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Glock22Fan
08-25-2008, 7:08 AM
Has anyone been denied a CCW by Riverside Police Department within the last two years because of their inability to pass the firearms proficiency test?

Has anyone actually taken the Riverside PD proficienty test?

If so, please let me know.

(Note, only RPD please)

Thanks.

For those interested, this is a synopsis of the Firearm Proficiency Test:

First Stage is five rounds each at two separate targets at 9 feet in in 15 seconds. First five rounds using strong hand and the second using the weak hand. Yes, you have to switch hands and acquire a sight picture on a second target during the 15 seconds. We start from the ready position with weapon down near our thigh. Second stage is 10 rounds at one target at 21 feet in 20 seconds from the holster with two hands. Third round is 10 rounds at 30 feet slow fire both hands. At the actual test all rounds must be no further out than the 8 ring. They use a small silhouette target.

bwiese
08-25-2008, 9:49 AM
Sounds like this discriminates against the disabled/mobility-impaired, exactly the sort of folk that could use CCW.

nhanson
08-25-2008, 10:00 AM
First Stage is five rounds each at two separate targets at 9 feet in in 15 seconds. First five rounds using strong hand and the second using the weak hand. Yes, you have to switch hands and acquire a sight picture on a second target during the 15 seconds.

Does not sound bad at all!

Combat master drill is multiple targets (3 targets) at 5 meters (~16 feet). Pistol is loaded with 3 rounds, start in holster, present with two hand grip and one round in each target to slide lock, execute a speed reload, switch to support hand only and shoot another single round per target. You have a whopping Six (6) seconds to accomplish the entire sequence!

This is a very do-able drill and have shot it many times. Great practice, give it a try.

Enjoy

Pvt. Cowboy
08-25-2008, 10:01 AM
If they don't list the types of handguns permitted to be carried on their CCW, I do believe that I'd show up with a Bernardelli .22 Olympic target match pistol.

By the way, that's Riverside Police Department's shooting qualification? Judging by their past exchanges of gunfire in the line of duty, I thought that RPD just blapped off every round from their mags randomly at shadows and perceived movement with their eyes closed.

Glock22Fan
08-25-2008, 10:02 AM
Sounds like this discriminates against the disabled/mobility-impaired, exactly the sort of folk that could use CCW.

I haven't tried it myself, but I know someone (able-bodied) who seriously had some practice at this this weekend.

A reasonable shooter, if not an "avid" shooter, this person managed to just pass 50% of the attempts.

The issue here is whether this test is realistic, whether or not everyone is rated at the same level, and whether waivers are given to the favored few.

And note, it effectively requires a ten round semi-auto as very few people could do reloads and shoot in that time frame. So, to heck with revolver owners and 1911 enthusiasts.

Combat master drill is multiple targets (3 targets) at 5 meters (~16 feet). Pistol is loaded with 3 rounds, start with two hand grip and one round in each target to slide lock, execute a speed reload, switch to support hand only and shoot another single round per target. You have a whopping Six (6) seconds to accomplish the entire sequence!

This is a very do-able drill and have shot it many times. Great practice, give it a try.

I'm sure that this is fine for enthusiasts, but CCW's are also supposed to be for self-protection, including by the weak and elderly and battered moms. Are you saying that they should also be Combat Masters?

bwiese
08-25-2008, 10:05 AM
Thanks, John.

This doesn't sound like a legit SD test, it sounds like a basic sport shooting test.

eaglemike
08-25-2008, 10:13 AM
Does not sound bad at all!

Combat master drill is multiple targets (3 targets) at 5 meters (~16 feet). Pistol is loaded with 3 rounds, start in holster, present with two hand grip and one round in each target to slide lock, execute a speed reload, switch to support hand only and shoot another single round per target. You have a whopping Six (6) seconds to accomplish the entire sequence!

This is a very do-able drill and have shot it many times. Great practice, give it a try.

Enjoy
For a competitor that practices, this is a piece of cake. For the average joe, it's going to be a challenge - especially with a wheelgun (as noted above). JMHO......

IIRC aren't the huge majority of shootings 3 rounds or less? At least they got the range pretty close to reality.

I have seen some P.O. shoot in the past that might be challenged by this.

