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View Full Version : Another hi-cap question: hypothetical, of course


webster223
08-27-2008, 12:24 PM
Let's say a hypothetical person walks into a large sporting goods establishment in CA and purchases a pistol magazine in a blister pack. After traveling home, some distance away, the purchaser notices the magazine is not the 10-round magazine he thought he was getting, but rather a full-capacity 15-round magazine. Upon examination of his credit card receipt, he notices that the line item on the receipt reads, "Brand X 15-round magazine." He was unaware of the actual capacity of the magazine before purchasing it. Given that he hasn't seen >10 round magazines for sale in CA since 1999, he naturally assumed he was getting a 10-rounder.

1. Has this hypothetical person committed any crime?

2. Based on this hypothetical mag purchase, is this person at any realistic risk of being served with a search warrant or being prosecuted for a crime?

3. What should this hypothetical person do next?

Bobula
08-27-2008, 12:26 PM
In for answer
Or what if reciept says "general merch", not specifying mag cap in the item description

bwiese
08-27-2008, 12:41 PM
Hicap mag acquisition by/via nonexempt parties is illegal.

The store could be in big trouble esp if it didn't have a hicap mag permit (and could be in separate bit of trouble if it did.)

Such a case would probably not cause much grief to the purchaser especially if the mag/package was not marked as hicap or 15 rd (i.e, mispackaged).

The correct answer is to return the mag to the place of purchase and get the proper one. We don't give advice contrary to law here.

Hicap mag cases are very defendable if there is no track record. I dunno of any cases where DAs/DOJ track down hicap purchasers except for importation from outta-state gunshows (i.e, Big Reno Show).

BONECUTTER
08-27-2008, 12:50 PM
1. Has this hypothetical person committed any crime?

Selling, lending/giving, importing, and manufaturing are. In this case the store broke the law.

2. Based on this hypothetical mag purchase, is this person at any realistic risk of being served with a search warrant or being prosecuted for a crime?

Doubtful. I think the store doing an audit and not being able to prove they sold to a LEO and calling you is more likly. A judge sighing a warrant for a few high caps I don't see happening. Unless person pretended to be a LEO and passed a fake ID.

3. What should this hypothetical person do next?

I say return it. If you like the shop return it.

Example....if my boss found out I accidently sold hi-caps to someone....it could get me fired. That stuff puts the shops license in jeopardy.

My 2 cents.

packnrat
08-27-2008, 12:58 PM
well i do not clutter my life with cc's so no tracking me.:43:

but to stay legal, it must be returned.:(


and yes the doj does check people at the reno gun shows. there was a state car videoing all returning on a back county rd this past sunday.
.

webster223
08-27-2008, 3:33 PM
Thanks, everyone, for your input. If this hypothetical had been an actual situation, it would now be resolved to the satisfaction of purchaser and retailer.

-hanko
08-27-2008, 4:01 PM
Thanks, everyone, for your input. If this hypothetical had been an actual situation, it would now be resolved to the satisfaction of purchaser and retailer.
So who sold you the magazine;)

-hanko

rmeyer
08-27-2008, 4:06 PM
"and yes the doj does check people at the reno gun shows. there was a state car videoing all returning on a back county rd this past sunday."

huh?

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-27-2008, 4:08 PM
Hicap mag acquisition by/via nonexempt parties is illegal.

Bill, I'm curious as to how the receiving party is doing anything illegal seeing as how there is nothing in the law that says buying is illegal?

Does receiving the mag make you an accessory to a crime?

ETA:

i just tell them doj watches the reno show and have heard of arrests of people buying things they shouldn't.its illegal.

These people (if there really are any) are most likey being charged with importing. You can buy a "hi-cap" mag out of state. Its just illegal to bring it back.

Rob454
08-27-2008, 7:17 PM
I had a bunch of hi cap mags. I got them back in 1997. Since my AK wasnt registered by the deadline ( had no real idea of gun laws back then) i ended up giving all the stuff to my bro in law. I jsut didnt want to deal with the whole mess cause back then nobody knew their azz from peanutbutter. as far as laws were concerned. Everyone was walking on eggs.
As for the people who "got it before the ban" wink wink thats their choice to break the law. personally i feel if you need more than 10 rounds youre past a self defense stage youre now into a war zone. i have no problem with someone who wants hicap mags. I could really care less.

socalgunrunner
08-27-2008, 7:25 PM
Bill, I'm curious as to how the receiving party is doing anything illegal seeing as how there is nothing in the law that says buying is illegal?

Does receiving the mag make you an accessory to a crime?

+1

I was just thinking the same exact thing.

MudCamper
08-27-2008, 9:11 PM
Bill, I'm curious as to how the receiving party is doing anything illegal seeing as how there is nothing in the law that says buying is illegal?

This was covered, ad nauseam, last week in these forums. Just do a search of posts by me with the word "conspiracy".

