27-2008, 9:14 PM
Ben Franklin said:

Those who choose to sacrifice freedom for security will have neither.:eek:

Nicki says:

Those who choose freedom over security will have both, for freedom is a blessing from God, and putting faith in God is the Ultimate in security.:D

Any thoughts guys:43:

KKBB
Nicki

I think the premise of the post is a fail. I'll not rely on God for security.

God helps those who help themselves. [citation needed].

jacques
08-27-2008, 9:19 PM
I think the premise of the post is a fail. I'll not rely on God for security.

God helps those who help themselves. [citation needed].

True, but with God on your side, how could you possibly lose?

Gryff
08-27-2008, 9:42 PM
True, but with God on your side, how could you possibly lose?

But are you sure that he's on your side?

jacques
08-27-2008, 9:46 PM
Absolutely. I have a direct link. :rolleyes:

Gryff
08-27-2008, 10:06 PM
Absolutely. I have a direct link. :rolleyes:

Uh...do you hear the voice often? Any other deities talk to you on a regular basis? (::said as I slowly step away:: )

Dweeb
08-27-2008, 10:14 PM
Absolutely. I have a direct link. :rolleyes:

Jacques,

That isn't me. Seek temporal help.

-G

yellowfin
08-27-2008, 10:16 PM
Faith in God is not detached from prudence and supplementary tools. Rather the opposite, in fact. God did save Noah from the flood, but he did it by telling him to build an ark, not just wait around trying to bum a ride. Just about every miracle or act of mercy required some input on the part of those who received it.

jacques
08-27-2008, 10:30 PM
Jacques,

That isn't me. Seek temporal help.

-G

:King:

See, I told you guys. There it is again.

otteray
08-28-2008, 5:37 PM
Actually, one of my favorite Ben Franklin quotes is "neither a fortress nor a virgin will hold out for long, once they have begun to negotiate".

Thanks!
My new signiture!

-hanko
08-28-2008, 6:27 PM
I think the premise of the post is a fail. I'll not rely on God for security.

God helps those who help themselves. [citation needed].
I'll rely on God for what happens when I'm dead;); whether that's part of your personal belief is up to you...you can call your higher power whatever you'd like. For agnostics/atheists, life does run a touch more smoothly if you accept basic tenents of the world's major religions (at least most of them).:D

Google seems to show Franklin was responsible for the "...helps himself" quote. I rely on myself for security (+ a couple of Belgian Shepherds).

-hanko

MrTuffPaws
08-29-2008, 6:20 AM
Nicki says:

Those who choose freedom over security will have both, for freedom is a blessing from God, and putting faith in God is the Ultimate in security.:D
Nicki

But to follow god, one must have faith and follow the laws of god, which are far more restrictive than the laws of man (IMO), thus, no freedom is obtained by having faith in god.

It is arguable that security can be obtained by having faith in god (i.e. the after life), but be careful. Fear of eternal punishment is not faith. So, having true faith in god might give you security at the cost of freedom, but one wouldn't have faith to obtain that security because that would be false faith.

MrTuffPaws
08-29-2008, 6:22 AM
Faith in God is not detached from prudence and supplementary tools. Rather the opposite, in fact. God did save Noah from the flood, but he did it by telling him to build an ark, not just wait around trying to bum a ride. Just about every miracle or act of mercy required some input on the part of those who received it.

True, but they all followed the will of god, which is far from "god helps those that help themselves".

MrTuffPaws
08-29-2008, 6:25 AM
True, but with God on your side, how could you possibly lose?

In every modern war that I can think of, save maybe for Korea, every side involved claimed to have god on their side. In the end bombs >> than god.

-hanko
08-29-2008, 2:57 PM
In every modern war that I can think of, save maybe for Korea, every side involved claimed to have god on their side. In the end bombs >> than god.
But the common saying seems to involve something about no atheists in a foxhole.

-hanko