Shooting the far/near standards at the IRC is much more challenging, but again, the average joe, especially if physically challenged.....:(

all the best,

Mike

nhanson
08-25-2008, 10:16 AM
Thanks, John.

This doesn't sound like a legit SD test, it sounds like a basic sport shooting test.

Consider the average gun fight is at 9 to 10 feet and lasts 2.2 seconds. This sounds like a cake walk for shooting skills however, very dangerous in a real life.

At these distances you need to be able to present out and fire two aimed shots in 1.5 to 1.8 seconds for real world use or life gets dicey!

Not sure where Riverside PD is coming from with this evaluation other that safe gun handling skills. If your serious about self defense, you need to make a commitment to learn how to rapidly use you handgun so, you will have time to engage your brain before you actually present and fire. This PROTECTS your in the aftermath while giving you the ability to survive!

Learn and this evaluation is a piece of cake.

Enjoy

nhanson
08-25-2008, 10:24 AM
For a competitor that practices, this is a piece of cake. For the average joe, it's going to be a challenge - especially with a wheelgun (as noted above). JMHO......

IIRC aren't the huge majority of shootings 3 rounds or less? At least they got the range pretty close to reality.

I have seen some P.O. shoot in the past that might be challenged by this.



Yes/Yes/Yes

I've shot with County mounties that can't hit the target at 3 meters! Others, do this in their sleep.

The point being, If your serious about strapping on a handgun, you owe it to yourself and the public your in to train up. I've seen new-bees accomplish this with 2 to 2 1/2 days of training. It is not difficult, just requires a commitment.

Enjoy

Glock22Fan
08-25-2008, 10:44 AM
The important thing isn't whether Granny can shoot an apple at 30 feet with ten rounds in ten seconds.

The important thing is that no matter how slowly Granny shoots, is she unduly dangerous to bystanders?

Improving her skills beyond that is advisable, as she will then stand a better chance of surviving, but some people here want to deny her the opportunity to defend herself at all because she isn't a competition class shooter.

Remember, Granny's opponent isn't necessarily a competition shooter either.

Knauga
08-25-2008, 11:16 AM
The more restrictions an agency throws towards CCW, the less they really want to issue a CCW. A person does not need to shoot like "Dirty Harry" in order to be safe and proficient with a firearm.

San Bernardino County's "qualification" was 10 rounds in any combination as long as there was a reload involved and it was unscored. What they watched for was muzzle and trigger discipline. Did you keep the gun pointed in a safe direction? Did you put your finger inside the trigger guard before you were ready to shoot? Can you safely reload the firearm? Did you follow instructions? Did you shoot an instructor? (Apparently the only way to fail their qualification). In my class there was an elderly gentleman with a walker (just had hip replacement surgery). It was great watching him shoot and reload his Beretta 96 while still using the walker ;)

Their class was heavy on the law, light on the shooting really as it should be. It is really up to you to get additional training, not nanny Sheriff wanting to see your wicked mall ninja skillz.

There was somebody on the old Californiaccw.org site who failed the Riverside PD test. It was the only reason they gave for denying his CCW. I'm not sure if he went to the SD or not.

RomanDad
08-25-2008, 11:24 AM
The test sounds like complete BULL****....

Thirty feet for the last round??? Given the laws of California, I cant imagine a scenario where a CCW has thirty feet of distance between him and the bad guy and is justified to shoot.... CCW uses of force are up close and personal....


So does their policy eliminate Amputees? Or do they make an accommodation???

Sounds like this was designed for POLICE OFFICERS and is being applied to CCWs.... Youd think the people responsible for this stuff could understand that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a CCW and a cop.... One, we dont have to arrest people.

I prefer more realistic CCW scenarios: Like hit the silhouette from reasonable distances.

berto
08-25-2008, 12:21 PM
I'm all for training and competency but this test seems designed to fail many applicants. I too am curious if the Riverside PD requires its officers to pass a similar test. I doubt most CCW holders will ever encounter a situation where they fire at 30 feet. I'd be interested in the rationale behind these requirements as opposed to a more sensible test.

383green
08-25-2008, 12:45 PM
Thirty feet for the last round??? Given the laws of California, I cant imagine a scenario where a CCW has thirty feet of distance between him and the bad guy and is justified to shoot.... CCW uses of force are up close and personal....

