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AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-22-2008, 1:23 PM
Here is a little back story first.

I recently ran into a little trouble on gun broker for an item I won from an out of state seller. The seller claimed that he did not want to drive an hour to the nearest fedex store to ship the revolver and wanted to use his FFL to ship the revolver U.S. mail. The FFL refused to ship the revolver for him and the seller refused to complete the transaction. I later find out the seller put a "Non-Bidding Buyer Alert" against me even though the seller refused to ship. This was not a FFL consignment sale and the revolver is in fact on the California "safe" handgun roster. It seems to me this particular FFL is California scared and just refused regardless of 12072(f)(1).

Correct me if I am wrong, but 12072(f)(1) does not apply to private sellers, and it is legal for private sellers to ship a firearm from out of state directly to a FFL.

I was being a gentleman about the situation and wrote a kind email to gunbroker explaining the situation hoping to help the seller avoid any kind of fees. But now since this "Non-Bidding Buyer Alert" I am not going to be so nice. I would hate to rake this guy under the coals and not have my information correct.

Thank You

Librarian
08-22-2008, 1:45 PM
Here is a little back story first.

I recently ran into a little trouble on gun broker for an item I won from an out of state seller. The seller claimed that he did not want to drive an hour to the nearest fedex store to ship the revolver and wanted to use his FFL to ship the revolver U.S. mail. The FFL refused to ship the revolver for him and the seller refused to complete the transaction. I later find out the seller put a "Non-Bidding Buyer Alert" against me even though the seller refused to ship. This was not a FFL consignment sale and the revolver is in fact on the California "safe" handgun roster. It seems to me this particular FFL is California scared and just refused regardless of 12072(f)(1).

Correct me if I am wrong, but 12072(f)(1) does not apply to private sellers, and it is legal for private sellers to ship a firearm from out of state directly to a FFL.

I was being a gentleman about the situation and wrote a kind email to gunbroker explaining the situation hoping to help the seller avoid any kind of fees. But now since this "Non-Bidding Buyer Alert" I am not going to be so nice. I would hate to rake this guy under the coals and not have my information correct.

Thank You
This is correct: Correct me if I am wrong, but 12072(f)(1) does not apply to private sellers, and it is legal for private sellers to ship a firearm from out of state directly to a FFL. per the CA DOJ (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2) I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?

No. The requirement to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number only applies to holders of valid FFLs.


So, the seller seems to have created a bind. His FFL will not ship it, perfectly within the FFL's rights, and US Mail will not permit a non-FFL to ship except to FFLs (as for smithing/repairs or warranty work) and the seller doesn't care to drive to a FedEx hub.

There's the additional problem of finding a CA FFL who will receive the shipment from the out of state private individual. I don't see how USPS could distinguish shipping to a CA FFL for transfer from shipping to a smith or manufacturer, but .gov has weird and wonderful powers, apparently.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-22-2008, 1:59 PM
This is correct: per the CA DOJ (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2)

Thanks very much for the reply.

There's the additional problem of finding a CA FFL who will receive the shipment from the out of state private individual.

I do have an FFL willing to receive the firearm so that wouldn't have been a problem.

I even offered to send a Fedex or UPS call tag out to pick the revolver up but that fell on deaf ears (or eyes in this case). It was a no reserve auction and I'm starting to think the seller didn't get what he wanted out of the sale and used the FFL excuse.

EOD Guy
08-26-2008, 7:43 AM
This is correct: per the CA DOJ (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2)

So, the seller seems to have created a bind. His FFL will not ship it, perfectly within the FFL's rights, and US Mail will not permit a non-FFL to ship except to FFLs (as for smithing/repairs or warranty work) and the seller doesn't care to drive to a FedEx hub.



You have part of that wrong. Unlicensed individuals cannot mail handguns for any reason. There is no exception for repairs.

sorensen440
08-26-2008, 7:49 AM
You have part of that wrong. Unlicensed individuals cannot mail handguns for any reason. There is no exception for repairs.

