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mikehaas
08-22-2008, 4:01 PM
As creator of "AmmoGuide Interactive", I thought I'd contribute what I hope is a useful enhancement to the CalGuns Foundation AW ID Flowchart - an interactive version.

I've created the basic core on the NRA Members' Councils website which only goes a couple questions deep...
http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

It's a cgi that should be easy to install on calguns when done.

Should I finish it? Do ya want it?

-- Since posting this thread, the Calguns Interactive AW ID Flowchart (available at the above link) has been completed. It took about 8 hours. :cool2:

http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/flowchartbanner468x60.gif (http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi)

In fact, it is linked from the NRA Members' Councils of California home (http://calnra.com/) and the Legislative Info and Contact Tools (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml) pages. Also added into the banner rotation at AmmoGuide.com (http://AmmoGuide.com).

Matt C
08-22-2008, 4:21 PM
Cool, but you have a broken/missing image- http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a3n.gif

jeffyboy
08-22-2008, 4:37 PM
Same here:
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a4n.gif
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a5n.gif
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a6n.gif
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a7n.gif
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a8n.gif
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a9n.gif
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a10n.gif


Looks like an finite loop when no is clicked


referring URL: http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi?No=No&qq=18

jeffyboy
08-22-2008, 4:41 PM
needs a little QA work...but it's a good idea...PM me if you need some help

Ironchef
08-22-2008, 5:10 PM
He said it only goes a few questions deep.

Looks awesome! It appears this will only really help people building/buying or studying a weapon's legality. Nice work!

packnrat
08-22-2008, 5:45 PM
maybe a techie would like it...but i like the simple one that prints out on both side of one page.
and can be read off line when printed up...were it proves it's worth.


just my $0.02 worth.

:TFH:

.

sorensen440
08-22-2008, 5:49 PM
Great idea maybe we can get the doj to put it on there site eh?? :p

Shotgun Man
08-22-2008, 5:51 PM
When you ask the question, "Does the rifle have a detachable magazine?", you need to define detachable magazine and say how a bullet button-fixed mag is not detachable.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
08-22-2008, 5:52 PM
I like it, it looks great!

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 5:53 PM
All broken images were seen because the tool wasn't finished, but thanks for trying it! I've added the rest of the logic. Because the interactive flowchart is complete, you shouldn't see any more broken images.

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

Calguns leadership, if you want to install this at calguns (once you verify it correct), just let me know. Should be easy.

ke6guj
08-22-2008, 5:59 PM
If you answer "Is the rifle listed in Appendix B or C" as yes, the response states that you violated short barreled rifle regs.

Looks like you missed the "barrel under 16"" question somewhere.





Green "mag lock" info should be on the "detachable magazine" question page.

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 6:11 PM
When you ask the question, "Does the rifle have a detachable magazine?", you need to define detachable magazine and say how a bullet button-fixed mag is not detachable.
Done. Thanks.

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 6:14 PM
If you answer "Is the rifle listed in Appendix B or C" as yes, the response states that you violated short barreled rifle regs.

Looks like you missed the "barrel under 16"" question somewhere.
Please check again, follow the PDF file - flow should be identical.

FIXED. Man, the logic gets to your head sometime with this stuff :-)

Green "mag lock" info should be on the "detachable magazine" question page.
I added some info to that question after some else suggested it. Please check. If something's missing that should be included from the pdf, I'll add it.

bigmike82
08-22-2008, 6:15 PM
You may also want to put a disclaimer on there...the usual legalese stuff about it not being legal advice and that an attorney should be consulted for any legal opinions. Just to CYA.

ke6guj
08-22-2008, 6:38 PM
Please check again, follow the PDF file - flow should be identical.

FIXED. Man, the logic gets to your head sometime with this stuff :-)
still not complete. In the PDF, a NO answer to "listed in appendix B or C" loops back to "barell less than 16 inches", the interactive jumps directly to "appendix A".

Looking back, the 16" question may have been better situated above or below the "appendix A" or Appendix B+C" questions, not in the middle of them.

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 8:08 PM
Yeah, I have a logic error, will work in it tonight and post an update when fixed.

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 9:51 PM
Yeah, I have a logic error, will work in it tonight and post an update when fixed.
Fixed. That was a good one. But still, check me out.

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

ke6guj
08-22-2008, 10:14 PM
looks good now.

packnrat
08-22-2008, 10:15 PM
When you ask the question, "Does the rifle have a detachable magazine?", you need to define detachable magazine and say how a bullet button-fixed mag is not detachable.

does a bb not make it a removable mag?

as oposed to detachable??

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 10:53 PM
Quote:


When you ask the question, "Does the rifle have a detachable magazine?", you need to define detachable magazine and say how a bullet button-fixed mag is not detachable.
does a bb not make it a removable mag?

as oposed to detachable??
I defer to the legal minds of calguns and those who created this excellent flowchart (I only transposed their great work to software) but the word "removable" doesn't seem to appear in the California PC...
http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=pen&codebody=removable&hits=20

On the other hand, it knows about 'detachable'...
http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=pen&codebody=detachable&hits=20

Search page:
http://leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 11:35 PM
Great idea maybe we can get the doj to put it on there site eh?? :p
Maybe the original pdf, but think about it... you're visiting the CADOJ website... are YOU gonna describe your gun to a page, one that can end up telling you something like...
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a2yy.gif

Hey, were those cars pulling into your driveway...??? :eek:

Somehow, I think most folks would prefer it hosted at calguns. ;)

hoffmang
08-23-2008, 1:42 PM
The right term is non-detachable magazine which I think may already be in use.