Here ya go. I did the search for you: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1454449&postcount=49

sac550
08-27-2008, 9:14 PM
Receiving party did nothing wrong and can't be charged with anything! There is no PC 12020 or PC 32 violation. Keep them if you want or take them back it is your choice.

sac550
08-27-2008, 9:16 PM
182 PC doesn't apply because the person in this post didn't conspire to commit a crime.

kpw001
08-27-2008, 10:57 PM
I had something similar actually happen. When I bought my first gun last year it came with 2 15 round mags from S&W. I didn't realize it until I went home and took a closer look at the mags. I debated on keeping them or not but I ended up taking them back to the shop and got 10 rounds. The guys at the shop were really glad I brought them back, seeing as how it's illegal for them to be "selling" them.

M. Sage
08-27-2008, 11:21 PM
well i do not clutter my life with cc's so no tracking me.:43:

Lol, because the DROS sheet, DL photocopy, thumb print and proof of residence wouldn't let them find you. :rolleyes: :p

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-28-2008, 7:56 AM
Lol, because the DROS sheet, DL photocopy, thumb print and proof of residence wouldn't let them find you. :rolleyes: :p

Unless they snuck some new law past us in California there is no DROS, identification, or thumb print required to purchase mags only. :p

KDOFisch
08-28-2008, 8:10 AM
It's not too far off base-

When I bought an XD40 over a year ago, it came with two mags, as advertised. One of them was always acting kind of funny (feeding-wise) and I didn't know why. I finally flipped it over one day to find that this was a 9mm ten-rounder that I was cramming .40SW into.

I know this is a little off-topic, but packaging problems do occur. Those Croats are a world away from CA and don't always get it right.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-28-2008, 8:36 AM
This was covered, ad nauseam, last week in these forums. Just do a search of posts by me with the word "conspiracy".

Here ya go. I did the search for you: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1454449&postcount=49

I still don't know about the conspiracy idea there. I believe both parties have to be commiting a crime for it to be considered a comspiracy. This isn't like receiving stolen goods. Receiving stolen goods that you know are stolen is specifically a crime. Buying a hi-cap mag that is legal to possess is still not a crime.

Unfortunately every one of these hi-cap mag threads ends up with the ultra conservative camp and the liberal camp arguing with eachother. What it really comes down to is law enforcement has to catch you in the act of importing, manufacturing, offering for sale, giving, or lending (without supervision) in order to charge anyone with a crime.

I understand the ultra conservative view on hi-cap magazines. NO ONE wants to the the test case for high cap mags. Could an uninformed officer haul you in for possession of a hi-cap mag? Sure. Could it be fought in court and won? Hell Yes.

I just find it funny how hi-cap scared some people on this board are despite the fact that no one has ever been charged with any crime involving a hi-cap mags. Most of those same people have no problem owning an OLR that's been proven to land a few people in jail and/or had their OLR confiscated.

MotoGuy
08-28-2008, 10:40 AM
I dunno of any cases where DAs/DOJ track down hicap purchasers except for importation from outta-state gunshows (i.e, Big Reno Show).

Bill,

Can you share any details about this? Just curious how they tracked a purchase from an out of state gunshow.

Fate
08-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Bill,

Can you share any details about this? Just curious how they tracked a purchase from an out of state gunshow.

I can only think they were observed buying them at a NV gunshow, followed to their vehicle and kept under observation all the way to the state line.

However, I think if suspect is not under constant observation the entire way, then the ability of any prosecution to get a conviction is questionable, let alone even the probable cause for the traffic stop.

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
08-28-2008, 12:29 PM
No crime here, sales of large cap mags by FFLs are ok (assuming the sporting goods dealer had an FFL).

MotoGuy
08-28-2008, 2:02 PM
I can only think they were observed buying them at a NV gunshow, followed to their vehicle and kept under observation all the way to the state line.

However, I think if suspect is not under constant observation the entire way, then the ability of any prosecution to get a conviction is questionable, let alone even the probable cause for the traffic stop.

But that would take a lot of personnel to watch the hundreds of gun show attendees, keep an eye on them for the hours they are at the show, and then follow each one to their cars to see if they had CA plates. And what about the many who spend the night at the hotel. And if they break them down into parts before the border, then there is no crime.

MudCamper
08-28-2008, 11:07 PM
I still don't know about the conspiracy idea there. I believe both parties have to be commiting a crime for it to be considered a comspiracy.

Not true. You do not need to violate any other law to commit conspiracy. You need only know that the other party (in this case the seller) is breaking the law to commit conspiracy. The seller would be guilty of 12020 and 182. The buyer would be guilty of 182, conspiracy.

CHS
08-28-2008, 11:53 PM
Not true. You do not need to violate any other law to commit conspiracy. You need only know that the other party (in this case the seller) is breaking the law to commit conspiracy. The seller would be guilty of 12020 and 182. The buyer would be guilty of 182, conspiracy.

Good point.

The seller in this particular case is not violating the law intentionally, but *IS* violating the law.

The buyer KNOWS that the sale/transfer/lend/blahblahblah of standard capacity magazines is illegal, so is guilty of the crime of conspiracy.

Once you get the mags home and find out they are not reduced-capacity 10'ers and make the decision NOT to return them to correct the honest mistake, you become guilty of conspiracy. ESPECIALLY if you drive back to try to buy more mis-labeled standard cap mags.