Thats incorrect
unless you meant through usps
fedex and ups is ok

1911su16b870
08-26-2008, 7:53 AM
If the guy has already put a non-pay alert on you it sounds like its too late to do anything now...but FWIW being generous with cash is always a good way to get what you want, "Hey, I understand that its a long, 1 hour drive to get to FedEx and ship me that revolver, how about I throw in another $20 for your troubles?" Since the Phoenicians invented coin, its allways a good way to motivate people. :)

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-26-2008, 8:55 AM
If the guy has already put a non-pay alert on you it sounds like its too late to do anything now...but FWIW being generous with cash is always a good way to get what you want, "Hey, I understand that its a long, 1 hour drive to get to FedEx and ship me that revolver, how about I throw in another $20 for your troubles?" Since the Phoenicians invented coin, its allways a good way to motivate people.


I even offered to send a Fedex or UPS call tag out to pick the revolver up...

Hell, I gave the guy the next best thing. Didn't even have to leave his house.

I seriously hope gunbroker does not make the "non-paying bidder alert" stick. I gave gunbroker the entire email correspondence showing the seller was willing to accept my bid and later backing out.

Roccobro
08-26-2008, 11:34 AM
You have part of that wrong. Unlicensed individuals cannot mail handguns for any reason. There is no exception for repairs.

FuD!


Ayearefifteen- Is there a way to label him a deadbeat seller? Or reply to his negative comment sith FACTS that you did bid AND pay?

Sounds like a loser to me that needs his nose tweaked.

Justin

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-26-2008, 11:56 AM
FuD!


Ayearefifteen- Is there a way to label him a deadbeat seller? Or reply to his negative comment sith FACTS that you did bid AND pay?

Sounds like a loser to me that needs his nose tweaked.

Justin

Unfotunately (or maybe fortunately) I did not get a chance to pay. After his FFL refused to ship the revolver for him he flat out told me he wouldn't sell it to me.

Gunbroker was forwarded the email correspondence so hopefully they will make the right decision.

I'm not ready to get vendictive yet, but if the "non-paying bidder" sticks I'll throw a deadbeat seller at him.

Roccobro
08-26-2008, 12:50 PM
Cool. Keep us posted.

Maybe a link to the auction????


Justin

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-26-2008, 1:58 PM
Here is the link to the auction...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=106829694#PIC

And before anyone says, "but it says in the description he doesn't ship to California," my first email sent was to ask why he would not ship and if he would make an exception. His reply was "...I thought it was illegal, if it is legal I will sell it to you. Its a very beautiful gun you will not be sorry."

Roccobro
08-26-2008, 2:15 PM
That is nice....

Librarian
08-26-2008, 2:34 PM
You have part of that wrong. Unlicensed individuals cannot mail handguns for any reason. There is no exception for repairs.

Oh, rats.

You're right - USPS doesn't have an exemption for non-licensees. I don't know what I was thinking.

Mea culpa.

1911su16b870
08-26-2008, 3:54 PM
Hell, I gave the guy the next best thing. Didn't even have to leave his house.

I seriously hope gunbroker does not make the "non-paying bidder alert" stick. I gave gunbroker the entire email correspondence showing the seller was willing to accept my bid and later backing out.

Not to be contentious...but call him or pm him, hey how can I help cover your time ($) to make this deal go through? I want this to be a win-win transaction. Just a try...sometimes you can't fix laziness/stupidity if the guy just doesn't want to deal. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

dfletcher
08-26-2008, 3:54 PM
A failure to communicate is always the deficiency of the person having greater information. If he did not specify the gun must be sent from an FFL that is his error. On the other hand, you knowing it is forseeable that a seller might choose to ship a handgun through an FFL and that an FFL would have to use CFLC, something they may not want to do, should made that clear to the seller.