Mike: This looks so cool. We need to get the FFL's to use this at gun shows. They've been using the chart but this is even easier.

-Gene

Wildhawk66
08-23-2008, 6:31 PM
My perfectly legal SU16 just failed the test!!!

Registered Assualt Weapon...No
AR or AK...No
Barrel less than 16"...No
In appendix A?... No
Chambered In .50 BMG?...No
Overall less than 30"...No
Detachable Mag...Yes
Does the rifle have any of these...folding stock... Yes

The test language is accurate to the PC code. "12276.1(C) A folding or telescoping stock." Not sure how to fix this, but it could be misleading for LE.

hoffmang
08-23-2008, 6:41 PM
My perfectly legal SU16 just failed the test!!!
...
Does the rifle have any of these...folding stock... Yes



The real issue is that you don't have a folding stock, you have a folding rifle that is then inoperable. However, its a good point.

-Gene

ldivinag
08-24-2008, 12:18 AM
mike,

the issue i see is that the blue boxes must be above the answer buttons.

maybe the finished product will be CSS'ed and the layout of the question and answers will be aligned and the helpful boxes to the side...

mikehaas
08-24-2008, 1:01 AM
mike,

the issue i see is that the blue boxes must be above the answer buttons.

maybe the finished product will be CSS'ed and the layout of the question and answers will be aligned and the helpful boxes to the side...
Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions. In this case, the layout of the screens are optimized to share as much horizontal real estate as possible in an attempt to require as little vertical scrolling on the visitor's part as necessary.

And the simple html code puts the buttons in the center. Simple, looks nice. I could have gotten much more complex with trying to position them right under the blue box (which moves because of the above-stated concern), but I don't find the way it is to be a navigation handicap, good compromise for the simplicity in programming. I learned long ago that simple is better - I wish Microsoft hadn't forgotten that. ("Nobody will ever need more than 640K.")

As long as each screen asks only one question, and the blue boxes consistently identify that question, and the blue question boxes appear very close (immediately above) the buttons, it's an acceptable GUI. It's a matter of esthetics whether the blue question boxes be aligned vertically with the buttons.

mikehaas
08-24-2008, 1:16 AM
Mike: This looks so cool. We need to get the FFL's to use this at gun shows. They've been using the chart but this is even easier.

-Gene
Thanks, Gene. Really glad you like it.

There are different situations, for some the printed version with be the best to use, for others the interactive version will have advantages. Seems to me the important thing is to have both available - gets to the widest audience -and that they are correct. Enjoy.

And I have to point out again, the REAL work was done by those calgunners that came up with the PDF flowchart. I've been a software engineer for over 25 years - it's nothing for me to see a flowchart and make it into a program. In fact, sometimes I have to sit on my hands to stop myself. ;)

mikehaas
08-24-2008, 1:27 AM
The real issue is that you don't have a folding stock, you have a folding rifle that is then inoperable. However, its a good point.

-Gene
Yep - If the gun is indeed "a folding rifle that is then inoperable", then is seems you should answer NO to the question that asks...

"Is the rifle's overall length less than 30 inches? If less than 30 inches, can the rifle be fired in the shortest configuration?"

It's the Yes answer that gets you busted.

mikehaas
08-24-2008, 1:52 AM
For those that are interested, I started programming the interactive flowchart (from scratch - starting with the pdf file) shortly after I made this post (in another thread):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1460066&postcount=19
(8/22. 1:50 PM)

Program was done - bugs fixed, a "thumbs up" from calguns QA dept (ke6guj) shortly after I posted this:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1461277&postcount=17
(8/22. 9:51 PM)

Nothing but a few minor graphic enhancements since.

So 8 hours, start to finish. And in that time, still had dinner with the wife. And, it kept me off the streets. :eek:

Wildhawk66
08-24-2008, 9:56 AM
Yep - If the gun is indeed "a folding rifle that is then inoperable", then is seems you should answer NO to the question that asks...

"Is the rifle's overall length less than 30 inches? If less than 30 inches, can the rifle be fired in the shortest configuration?"

It's the Yes answer that gets you busted.

Maybe we need to add a brief statement about inoperability or folding rifle vs. folding stock at this point in the chart. I've been closely following this site and firearms legal issues for 2 1/2 years and I was still inclined to answer yes at that question. I agree with Gene that it's really the rifle that folds, but thats not the intuitive answer. My feeling is that an LE using the chart isn't going to slit hairs on this and he will call it a folding stock unless we provide an alternate definition for this type of rifle configuration that would steer him down the correct path.

mikehaas
08-24-2008, 10:10 AM
Maybe we need to add a brief statement about inoperability or folding rifle vs. folding stock at this point in the chart...
It's there. Here's the question on both flowcharts...
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a5n.gif

If the rifle cannot be fired folded, the answer is NO, right.

