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Cesardajr
08-26-2008, 11:53 AM
I have a question regarding when was this rule created / enacted?
i notice when the doj makes or changes a new rule/law. they never stated a ammended or effective date next to it.
does any one know when this was created?

the reason i asked is that under federal law your allowed to remark the model only of a weapon with out any problems.
you will see this on hk94 remarked to mp5, hk91 remarked to g3.
i see that you can the ask the doj for permision to do this but i dont remember this rule/law 10 years ago.

here is the rule/law

ARTICLE 5. OBLITERATION OF IDENTIFICATION MARKS
12090. Any person who changes, alters, removes or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice on any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm, without first having secured written permission from the department to make such change, alteration or removal shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison.

Anthonysmanifesto
08-26-2008, 12:49 PM
I have a question regarding when was this rule created / enacted?
i notice when the doj makes or changes a new rule/law. they never stated a ammended or effective date next to it.
does any one know when this was created?

the reason i asked is that under federal law your allowed to remark the model only of a weapon with out any problems.
you will see this on hk94 remarked to mp5, hk91 remarked to g3.
i see that you can the ask the doj for permision to do this but i dont remember this rule/law 10 years ago.

here is the rule/law

ARTICLE 5. OBLITERATION OF IDENTIFICATION MARKS
12090. Any person who changes, alters, removes or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice on any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm, without first having secured written permission from the department to make such change, alteration or removal shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison.

The last measure that effected PC 12090 was in 1976

the next closest thing is the following sections:

12091: was affected in 1953

12092. Last Affected Bill - (AB 0078) 1997

12093 was changed in 1977

12094. Last Affected Bill - (SB 0205) 2001

sorry dont have immediate access to rule changes- just statute

firecaptdave
08-26-2008, 1:05 PM
Not sure what you're asking...I believe the intent of the law is that you not mess w/ the serial numbers...

bohoki
08-26-2008, 1:39 PM
Not sure what you're asking...I believe the intent of the law is that you not mess w/ the serial numbers...

and the make and model otherwise people would just rename the listed assault weapon to an unlisted one

Librarian
08-26-2008, 2:48 PM
A quick search through the California Code of Regulations yields no hits in 11 CCR on PC 12090 or 'pistol identification'.

12090 is an echo of Federal law, of course: 18 USC 922(k) (k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. and 27 CFR 478 TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.

No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate
or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or
manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or
possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or
manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has,
at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign
commerce.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]

DesertGunner
08-27-2008, 1:02 PM
I guess that would preclude using the DOJs most stringent definition of "manufacture" to re-"manufacture" an unlisted receiver from a listed AW?

:)

GuyW
08-27-2008, 2:13 PM
I have a question regarding when was this rule created / enacted?
i notice when the doj makes or changes a new rule/law....

Penal Code 12090 is a state LAW enacted by the CA legislature.

CA DOJ (much to their chagrin) can't make LAW.

CA DOJ can pass REGULATIONS if they are authorized by law to do so.

Now, what is the question?

Meplat
08-28-2008, 10:54 AM
So, for these purposes is the "receiver" the firearm? Some older models have markings on the barrel. If it is rebarreled a makers mark is removed. Also, if one had..... say.....a sten parts kit with a nice fat torch cut parting the receiver. The receiver has been "distroyed" and therefor is no longer a firearm, right?

:confused::mad:

Riptide
08-29-2008, 8:57 AM
Here's a related question that I am not sure was clearly answered above:

Some folks are converting their HK USC's to HK UMP clones and HK SL8's to HK G36 clones. Would it be legal in California to remark or change the MODEL from "USC" to "UMP" or "SL8" to "G36"?

I know there are no Federal restrictions, how about in California?

Thanks!

Cesardajr
01-26-2009, 4:43 PM
My question is the same as riptide's
since federal law lets you change model number/markings with no problem. can you do it in california???
i read section 12090 and it seems that you can not change the model number in california without permission first. is this right?
has anybody ask for permision to remark the model number on there weapon?
what happen was it approved or denied???

AJAX22
01-26-2009, 4:50 PM
My understanding on this was that an 07FFL was able to enter a firearm onto their books, list it as destroyed and alter anything they wanted (most commonly the make/model) re-engrave it and call it whatever they wanted from that point on.

Which is why there are so many MP5's in the NFA registry... most are NOT MP5's but rather HK94's that have had the identifying marks changed to read MP5....

At some point the ATF started frowning on that however (IIRC) and dissalowed the practice.....

At this point I believe you actually do have to destroy the receiver by an approved meathod and then re-weld it in order to perform that sort of alteration.