And for that matter, when would it be reasonable for a CCW holder to pump ten rounds into a single stationary target in short order? It would be a prosecutor's messy dream to get to prosecute somebody who dumped two mags of .45ACP into somebody's chest, regardless of their justification in doing so.

Even it it was reasonable to expect the CCW applicant to need to dump two mags into a single target (say, when being attacked by a stoned zombie), that target sure wouldn't be holding still the whole time. They ought to have the silhouette dropping to the floor and making a big ol' mess during the firing sequence. :rolleyes:

All that being said, their test sounds like a reasonable drill for getting my skills up. I ought to practice that drill until I can do it upside down, hanging by my fellas, and without spilling my beer. ;)

REDHORSE
08-25-2008, 1:34 PM
I created pic, for a more visual reference to the Riv City CCW course of fire. Just not sure if all rounds from the three courses were required to be within the 8-ring or if that was for the slow fire course.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6491/rivccwbgd3.png

RomanDad
08-25-2008, 1:37 PM
Even it it was reasonable to expect the CCW applicant to need to dump two mags into a single target (say, when being attacked by a stoned zombie), that target sure wouldn't be holding still the whole time. They ought to have the silhouette dropping to the floor and making a big ol' mess during the firing sequence. :rolleyes:



:smilielol5:

Have a cadet throw a bucket of blood at you while all thats going on and youre almost there.

Glock22Fan
08-25-2008, 1:37 PM
I created pic, for a more visual reference to the Riv Cnty CCW

To be accurate, it is Riverside City PD, not Riverside Cnty.

But I do like the picture. Nice and clear.

nicki
08-25-2008, 1:39 PM
These aren't cake walk standards, but they are not impossible standards either.

We should of course want training standards that apply to the real world.

Still, if I wanted a CCW, I could make sure that I would pass that test.

Carrying a gun is a significant responsiblity and if you are going to carry, I believe you have a duty to be and to stay proficient in its use.

Ye, we all have rights, but with rights come responsiblities.

Nicki

383green
08-25-2008, 1:48 PM
After seeing the drawing, the numbers suddenly clicked into place for me, and the test doesn't sound quite as hard as I thought at first. 21 feet is just that first white line; not too hard. 30 feet is a bit harder, but it's not like running the target back to the backstop. And 9 feet? I'd still need to do some practice with my dumber hand, but that's almost close enough to tape a stick to the barrel and aim by pressing the stick against the target's chest. :90:

Have a cadet throw a bucket of blood at you while all thats going on and youre almost there.

Yeah, that would be about right! :18: :rofl2:

eaglemike
08-25-2008, 2:49 PM
With training, this course of fire truly is a cakewalk.

I wonder why they decided to throw in the strong hand/weak hand stuff.. I've never heard of that being used in a qualification course - not that I know them all. I have seen a few, and run a few qual's..

all the best,

Mike

yellowfin
08-25-2008, 3:04 PM
How many people have taken this test in this capacity, that is, how many applicants?

5968
08-25-2008, 3:54 PM
I'm all for training and competency but this test seems designed to fail many applicants. I too am curious if the Riverside PD requires its officers to pass a similar test. I doubt most CCW holders will ever encounter a situation where they fire at 30 feet. I'd be interested in the rationale behind these requirements as opposed to a more sensible test.

The qualifications for officers is to a higher standard than to obtain the mentioned CCW. Personally I think it is your God given right to carry in this country and you should not need a CCW, but it is nice to know that if you are issued one you can shoot half way decent. That qualification is not hard. If you are going to carry a gun I would hope you practice with it, and if you practice, the qualification should be a breeze.

yellowfin
08-25-2008, 4:41 PM
^ And how many ranges are in that area, how much does ammo cost, and are there many shops to where one can reasonably easily find a pistol for themselves? And is the public readily aware that they can apply for CCW, that such is even possible in this state?

M. Sage
08-25-2008, 5:52 PM
I prefer more realistic CCW scenarios: Like hit the silhouette from reasonable distances.

+1. It might actually make sense if it was one at contact range shot from retention, one at ten feet aimed...

adamsreeftank
08-25-2008, 6:06 PM
Requiring an unskilled shooter to switch hands with a loaded gun under pressure sounds like an unsafe range practice.