If I were to suggest an improvement for the charts, it would be to split this into 2 separate blue boxes, each with it's own "Yes" and "No" buttons. (Not an easy task for the carefully-laid-out PDF file.)

"less than 30 inches?"
NO ===> continue with next question...
YES ===> "Can the rifle be fired in its shortest configuration?"
---------- NO ===> continue with next question...
---------- YES ==> ILLEGAL

Wildhawk66
08-24-2008, 11:28 AM
My perfectly legal SU16 just failed the test!!!

Registered Assualt Weapon...No
AR or AK...No
Barrel less than 16"...No
In appendix A?... No
Chambered In .50 BMG?...No
Overall less than 30"...No
Detachable Mag...Yes
Does the rifle have any of these...folding stock... Yes

These are the steps I followed and I did answer "no" at the point your referencing. The problem is that I still got an "illegal" at the end of the quiz because I answered "yes" at the "folding stock" features question that appears later in the quiz. The way the chart is set-up now, an SU16 passes the "can it be fired" question just fine, but once you get to the 12276.1(C) features question most people will still answer that it has a folding stock (theres nothing at this questions that would guide you to do otherwise) and the rifle will fail. I would recommend adding something at the features question that clarifies a folding stock vs. a folding rifle.

mikehaas
08-25-2008, 3:25 PM
...I would recommend adding something at the features question that clarifies a folding stock vs. a folding rifle.
That sounds like a good idea.

The backside of the PDF is where I pulled the supporting information to display on the appropriate page. I just double-checked - there was a section on thumbhole stocks I hadn't included (is there now), but nothing that addresses the "folding stock vs. a folding rifle" other than that "does it fire folded" question.

Since the pdf version and the interactive version should ideally stay in sync, perhaps those who designed the pdf version should be given a chance to comment?

Wildhawk66
08-25-2008, 5:41 PM
I agree that the .pdf and interactive versions should be the same. Thank you for takng this under advisement.

mikehaas
08-26-2008, 5:09 PM
I agree that the .pdf and interactive versions should be the same. Thank you for takng this under advisement.
Just doin' my job. (I'm a volunteer.)

The interactive version will stay the same as the pdf. If the pdf creators change their document, just tell me where I can get the new one and we'll sync 'em up again.

mikehaas
08-26-2008, 6:04 PM
Having not heard a discouraging word - informing Paul Payne, Ed Worley and Chuck Michel of the tool...
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/flowchartbanner468x60.gif (http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi)

Check out the NRA Members' Councils of California homepage:
http://calnra.com/

And the "Legislative Info and Contact Tools" page...
http://calnra.com/legs.shtml

Also added into the banner rotation at AmmoGuide.com (http://AmmoGuide.com)

SunriseF150
08-27-2008, 3:07 PM
That is awesome. Thanks for doing this.

thisismyboomstick
09-12-2008, 8:57 PM
Wow. That looks really good.

I have to commend you and Redhorse for doing such a great job with my flowchart. I'm glad it has made a positive impact.

Patriot
09-12-2008, 9:05 PM
Superb :cheers2:

Kestryll
09-12-2008, 10:46 PM
So how do I install a copy of this on the Calguns server?
;)

technique
09-12-2008, 10:56 PM
That Sir, is pimpin!!!!

mikehaas
09-14-2008, 12:45 PM
So how do I install a copy of this on the Calguns server?
;)
Hey, Paul! I can put together a package with directions. There is basically a single cgi (goes into cgi-bin) and a single directory (at the httpd root) that contains a little html and the graphics.

Let's work out the details in email if you want to. (FYI, I asked Payne if he minded if the tool stayed on calnra and he said no problem, so whatever you want to do is fine, sir. Your option.)

If we move it, I'll redirect the current URL at calnra to the calguns implementation so there won't be duplicate tools or 404 errors ("Page not found").

Mike

PS. Appropriate "Thanks" and "You're welcome"s to your kudos, fellow calgunners! The original producers of the PDF had a great idea - this is simply their genius in another form. Glad to help. Hey, it's my job - I'm a volunteer.

notnowjohn
09-14-2008, 2:54 PM
http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgiOnce suggestion: consider renaming it to something like "aw-flowchart.cgi" as you may want more interactive flowcharts to navigate other gun-related legalese. It'll be easier for people to remember than "flowchart.cgi" and "flowchart2.cgi".

mikehaas
09-19-2008, 9:34 PM
Once suggestion: consider renaming it to something like "aw-flowchart.cgi" as you may want more interactive flowcharts to navigate other gun-related legalese. It'll be easier for people to remember than "flowchart.cgi" and "flowchart2.cgi".
Thanks for the suggestion but I named it consistently with the original pdf file, which is "flowchart.pdf".

And keep in mind, that whatever the physical name on the website, a webmaster can easily redirect to it from another name. In fact, that's another option open to us, kestryll - to create a small html file on calguns that redirects to the calnra cgi.

Or we can leave it the way it is - we're flexible.