Having said that, I think the damaging feedback should be removed and you can contact GB to make that request. Based on the info provided I think the negative feedback on this matter is entirely out of line. You can certainly leave negative feedback on him and post response to his feedback on you.

Roccobro
08-26-2008, 4:06 PM
You think he is leaving poor feedback for you just so he can get a free re-listing (besides selling it for less than his BIN price)?

Justin

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-26-2008, 6:21 PM
You think he is leaving poor feedback for you just so he can get a free re-listing (besides selling it for less than his BIN price)?

Justin

I do believe he's putting in the non-paying bidder alert to avoid any commission fees he would have to pay to gun broker since I won the bid. Since he refused to follow through with the sale all those fees would have to be out of his pocket. You could be correct as well.

Not to be contentious...but call him or pm him, hey how can I help cover your time ($) to make this deal go through? I want this to be a win-win transaction. Just a try...sometimes you can't fix laziness/stupidity if the guy just doesn't want to deal. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

As I said before, I offered to pay not only for the shipping but for the additional costs of sending a call tag for ups or fedex out to his address to pick up the package from him. (My company does a ton of shipping through ups so it really isn't that expensive.) Can't think of a better way to fix laziness/stupidity/inconvenience/pain in the ___ than that. ;)

I will deffinately keep this updated. I have a good feeling gunbroker will see this my way especially with the email correspondence that I have.

paladin4415
08-26-2008, 7:04 PM
He just didn't get his price and now he's backing out. Your winning bid is way under his BIN and I'm sure thats the problem. He didn't want to pay extra for the reserve auction and now it's bitting him on the arse.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
09-08-2008, 5:00 PM
Alright, I have a little update. The seller is now on board with the sale if I send out a call tag to his house with the payment.

Now my new problem is my FFL, despite being directed to the California DOJ web site, is now convinced that private sellers have to obtain a CFLC to ship to California.

*sigh*

I am pretty much done fighting/debating/arguing with FFL's. Anyone else in the area wants about $100+$35 to transfer this revovler and I can only imagine the kind of FUD i'll hear from them about a private out of state transfer.

bigthaiboy
09-08-2008, 5:18 PM
Have you tried all the usual suspects such as Cold War Shooters, Ammo Bros, Ade's, who seem to be better informed about FFL law than most. It's a bit of a drive from Burbank, but after all this grief, it's only an extra few miles to drive to make this happen.

motorhead
09-08-2008, 11:32 PM
the repair exemption allows the mfr./ffl to ship your own gun back to you, a non-ffl. no mail, ups or fedex.

tenpercentfirearms
09-09-2008, 5:19 AM
Alright, I have a little update. The seller is now on board with the sale if I send out a call tag to his house with the payment.

Now my new problem is my FFL, despite being directed to the California DOJ web site, is now convinced that private sellers have to obtain a CFLC to ship to California.

*sigh*

I am pretty much done fighting/debating/arguing with FFL's. Anyone else in the area wants about $100+$35 to transfer this revovler and I can only imagine the kind of FUD i'll hear from them about a private out of state transfer.Try your FFL one more time. The answer is clear.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2

I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?
No. The requirement to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number only applies to holders of valid FFLs.

If he has e-mail, simply e-mail the FFL the information. If the FFL still says no, call him a moron and then go somewhere else.

ETD1010
09-09-2008, 9:53 AM
Our shop is an hour from Burbank, but worst case scenario, we'll accept it from PP shippers. PM me if you need us. and good luck with the transfer details.

1911su16b870
09-09-2008, 10:03 AM
Great News! Good luck :lurk5:

Alright, I have a little update. The seller is now on board with the sale if I send out a call tag to his house with the payment.

Now my new problem is my FFL, despite being directed to the California DOJ web site, is now convinced that private sellers have to obtain a CFLC to ship to California.

*sigh*

I am pretty much done fighting/debating/arguing with FFL's. Anyone else in the area wants about $100+$35 to transfer this revovler and I can only imagine the kind of FUD i'll hear from them about a private out of state transfer.